Chief Officers Responding Mutual Aid

[jcoppola 52]

Joe,

In no way was that at dig at you or any of the other brothers. Get that out of your head. Hell, my wifes uncles worked out of there. I was just stating my opinions about differences in the fire service. PM me and we'll sit down for coffee and breakfast anytime to talk about opinions. I'll meet ya halfway in Greenwich or my old stomping grounds in Stamford, Bullshead area sound good? Let me know. Goodnight.

Thanks. My biggest mistake (as usual) is "biting" on a topic that I have strong feelings about. I am at peace because I know I respected your opinions even though we disagreed. Thats what the forums are about, and as a moderator, I wish to stand by that credo.

JVC

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I've discussed this in a previous thread some time ago about my feelings on this. If your line officers are worth their weight in salt you do not need another Chief to coordinate their activities on a fire scene where ICS is supposed to be in use. They will fall in line under the appropriate division, sector or group. If they need to add to that then that officer should be used in that position. Allow your line officers to grow and they will be good Chiefs. How many calls do you see Chiefs handling that line officers can easily handle and run ICS on a smaller level to gain experience for when they need to on the bigger incidents.

[Oswegowind 17]

Tom, as usual, very well put. Experience always helps, starting out small is the easiest way to get better at it.

So many chiefs not enough indians is all to common, people need to wake up!

[LCFD968 10]

LOL... WOW some heated discussion going on here.. As a captain going on my 4th year all I can say is I THRIVE on the chiefs not being around. I thrive on the extra experience that I get from the calls I handle and appreciate the past chief that stands by my side (or on the radio) and passes on his knowledge. We are pretty good when it comes to mutual aid, its usually the "Duty Chief" that handles the call and the others stay back (most of the time).

With that being said, what is the difference if they(the chiefs) are all at work or all on mutual aid in the next town over?

Also, on big incidents, if your town goes mutual aid to the next town doesn't that fire house get back filled (which is usually a rig and a chief)? Of course not on your everyday room and content fire but we are talking about the church fire.

Just my (rambling) thoughts...

[FirNaTine 370]

Once again I'll say that if a dept. is dispatched by 60 control to respond for mutual aid, are we not to go? Do we say, nope, can't do it, they have union problems and the city won't address it. That will go over well with the Chiefs of Dept. I'll say it again, when was the last time YOUR(I know the Dept.) dept. refused mutual aid? Huh? What? Can't hear ya. (Trying not to get deleted here).

As far as solidarity in unions is concerned, PM me and we can talk. I can tell you that my by-laws state that no member is allowed to be a "member " of any other dept. (trying not to get deleted again). If ya know what I mean. I can also assure you as a union rep that not one of my 75 members is affiliated with an organization other then the one they are employed with.

I guess ya misunderstood me. What I mean is, if a Dept.'s policy is to call back members on o.t. to man spare apparatus to replace that which was sent out of town on m/a, they'll eventually have to refuse sending companies o.o.t, if they can't get these members to come back. Got It! I don't think it's that hard to undertand. This was even asked of by members of that Dept. your talking about, yet some of our so called Union Brothers in these other depts. don't really care about their cause and fight. They just seem to be concerned with filling their pockets with o.t. As far as that Dept. you mentioned not refusing to send m/a, well that's their stupidity, but I guess they feel obligated to offer it, considering they're always requesting it even for the smallest of Jobs. One day it will come back to haunt them.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

How many Cheifs is enough at an incident? When is it time to draw the line. There was some mention of the FDNY and there policies. Remember a few things, at an all hands fire there are only 2 B.C.'s and 1 D.C. assigned and they are dealing with upwards of 50 members. On the transmission of a 2nd alarm you do get added cheifs to fill specific functions, but as the fire progresses cheifs are often special called as needed with a specific assignment that needs to be filled. Maybe something that could be looked into around here. At any working incident or multiple have a set protocol of what needs to be covered right away and then fill in the rest on a special call basis if the incident escalates. Sounds like it could be a great workshop or lecture series some time in the future. As always just my thoughts, good discussion with many good points of view.

[Guest]

I guess ya misunderstood me. What I mean is, if a Dept.'s policy is to call back members on o.t. to man spare apparatus to replace that which was sent out of town on m/a, they'll eventually have to refuse sending companies o.o.t, if they can't get these members to come back. Got It! I don't think it's that hard to undertand. This was even asked of by members of that Dept. your talking about, yet some of our so called Union Brothers in these other depts. don't really care about their cause and fight. They just seem to be concerned with filling their pockets with o.t. As far as that Dept. you mentioned not refusing to send m/a, well that's their stupidity, but I guess they feel obligated to offer it, considering they're always requesting it even for the smallest of Jobs. One day it will come back to haunt them.

True, no argument with your statement.

Yet the brothers that are not getting anywhere with there fight will continue to take a beating until something is resolved.

Catch a second job at the same time and a residents life is lost because of no fire protection, does it come down on the city or the FD?

You know who will look like crap and who will prevail as the shining stars. The City!

No argument here, just get your facts straight BEFORE you post in the future.

[FirNaTine 370]

True, no argument with your statement.

Yet the brothers that are not getting anywhere with there fight will continue to take a beating until something is resolved.

Catch a second job at the same time and a residents life is lost because of no fire protection, does it come down on the city or the FD?

You know who will look like crap and who will prevail as the shining stars. The City!

No argument here, just get your facts straight BEFORE you post in the future.

What facts?

[Guest]

What facts?

Manning spare apparatus, which doesnt happen, at least on my job and other things you've posted that I haven't forgotten.

I may look dumb, act dumb and seem dumb, but I can assure you, I am not dumb.

PM me if you have a problem with my statement.

[mstrang1 213]

When I was a member of Ardsley FD, one of the issues with MA, both giving or receiving, is the fact that AFD has its own radio frequency, so a Chief Officer was always sent to be a liason between AFD and other companies and/or command for communication purposes. As I have been out of the Dept several years, they may have upgraded the radio systems by now though. AFD also always left at least 1 Chief in the village for coverage.

[Monty 35]

This while the IC is managing a wild span of control and wearing all the other hats mentioned (Safety, Staging Area Manager, OPS, Liaison, Logistics). I don't understand the resistance to put some of these extra people to work in positions commensurate with their experience (Chief, for example) and help alleviate some of the workload on the IC.

FDNY uses a resource unit leader at every multiple alarm fire (alright maybe not 2nds, but every 3rd and higher). Was there a resource unit leader at this fire - there were certainly enough officers to staff it (we won't even start the discussion that you don't even need to be an officer to be a resource unit leader)?

As much as ICS is preached, I don't think the vast majority of people fully understand it or its benefits!

As far as I can tell no. It wasn't as bad as free lancing, but I'm not aware that there was a command post. Listening to the fire radios at one point, there seemed to be several separate groups acting in an uncoordinated way.

There were at least three separate fire ground channels in operation with 46.26 and trunk radios thrown in as well no sign of any consolidated personnel accountability, presumably though each department knew who they had on scene.

Not that this event seems any different from any other typical large M/A event in Westchester .....

[FirNaTine 370]

Manning spare apparatus, which doesnt happen, at least on my job and other things you've posted that I haven't forgotten.

I may look dumb, act dumb and seem dumb, but I can assure you, I am not dumb.

PM me if you have a problem with my statement.

Well good for you and your Dept.. I'm glad some guys respected the request of those members of the Dept. in question. Now that's what I'm talking about. True brotherhood amongst and between Unions! Good for you guys. P.S. Nobody ever said you were dumb. RELAX already.

[jcoppola 52]

Manning spare apparatus, which doesnt happen, at least on my job and other things you've posted that I haven't forgotten.

I may look dumb, act dumb and seem dumb, but I can assure you, I am not dumb.

PM me if you have a problem with my statement.

Hey, you know what? The manning of spare apparatus thing is a HUGE pet-peeve of mine. Allow me to explain why, and when I am done, I bet you'll totally agree with me. Whe Norwalk has a fire that commits all of our FD resources, we backfill our stations strategically (meaning, the ones most centrally located). Who we backfill them with (career or vol) really is not the point here. My problem is that our department won't call back our members to man spares and put em into service, they let the covering companies sit at our stations at the expense of the taxpayer of the covering co. municipality. And in some cases, the covering dept's will hire back OT to fill the created temporary vacancies. Seems a bit unfair to me. I think the only way to address this is thru contract negotiations.

Joe

[Guest]

Hey, you know what? The manning of spare apparatus thing is a HUGE pet-peeve of mine. Allow me to explain why, and when I am done, I bet you'll totally agree with me. Whe Norwalk has a fire that commits all of our FD resources, we backfill our stations strategically (meaning, the ones most centrally located). Who we backfill them with (career or vol) really is not the point here. My problem is that our department won't call back our members to man spares and put em into service, they let the covering companies sit at our stations at the expense of the taxpayer of the covering co. municipality. And in some cases, the covering dept's will hire back OT to fill the created temporary vacancies. Seems a bit unfair to me. I think the only way to address this is thru contract negotiations.

Joe

I said that when we go on mutual aid, we do not man spare apparatus. When we commit all of our resourses at a job within the district, we do call in manpower and man spare apparatus. That is the only time we man spare apparatus, when it is within the district. Certainly not for mutual aid. I'll relax now.

[jcoppola 52]

I said that when we go on mutual aid, we do not man spare apparatus. When we commit all of our resourses at a job within the district, we do call in manpower and man spare apparatus. That is the only time we man spare apparatus, when it is within the district. Certainly not for mutual aid. I'll relax now.

Well, you certainly are lucky then, arent you?

[Guest]

Well, you certainly are lucky then, arent you?

In what way Joe?

I don't understand.

[Oswegowind 17]

He had said that his department does not recall their own manpower to fill in reserve/spare apparatus to cover their jurisdiction, where as your job does. Emergency OT and such...

[Guest]

He had said that his department does not recall their own manpower to fill in reserve/spare apparatus to cover their jurisdiction, where as your job does. Emergency OT and such...

I should have paid more attention.

That's why I'm a civil servant.

Thank you Oswegowind.

[jcoppola 52]

He had said that his department does not recall their own manpower to fill in reserve/spare apparatus to cover their jurisdiction, where as your job does. Emergency OT and such...

Thats exactly what I meant. Thanks.

[firecapt32 282]

That was heated and very interesting to read--heres aquestion to both you union officials-- In New York State the career firefighters have 207-a benifits, i'm sure I dont have to explain them to you guys but heres the question one of your firefighters gets hurt at mutual aid fire --one a career firefighter working as a member of the department. the other is a career firefighter responding as Volunteer department. god forbid they both break a leg and cannot return to their chosen profession--what happenes to them??

Want another question what happens when either of them or both of them come down with --lets say lung cancer-- where do the benifits come from?

just so me questions not bashing any one or critizing anything just interested in the response

[Guest]

That was heated and very interesting to read--heres aquestion to both you union officials-- In New York State the career firefighters have 207-a benifits, i'm sure I dont have to explain them to you guys but heres the question one of your firefighters gets hurt at mutual aid fire --one a career firefighter working as a member of the department. the other is a career firefighter responding as Volunteer department. god forbid they both break a leg and cannot return to their chosen profession--what happenes to them??

Want another question what happens when either of them or both of them come down with --lets say lung cancer-- where do the benifits come from?

just so me questions not bashing any one or critizing anything just interested in the response

Cap,

You were in the system, you know the answer.

It's obvious. If you are ON DUTY, be it a 24 or 10's and 14's, you are covered by the jurisdiction you are employed by. If you are OFF DUTY and get banged up helping your community(which is fine and admirable, but risky due to this very situation) you are SCREWED!!

Let me see???? 3/4's no taxes? Or nothing? I think I know the answer.

Unless of course the career FF/Vol. FF has personal disability insurance to cover him or her. But it is very expensive to purchase. Trust me I know, I'm married to an insurance broker.

That's why my union by-laws state that it is not tolerable. I judge no one for helping their community. It just so happens I live in the community I serve. Even if I didn't, I couldn't be a member of an organization elsewhere.

[jcoppola 52]

Volunteer FD's must carry workman's comp insurance and cover a member injured in the line of duty no matter what their "true" profession is. It gets sticky when that true profession is a career FF. The peer pressure will be worse than trying to get covered. If you have sick time at your job, you use it. If you are willing to take on that chance of getting hurt, thats your own business. We have to remember that this is still the USA and we are afforded many freedoms, one of which is to spend your off time the way you want. What many forget is that many of us IAFF members "bang nails" and do jobs of labor that is protected by unions. What happens if a plumber or builder (who is also a IAFF member) is exposed to asbestos? That can be looked at as maybe line of duty, maybe not. It is a very touchy subject, one that can be debated all day and still not agreed upon.

And, how about this one...what about those members who work for more than one career FD? What happens when they come down with a pulmonary illness??? Which job covers that one?

This is a can of worms that should be left closed.

JVC

[Guest]

And, how about this one...what about those members who work for more than one career FD? What happens when they come down with a pulmonary illness??? Which job covers that one?

JVC

How is that possible Joe?? Unless retired and go to another job?

[jcoppola 52]

How is that possible Joe?? Unless retired and go to another job?

I know a few personally. It is done all the time. 24 hour shift schedules work wonders. Some departments have no provision to enforce otherwise, mine happens to have it but only for members hired after a certain time, and I don't fall under that rule. Man that would be nice...2 pensions!

[FirNaTine 370]

I know a few personally. It is done all the time. 24 hour shift schedules work wonders. Some departments have no provision to enforce otherwise, mine happens to have it but only for members hired after a certain time, and I don't fall under that rule. Man that would be nice...2 pensions!

Do they work in the same or different states?

[jcoppola 52]

Do they work in the same or different states?

Same...OPENLY. Not hiding it from anyone. How could they?

[FirNaTine 370]

Same...OPENLY. Not hiding it from anyone. How could they?

Gotta be honest with ya bro. I never in my life heard of anything like that. It's almost impossible to believe! I can't understand how it's allowed or is it?

[jcoppola 52]

Gotta be honest with ya bro. I never in my life heard of anything like that. It's almost impossible to believe! I can't understand how it's allowed or is it?

Well, believe it...I am telling you the honest to God truth. I really don't want to draw any attention to these people so I am done discussing this. They aren't doing anything wrong, as a matter of fact, I wish I could do it. It'd be a lot better than trying to make money teaching. I think the reason you don't see it more is because it is hard enough to get one FD job, let alone 2.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Same...OPENLY. Not hiding it from anyone. How could they?

In NYS its almost imposible because the state pension system. CT does it differently

[helicopper 1,050]

In NYS its almost imposible because the state pension system. CT does it differently

Thank you for answering my exact question before I even posted it!