From: Ladder Tower or Tower Ladder?

[MoFire390 118]

ok quick question. what is the difference between a ladder tower and tower ladder? every time we sign on with our truck and LT_ responding control corrects us and says Tower Ladder _ you are responding.

This question was moved from another thread, because it's a good topic

[dadbo46 50]

Ladder tower, tower ladder, aerial tower, etc......they're all ladder companies. Drop the adjective and just call the rig a ladder !

[EJS1810 7]

ok quick question. what is the difference between a ladder tower and tower ladder? every time we sign on with our truck and LT_ responding control corrects us and says Tower Ladder _ you are responding.

You can call it what you want. I'm sure the county has "Standard Designations" for apparatus and that is what they are instructed to use. if someone started calling out as "Pumper XYZ" responding, the correct echo would be "Engine XYZ" responding. I know Westchester did come up with standard designations under a previous Commissioner (I forget his name but he was the guy from Baltimore County). Thats when the "Quick-Attack" Designation was changed.

[helicopper 1,050]

Whatever they're called they should be consistent with National or State resource typing guidelines so everyone knows what the capabilities are and we advance our NIMS compliance.

[MoFire390 118]

what is the "correct" term used in NIMS

[Union241 3]

The way it was explained to me was that whatever the fuctionality of the boom is would be the dominant factor as to what it would be designated as. For example, something like a Snorkel or an Aerialscope would be classified as a Tower Ladder because the boom is pretty much there to support the tower at the end of it. Something more like a regular Pierce or Sutphen would be a Ladder Tower because of the fuctional ladder on it.

Whatever they're called they should be consistent with National or State resource typing guidelines so everyone knows what the capabilities are and we advance our NIMS compliance.

I agree 100%. If we're going to be required to be NIMS compliant in order to recieve such things as grants, every county in every state should get their act in gear and instead of talking about being NIMS compliant, should actually take a step towards being NIMS compliant

[x648eng119 2]

Lol, I always loved that when I worked at 60 control, and still to this day, I break stones with the guys from your department about it.

Technically, your truck, as with many of the trucks in this county, it's a Ladder Tower. Rigs like TL2 (Port Chester) and TL57 (BHFD's Aerialscope) is a true Tower Ladder. Ladder Towers are the ladders that have the big railings off the stick that allow you to climb and perform work off the stick as well as the bucket. Tower Ladders, only have small ladders on the stick for emergency egress in case the lowering devices fail. Some companies, I believe Aerialscope is one of them, prefer you repel from the bucket if you have to get out, rather than climb down the dinky ladder.

Anyway, as far as Westchester County is concerened...... IF IT HAS A BUCKET ON IT, IT'S A TOWER LADDER!!!!! None of the buckets in Westchester have a Ladder Tower designation.

Of course, there's always a few exceptions to the rules... ie, Fairview's ladder 1. It has a bucket.... no TL Designation...

I hope that clears it up for you..

[Bnechis 3,961]

Whatever they're called they should be consistent with National or State resource typing guidelines so everyone knows what the capabilities are and we advance our NIMS compliance.

Ok I'll Bite......Tanker #3

Under National typing is it a truck with water or an airplane?

[helicopper 1,050]

Ok I'll Bite......Tanker #3

Under National typing is it a truck with water or an airplane?

Interestingly enough, there is no typing of airplanes in the FEMA stuff thus far. In the fireline handbook, they are described as "air tankers" so I think the distinction would be "heli", "air", and either "water tender" or simply "tanker".

[SteveOFD 176]

According to FEMA's Typed Resource Definitions -Fire & Hazardous Materials Resources there are no Ladder Trucks. Their classification for this resource is Fire Truck - Aerial (Ladder or Platform). See page nine of the above link.

[Turborich 12]

Ok, so technically speaking a true Ladder Tower device consists of a pair of longitudinally extending, laterally spaced apart truss members and a plurality of longitudinally spaced ladder rungs interconnecting the truss members. Each truss member includes an upper hand rail, a lower rung rail being spaced below and lying in a common plane with the upper hand rail, and a plurality of braces extending between and interconnecting the upper hand rail and lower rung rail of each truss member. The ladder rungs of each section extend between and interconnect the rung rails of the truss members thereof. A bucket with a capacity for firefighters/ potential victims is hinged to the end of this structure. Most conventional aerial platform devices are of this type and examples can be seen in the E-one '95 mid or rear mount platform, Crimson, Pierce, ALF, Metz, a whole lot of others....eg. Arlington's tower, Tarrytown TL78, Peekskill's tower, Yonkers' tower(s)...etc

so,

the ladder looking from the turntable appears to look like this -

[___]

However, in a true Tower Ladder the longitudinally extending members are solid in a boxed beam type of construction traditionally consisting of telescoping sections with solid exterior which generally do not incorporate a truss design (Sutphen aerials are the only exception to this rule as the telescoping box beams incorporate a trussed design with a "huckbolt" assembly, but that's an entirely different soapbox). These aerial devices generally have a small "escape ladder" built on the top of the beam which may or may not have siderail protection (except Mount Vernon which has no ladder for some reason). These vehicles were pioneered by Baker/ Aerialscope and were made wildly popular by FDNY. eg. Hartsdales tower, Mount Vernon, Bedford hills, Rombout, New Hamburg, Hyde Park.. blah blah...

so,

the ladder looking from the turntable appears to look like this -

I-------I

I____I

Hope this clears things up.

Rich

*Note I said longitudinally extending member at least once or twice..

Edited March 3, 2008 by Turborich

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Good explanation Rich!

To put his a bit more simply:

A Tower Ladder as he said is a bucket on a open or closed in boxed boom with nothing more then an emergency escape ladder welded onto it that is not designed for continous climbing.

A Ladder Tower is nothing more then a regular aerial ladder with a bucket attached to it.

A snorkel would be considered an articulating aerial device.

[EJS1810 7]

A snorkel would be considered an articulating aerial device.

Articulating Aerial Device 2 Responding! :lol:

[res6cue 67]

The correct terminology is ELEVATING PLATFORM.

Every other term used to describe them are colloquialisms, semantics and regional/local terminology.

Although there is something to be said for using Tower-Ladder to describe an AerialScope or Sutphen type device that uses a box boom with no ladder proper; while using Ladder-Tower to describe a fully functional aerial ladder with a bucket at the tip. Then of course you get into devices like a Snorkel or AeroChief, which are also elevating platforms, but of the articulating kind without any climbing device at all.

I guess it's the same discussion for what the difference between a Rescue-Pumper and Pumper-Rescue are. If it's a rescue truck with a limited sized pump/tank, then it's the former term. If the rig's primary function is that of a pumper with rescue capability, then it's the latter term.

[IzzyEng4 427]

A tower ladder, ladder tower, elevating platform, articulating platform, telescoping elevated platform and combination telescoping articulating platform are just manufacturer designations on the type of aerial apparatus.

[firemoose827 324]

Just to show the differences between regions and dispatch terminology, up here we call;

Snorkels- A boom with an enclosed platform without ladder.

Aerial Ladder- A straight stick ladder truck with no platform.

Tower Ladder- A straight stick with an enclosed platform on the end.

All photo credits go to "CNY Firetrucks". Thanks.

[res6cue 67]

Actually, the term "Elevating Platform" is an NFPA definition in 1901 that encompasses a wide range of aerial apparatus, including every type mentioned in this thread.

[Remember585 815]

Does it TRULY make a difference?

An IC may call for a ladder Mutual Aid not caring if it is a bucket or stick. It may be for the personnel and equipment.

If they ask for a Tower Ladder, it's usually for the bucket, and it's usually to help with a specific task. Such as a ladder pipe or assisting with a rescue that a stick may not be prudent in.

Chief Officers should know what they are getting from their neighbors. It won't kill them to leave the homefront once in a while to visit another fire station. (But God forbid all of your Chiefs are out of town at the same time, you may get chastized by the EMTBravo forum readers!)

Hey Mofire - it's only called "Tower Ladder 8" because you guys spent sooooo much money labeling it "LT-8!!!!"

J/K of course!

It doesn't matter in our town, we like to think of it as "Aerial Quint Assault Pumper Truck Vehicle #44." It rolls right off the tounge, doesn't it?!

[MoFire390 118]

Good explanation Rich!

To put his a bit more simply:

A Tower Ladder as he said is a bucket on a open or closed in boxed boom with nothing more then an emergency escape ladder welded onto it that is not designed for continous climbing.

A Ladder Tower is nothing more then a regular aerial ladder with a bucket attached to it.

A snorkel would be considered an articulating aerial device.

thanks ALS for putting it in terms I could understand.

[MoFire390 118]

Does it TRULY make a difference?

An IC may call for a ladder Mutual Aid not caring if it is a bucket or stick. It may be for the personnel and equipment.

If they ask for a Tower Ladder, it's usually for the bucket, and it's usually to help with a specific task. Such as a ladder pipe or assisting with a rescue that a stick may not be prudent in.

Chief Officers should know what they are getting from their neighbors. It won't kill them to leave the homefront once in a while to visit another fire station. (But God forbid all of your Chiefs are out of town at the same time, you may get chastized by the EMTBravo forum readers!)

Hey Mofire - it's only called "Tower Ladder 8" because you guys spent sooooo much money labeling it "LT-8!!!!"

J/K of course!

It doesn't matter in our town, we like to think of it as "Aerial Quint Assault Pumper Truck Vehicle #44." It rolls right off the tounge, doesn't it?!

rotflmao

Oh..ok so if you are working I should say "Aerial Quint Assault Pumper Truck Vehicle #8 responding"???

J/K it wll be "88buttercup3 responding" hahahahaha.

[Oswegowind 17]

It isn't 88buttercup3, it is the patented by me,88brontosaurus1 responding!

Edited March 4, 2008 by Oswegowind

[Turborich 12]

Really the only reason I wrote that was so I could post the term "longitudinally extending member" multiple times in one post...

really..

[Remember585 815]

J/K it wll be "88buttercup3 responding" hahahahaha.

I don't care what you guys call it - just get it out!!!!

[EJS1810 7]

When Mahopac Engine Co. 2 had the Tower (18-5-1) assigned to us before they built the new headquarters, I would refer to our second piece as an Engine with a really tall deck gun