Upstate hunter spots Long Island FD SUV miles from home

[spin_the_wheel 460]

That part remains a mystery, since the Board Of Fire Commisioners refuses to make the terms of that Chiefs compensation package public. All that is known is that he makes AT LEAST $190,000 in salary, but the additonal compensation is unknown.

Still, as a taxpayer of that particular district, I find it a waste of money. This Chief lives 1/2 mile from the firehouse. If the District wants to give him a car, let them get him an economical and fuel efficient Honda Civic or similar. If he needs bigger, let him use one of the department's 2 Utility Suburbans or Ford F-350 crew cab which sit dormant for at least 50% of the year.

I know many PD's, FD's, and Muncipalities issue their employees vehicles. In many cases, I view this as a complete waste of money, even if it's part of their compensation package. For example, my local Building Department drives around in large Crown Victorias Or Chevrolet Impala's (no, most aren't ex-PD). It's only a single person in the vehicle. Why can't they use a car that's more economical.

I also hear that a volunteer department in Dutchess County pays for the fuel in their Chief's PERSONAL OWNED VEHICLES! If that is true...then that is absurd!

I would be interested to see how much money is saved in fuel costs if this person didn't have a vehicle, shared a vehicle, or had a more efficient vehicle.

This whole issue needs to be looked at from top to bottom, especially considering skyrocketing fuel costs. Also, the enviromental impact needs to be taken into consideration.

As far as the gas costs...Im sure your district gets the government rate which is still under $2 a gallon. Just because the pump at the corner is close to $4, thats not what FD's and PD's pay for gas.

Edited March 3, 2008 by Ladder47

[x648eng119 2]

There are a lot of good arguments here, and I've really enjoyed reading this entire thread over for the last 20 minutes....BUT....

I think there are a few things most people are neglecting to keep in mind here.

1. This chief is from Long Island... I know there are a few members from L.I. on the forums, but not that many... and what about from this chiefs department.... we are all speculating, and we don't have the whole picture here. What are the Dept/District rules... maybe they are allowed to do this. Maybe he paid for the gas on his own. Maybe he will be purchasing the car at the end of his term, so he takes care of it.

2. As previously stated, nowhere did I see it say exactly what this chief was doing upstate. I'll tell you this much... April 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003 (and hopefully again this April) you would have seen not 1, not 2, but 3, yes, THREE Croton Chiefs cars going up Route 17 through BINGHAMTON!!! Why, NYS FIRE ACADEMY!!! Again, as previously stated, he could have been on his way back from Montour Falls, or anywhere else for that matter, maybe an Apparatus dealer, and made a pit stop.

I'm not being critical of anyone on the site, but maybe it's a good idea to have the whole story, and have the story straight before jumping on a chief, an agency, or anybody for that matter. Just my 2 cents

Edited March 3, 2008 by x648eng119

[firemoose827 324]

except for any meetings the chiefs have to go to couldnt the same thing be said for every vol in the dept using his own POV?

Yes. But are we going to establish a fuel account for 56 members of a dept? Or would a re-imbursement program for mileage to and from classes work better?

Nobody changed the rules while "you or whoever" were rising up thru the ranks, when you started the pay was zero and now that "whoever is the chief" the pay is zero. Is it a very time consuming endever, yes, does it make it difficult to retain good members yes, that is why some dept's started "pension plans" to give back something for all the sacrifice.

I dont believe, and of course it is my opinion, that a chief deserves any benefits that go outside the scope of being the fire chief. The chiefs car is not a personal vehicle to be driven to points where you can't respond from, unless you are on dept business. Should you be able to take a fd vehicle to the Montour Falls Fire Academy, of course, To Giants Stadium I dont think so.

and this is not a bash on vol firefighters it is a rant against the perception that i am owed something for doing what i was going to do anyway, for free.

You Highlite "FOR NOTHING" isnt that what the word volunteer means?

I see your point and respect your opinion. In my dept they also have benefits for us as members who volunteer our free time, like a full weight room, pool table, large screen tv (given to us by the auxilliary and NOT purchased with "tax payers money") a wash bay to wash your personal car, and a old converted village cop car to be used by the members to travel to class and any county level meeting or training.

With a Chief Officer, they travel to more meetings than the regular member, and the other meetings are scattered all over the county, not just at your station. A member travels 5 miles to his/her station for a meeting, so do the chiefs, but than the chiefs may have to travel an additional 10 miles the next night for a county chiefs meeting, than 10 more miles the next week for a county fire coordinators meeting...I just dont think its that much of a tragedy to give a Chief a small fuel account, even if its only half of his overall fuel expenses, to help them out. Just my opinion, and not right/wrong.

[firemoose827 324]

Just to focus on this point for a second... The donations were likely made to a charitable organization (IRS 501c3) for the purpose of meeting their fire suppression mission. Were the people donating informed that a percentage of their donation was going to be used to supply employees (that's what the chiefs are in the simplest terms) with vehicles? Are they paying retail value for the vehicle at the end of their term? Are they claiming this "income" on their taxes.

Many, many "charitable organizations" have run afoul of the IRS and other authorities for misuse of funds - even the Red Cross. Remember the outcry after 9/11 when the Red Cross said millions of dollars were going to be put in the Red Cross general fund and not given to victims as the fundraising had indicated. Now, many organizations actually put in their literature the percentage of donations that is used for the management of the organization (such as 9 cents out of every dollar received).

Fire Departments are not exempt from the rules of the IRS and other governing entities. They're just fortunate that they haven't been the target of their scrutiny.

I see what you are saying Chris and value your opinion, but in this case it wasnt "donations", like someone sees us in the middle of the road with a boot and they toss $1.00 in for nothing. We have Fundraisers, as Im sure you are aware of, where the people get something for their money. They Pay for a meal, or a car wash, or a dance....some type of service. Is that still considered "Donation"? Any money raised by an organization should be able to be used by them as they see fit. Granted, if there is a lack of safety equipment for the members and not enough money in the budget than it should be used for something more substantial like turnouts, instead of a chiefs car, but I just wanted to expand on your thoughts.

Stay Safe

Moose

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I have seen a Westchester Chief's car (which will remain nameless) as far away as Brookfield, Connecticut on several occasions...

[x648eng119 2]

I have seen a Westchester Chief's car (which will remain nameless) as far away as Brookfield, Connecticut on several occasions...

Despite the fact that it's another state, Brookfield isn't that far away from Westchester. Hell, I could easily make it from the NW corner of Croton Falls to Brookfield in 10-15 minutes....And that would be doing the speed limit! (Which doesn't happen much for me... lol)

[Guest]

When told of Harper's encounter with the vehicle last fall, Timo said the district's board will look into it and interview the deputy chief once he returns from a trip out of state.

wonder if he took the car?

[AFS1970 504]

I guess it is all perception. Saturday night my wife and I were in Manhattan. While we were walking around trying to decide on what restaurant to have dinner at, I happened to pass a LI Chief's car that was being parked in front of a different restaurant. Two couples got out, I assume one of the four was a Chief in that department. My first thought was not that anyone was misusing anything, but rather that he was being pretty brave leaving a relatively new, clean & marked vehicle parked on the side of a busy Manhattan cross street. But then such thoughts left my head, as they went into their restaurant and we continued onto ours. I didn't give the whole thing too much thought until I read this thread. I can't even remember the district / department for sure, because it's just not that big a deal.

[robert benz 344]

I guess it is all perception. Saturday night my wife and I were in Manhattan. While we were walking around trying to decide on what restaurant to have dinner at, I happened to pass a LI Chief's car that was being parked in front of a different restaurant. Two couples got out, I assume one of the four was a Chief in that department. My first thought was not that anyone was misusing anything, but rather that he was being pretty brave leaving a relatively new, clean & marked vehicle parked on the side of a busy Manhattan cross street. But then such thoughts left my head, as they went into their restaurant and we continued onto ours. I didn't give the whole thing too much thought until I read this thread. I can't even remember the district / department for sure, because it's just not that big a deal.

ok I will bite one more time, what was your perception? that the chief was pretty brave, that such a nice car might be stolen, crashed into? AND THEN HE WOULD HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHY HIS CAR WAS IN MANHATTAN IFO A RESTAURANT, or the other side of it are the "extra" (might be FD members, might not be) people in the vehicle covered by the dept if they are injured in an accident while on personal errands. Are you the driver covered by the FD if you are on personal business?

I guess it is up to each depts by-laws and insurance.

That was a big issue for stopping ride alongs on apparatus.

[emt301 4]

The chiefs car is not a personal vehicle to be driven to points where you can't respond from, unless you are on dept business. Should you be able to take a fd vehicle to the Montour Falls Fire Academy, of course, To Giants Stadium I dont think so.

Ditto.

[Guest feraldan]

This truly is a perception issue.

I imagine there would be a heavy public split on whether or not people even care about the car being used for personal business.

If I were to find out tomorrow that our chief used his car to drive a few hours to go shoot, I wouldn't care. If I found out the fuel and maintenance expenses came directly out of my taxes, I still wouldn't care.

I'm far more agitated by governors who pay a private chauffeur $100K a year to bus them around or dirt bags who collect multiple checks from welfare under different names yet refuse to work or the major charities who have CEO's that clear $200K a year.

With all the abuses our tax dollars and donations suffer, is this really the worst thing we can find to be miffed about?

[helicopper 1,050]

As a former chief I take issue with the notion the we deserve perks such as unlimited use of a chiefs car. Just like volunteering as a firefighter I at one time chose to be a chief officer. I did not expect anything other than the privelege of serving my department and community in the best capacity that I can. Whatever benefit I was given I took humbily and knew what is here today could be gone tomorrow. This goes for service awards as well. Yes alot of time and aggravation comes with the job but we chose to do this and should not feel we deserve anything.

Well said, thanks Chief!

I dont think it is as much a screw you thing as a perception problem. We know the difference, and we cant agree. What do you think the taxpayers are saying at group functions, parties, etc if the subject gets brought up? Come donation time, maybe they wont put a check in the envelope if they think their $$$ are being abused.

Exactly! Perception is everything - especially in emergency services. We may not hear it directly but it will be apparent in the donations received if the perception is that the money is not being used wisely.

As some of you may know from my past posts ,and private im's, I am from Long Island and get bashed every now and then, it comes with the territory I guess. There was a prior thread here where this was brought up and I got bashed for defending the use of a Chiefs vehicle going to and from work no less. I Happen to be running for 3rd assistant in my Dept. this April. If I win and get a car to use I will use it to go to and from work (about 5 miles one way), will I use it to go to a Mets game....no, could I probably. Will I use it to visit my Brother in Suffolk, yes. Will I use it to visit my wifes sister in CT., no way. Will I dig into my own pocket for gas from time to time, of course even though I dont have to. To me it all comes down to common sense, especially when there are people out there who take note of this stuff. To be honest with you 99% of the people in my district could care less about how the FD is run no matter how many Newsday articles are run. The fire tax is only $231 a year. Peanuts compared to the rest of the county and school taxes. So the Chiefs get a county bid vehicle to use, we dont have a paid Chief making $190,000 a year, the tax payers dont have to pay for that, so they are still way ahead of the game. Wear and tear from personal use, come on give me a break, the wear and tear is coming from the over 2000 calls a year my Dept. does, all the "hot" runs produce the wear and tear. Your always going to have some people complain, but the majority are in favor of what we do, at least in my neck of the woods.

Unfortunately there is nothing common about common sense.

2. As previously stated, nowhere did I see it say exactly what this chief was doing upstate. I'll tell you this much... April 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003 (and hopefully again this April) you would have seen not 1, not 2, but 3, yes, THREE Croton Chiefs cars going up Route 17 through BINGHAMTON!!! Why, NYS FIRE ACADEMY!!! Again, as previously stated, he could have been on his way back from Montour Falls, or anywhere else for that matter, maybe an Apparatus dealer, and made a pit stop.

I'm not being critical of anyone on the site, but maybe it's a good idea to have the whole story, and have the story straight before jumping on a chief, an agency, or anybody for that matter. Just my 2 cents

Agreed, it's helpful to have all the information but I think most of us are discussing the issue in general and not the specific use of a vehicle that prompted the article that started this thread.

OK, I gotta ask - y'all couldn't carpool????

I see what you are saying Chris and value your opinion, but in this case it wasnt "donations", like someone sees us in the middle of the road with a boot and they toss $1.00 in for nothing. We have Fundraisers, as Im sure you are aware of, where the people get something for their money. They Pay for a meal, or a car wash, or a dance....some type of service. Is that still considered "Donation"? Any money raised by an organization should be able to be used by them as they see fit. Granted, if there is a lack of safety equipment for the members and not enough money in the budget than it should be used for something more substantial like turnouts, instead of a chiefs car, but I just wanted to expand on your thoughts.

Stay Safe

Moose

Hey, these are all just opinions unless the Attorney General is going to start posting on here! As for fundraisers, I suspect that they are still tax deductible by the donors making them, at least in part, subject to the same rules as other "charitable contributions". This is a good question for a department accountant or attorney. There are limits on how money raised by an organization can be spent - again a good question for the accountant and attorney.

You stay safe also!

[RWC130 594]

This is why UNMARKED VEHICLES is the way to go! lol

OK, in all seriousness here... Someone made a very good point.

Having the vehicle is a perk of being a Fire Chief, a VOLUNTEER Fire Chief.

Totally understandable and respectfully well deserved!!!

Is it possible this Fire Chief was on OFFICIAL BUSINESS? Absolutely!!!

It's not the first time this has happened or the last. Any given day if you drive

by a FDNY Firehouse chances are good you will see a Fire Chief vehicle parked outside the Firehouse

from Long Island, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Etc.

Should ANY Fire Department or Fire District vehicle be allowed to leave that "Response Area"

In my opinion... NO, they should NOT!

But that is just my TWO cents and it does not mean anything.

If a Fire Chief wants to take his Riverhead Long Island Fire Chief vehicle up to

Lake Placid to Ski for the weekend and that Department or District does NOT care

then why should WE?

It's "My Taxpayer Money" Yes it is! If you only knew where some of this "Taxpayer"

money was spent on you would have a STROKE so relax!

Is this any different then taking an Engine, Ladder, Rescue, or ALL of the above

and half the Manpower in 10 mile radius out of town to a Parade or Convention?

I think a lot of the FUN (enjoyment) is taken out of Emergency Services....

and we wonder why we have problems getting NEW members?

If it does not concern YOU then WHO CARES!!!

Life is too short,

ENJOY IT!

[INIT915 1,119]

This is why UNMARKED VEHICLES is the way to go! lol

Rob,

Since I have an umarked, how far can I go???

[x648eng119 2]

OK, I gotta ask - y'all couldn't carpool????

We did!!! 15-20 of us went up for the weekend on a few occasions to take classes together... Aircraft rescue, AVET, confined space concepts... Again... OFFICIAL BUSINESS!!!!!!

[DaRock98 76]

My 2 cents I feel it's a "Perk" for a volly kind of like a thank you chief for all of the time and energy you put in over the years protecting our towns. No I don't think every member of a volly dept should get this same "perk" because as stated before a chief officer has a lot more responsibilities then any other member of a dept and I hope he puts a lot more time and effort into the job. Besides I know in my dept the members do get a few perks themselves. For example free movie passes up to 5 tickets, free pool memberships at the town pool for you AND your family, a work out room in HQ. So I really don't think a car that probably IS being used 80% of the time for dept issues cant be used for personal matters as well. Just don't abuse it.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Is this any different then taking an Engine, Ladder, Rescue, or ALL of the above

and half the Manpower in 10 mile radius out of town to a Parade or Convention?

Great Point

[robert benz 344]

QUOTE(RWC130 @ Mar 3 2008, 08:41 PM)

Is this any different then taking an Engine, Ladder, Rescue, or ALL of the above

and half the Manpower in 10 mile radius out of town to a Parade or Convention?

Rob you bring up a good point. Does / should the dept that sends all that apparatus out of town for a parade backfill with mutual aid? Another thread mentioned too many chiefs leaving the district they serve, what happens when the rigs are tied up in a parade, and a fire call comes in? has it ever happened to anyone on here?

[firemoose827 324]

I just thought of another question, and maybe Ladder47 can elaborate on this for me, but when a Volunteer Fire Chief is issued a vehicle to use, and they are a one vehicle family to begin with, wouldnt the chief just end up taking his personal vehicle off the road for now and use the chiefs vehicle? So he/she is not paying the registration and insurance costs of his personal vehicle that ends up just sitting in his/her driveway? Just a curiousity question so please dont kill me!!!

Is this any different then taking an Engine, Ladder, Rescue, or ALL of the above

and half the Manpower in 10 mile radius out of town to a Parade or Convention?

Excellent point rob. About it being the same thing taking trucks to parades, still uses taxpayers money for the fuel, and takes most of your active membership out of the district.

[Guest FFNick]

I'd like to see people post the rules and restrictions that their FD/District places on the use of Chief vehicles. There is a lot of opinion here, but if the rules state he can, or don't state he can't, then who are we to say.

We all have opinions on this issue, but what are the particular restrictions put on the use of these vehicles? There may be a certain understanding or unwritten "code of ethics" but in reality, I bet there are very few FDs that actually have written rules.

[helicopper 1,050]

I'd like to see people post the rules and restrictions that their FD/District places on the use of Chief vehicles. There is a lot of opinion here, but if the rules state he can, or don't state he can't, then who are we to say.

We all have opinions on this issue, but what are the particular restrictions put on the use of these vehicles? There may be a certain understanding or unwritten "code of ethics" but in reality, I bet there are very few FDs that actually have written rules.

Unfortunately, I bet you're right!

[jack10562 414]

For all anybody knows, the Chief could have been upstate on an official visit with an Albany-area FD, for example, and went on a "Team-Building" excursion out at the Preserve...while discussing events related to the Hudson Valley Volunteer Firefighters Association Convention....or not.....

People discuss business over Golf, why not Hunting?

Personally, I don't have an issue with this. The Middleburgh /Schoharie area has GREAT Hunting opportunities!