Chief Officers Responding Mutual Aid

[Guest]

Some Apparatus info

ON SCENE:

SHFD 2311, 2313, E85, E86, E87, TL38

TFD: 2462, 2463, E80, L37, TL78

IFD: 2201, 2202, L36, R49 FAST

OFD: 2331, 2334, E97, E98, L41, U51 FAST

VFD: 2481, 2486, R9 FAST

PHFD: E189

SHVAC: 7311, 73B1

MPALS: 37M1

TVAC: 81B1

WCDES: Bat 10, Car 2, Car 25, FC 1, C&O Zone 3

WCDOT: Bus (for rehab)

Red Cross, Salvation Army also on location.

RELOCATED to SHFD:

PHFD: 2381, 2382, 2383, E189 (To scene)

OFD: 2331, 2334, E97, L41 (To scene)

BMFD: 2051, TL40

CFD: 2083, E120

RELOCATED to TFD:

IFD: 2201, 2202, L36 (To scene)

DFFD: 2091, TL23

EFD: 2111, E137

Also monitored Ossining FD putting all companies on all runs during this job.

there are so many xxx1 call numbers (the chiefs). i know this gets brought up all the time, but is their really a need to have soooo many chiefs respond to a scene where IC is already established? what about their own districts? seems like a lot of "i wanna play" and not enough i should stay back and take care of the fort.

[DaRock98 76]

there are so many xxx1 call numbers (the chiefs). i know this gets brought up all the time, but is their really a need to have soooo many chiefs respond to a scene where IC is already established? what about their own districts? seems like a lot of "i wanna play" and not enough i should stay back and take care of the fort.

I think thats why depts. also have Asst. chiefs.

[Guest]

I think thats why depts. also have Asst. chiefs.

if you look for xxx2 call signs, they were there too. PHFD had all THREE top dogs there!

[Remember585 815]

if you look for xxx2 call signs, they were there too. PHFD had all THREE top dogs there!

Chiefs are responsible for their people, hence the reason they go. I think you have a valid point about 3 Chiefs going out of town to an incident, but since they are only in the TOWN NEXT DOOR I don't see a big deal with it. We won't send all 3 of ours, sometimes all 3 will go check out the scene in the town next door but will keep themselves available for additional back home.

Remember too that Departments have Deputy Chiefs, Captains & Lieutenants that can (hopefully) run an incident.

[Guest]

go check out the scene in the town next door but will keep themselves available for additional back home.

that's one thing i never understood. you're either on scene or you're not on scene. i guess some people like to have the cake and eat it too.

the other point was good about the deputy's, captains, Lt's... wouldn't it make sense to send them instead of a chief because command was established? the B10, DES Car2, plus all the top dogs from SH and the immediate mutual aid should have been plenty.

i'm only coming from a theoretical stand point, i know "you don't know the whole story unless you were there, go i'll go on my way!

[x129K 1,393]

Too many Chefs spoil the chili......

In my last department, officers were assigned "Mutual Aid Response Departments".... and a M/A fire would bring 1 Chief and 1 Lieutenant (if available). The Captain never got to go play....

[Remember585 815]

Remember too gang, the optimum number of personnel assigned to one "leader" is 5. The range is usually considered 3-7:1. So if your rig goes with 5 members, there should be one Officer. None of us should question why or why not a department sends 1, 2 or 20 Chiefs - that's their perogative. Is it right or is it wrong - who's to decide. Each Department operates differently.

[ny10570 745]

So the officer of the rig supervises his crew and you need a chief for every 5 mutual aid companies. Still no reason for three chiefs to roll up with an engine and a ladder or whatever may be called.

[lad12derff 283]

Chiefs are responsible for their people, hence the reason they go. I think you have a valid point about 3 Chiefs going out of town to an incident, but since they are only in the TOWN NEXT DOOR I don't see a big deal with it. We won't send all 3 of ours, sometimes all 3 will go check out the scene in the town next door but will keep themselves available for additional back home.

Remember too that Departments have Deputy Chiefs, Captains & Lieutenants that can (hopefully) run an incident.

And should also be able to watch the crews that were sent out of town.

[robert benz 344]

here is my 2 cents worth, fires are down everywhere, there are plenty of firefighters from the probie to the chief that need experience at every level. Let the chiefs go and learn something, it may save your butt one day.

Do all the chiefs call one another if they have to go out of town to shop? is it possible all 3 could be at work at the same time?

If they go to the scene to throw orders around, well that has to be addressed right away.

If they go and learn something great, if they go just to get their white helmet dirty well thats another topic.

[FirNaTine 370]

Never mind the Chiefs, how about ffs. who run back to respond m/a to play and get dirty or to cover spare rigs, that are replacing those that were sent o.o.t.. I got a problem with this, especially when a Dept. is fighting for more men and equipment! :angry:

Edited March 1, 2008 by FirNaTine

[TL2L31 8]

These are volunteer departments that were involved.

Edited March 1, 2008 by TL2L31

[robert benz 344]

Never mind the Chiefs, how about ffs. who run back to respond m/a to play and get dirty or to cover spare rigs, that are replacing those that were sent o.o.t.. I got a problem with this, especially when a Dept. is fighting for more men and equipment! :angry:

I am missing something what is wrong with coming back to man spare apparatus? In the career depts you are getting paid to do it. It might free up the m/a depts in to cover your dept while the recall is being completed. I dont know any dept's that are not fighting for more manpower, But if it is an issue that your dept does not call back members on overtime to cover the apparatus, then I agree, dont offer your services. Or if your dept runs below your min manning standard without calling ot, again, you have a problem that has to be addressed.

[FirNaTine 370]

I am missing something what is wrong with coming back to man spare apparatus? In the career depts you are getting paid to do it. It might free up the m/a depts in to cover your dept while the recall is being completed. I dont know any dept's that are not fighting for more manpower, But if it is an issue that your dept does not call back members on overtime to cover the apparatus, then I agree, dont offer your services. Or if your dept runs below your min manning standard without calling ot, again, you have a problem that has to be addressed.

I should have clarified myself Capt.. My comment was directed more towards the smaller Combo Depts. that are use to working with a skeleton crew, usually just Chauffers, who continuosly complain about manpower, but will send an apparatus out on m/a staffed with 3-4 career guys, to a Dept. who is also suffering from the same issue. There doesn't seem to be any solidarity anymore between Unions. If a Dept. requested for m/a can't get any of their own members back to man spare apparatus, to replace that which was sent out of town, then maybe, just maybe, the municipality that is always requesting it will be forced to find some means of increasing its staffing. At least it's a start, it can't hurt. I just can't phathom how the members of these Depts. just eventually accept their poor and dangerous staffing levels, and seem more concerned with sending an apparatus out of town on m/a with a full compliment of men. Screw the neighboring town, and their Government Officials. Whose paying their salaries anyway, the municipality hosting the party? I know I as a taxpayer would be pretty pissed off if my tax dollars were quite often paying for ff. ot to provide fire protection for another juristiction. Just my two cents. I could be wrong also. We'll never know though so long as guys run back for the almighty $$$$$$$$$.

Edited March 1, 2008 by FirNaTine

[biglew 3]

I am not sure why everytime there is a job where M/A is requested, people on this board seem to question why all 3 chiefs have to respond to the fire, I presume becuase they feel that they should stay in their own town in case a there is a fire in their own district.

This is not about people who just want to go get their white helmet dirty as someone mentioned. If you look at the protocol for incident managment, it defines how many chief officers are recommended at different levels.

In years past in the FDNY, you did not have an RUL, safety officer, safety battalion, and rescue balltaion respond to every second alarm. There are legitimate reasons for this level of supervision. They are supervising different aspects of the fire. We have learned over time this is the best way to supervise a fire scene.

With volunteer depts, when a dept is called to cover at someones firehouse, usually a chief from that dept goes to. So you really dont have to worry about an area without a chief. You also have company officers, who are trained to lead and to give direction. When many chiefs go to a fire, it is not a social function. Should conditions deteriorate, and more units are called to the scene, which happened here, where the fast companies were put to work, at least you have chiefs there ready to take an exposure or sector and take command of the units. As long as they park out of the way of firefighting units, we should never worry about having too many chiefs at a particular fire.

There is no substitute for experience and for the towns that dont get big jobs often, this is important OJT for many. You can drill all you want, there is nothing like the real thing. So lets not count the Tahoes and Suburbans at a job, we should be thankful they are there.

[Fireman488 57]

This is not about people who just want to go get their white helmet dirty as someone mentioned. If you look at the protocol for incident managment, it defines how many chief officers are recommended at different levels.

Biglew makes an excellent point.

With more and more departments actively using the Incident Command System, there are many jobs for many chiefs.

Personally, I have served in a number of different capacities on mutual aid, ranging from Staging to Accountability to Safety to Division Supervision, etc, based on the needs of the Incident Commander.

[RescueKujo 130]

If you look at the protocol for incident managment, it defines how many chief officers are recommended at different levels.

In years past in the FDNY, you did not have an RUL, safety officer, safety battalion, and rescue balltaion respond to every second alarm. There are legitimate reasons for this level of supervision. They are supervising different aspects of the fire. We have learned over time this is the best way to supervise a fire scene.

BigLew as was said makes some great points. Here's a thought to ponder....

Chiefs are needed for the following positions on any greater alarms fire...

I.C.

Ops

Safety

others may be needed as Ops and Safety are broken down into smaller divisions. So who's to say what is too many or not enough.

[Bnechis 3,961]

With more and more departments actively using the Incident Command System, there are many jobs for many chiefs.

Personally, I have served in a number of different capacities on mutual aid, ranging from Staging to Accountability to Safety to Division Supervision, etc, based on the needs of the Incident Commander.

This is great, but I think the reason that some are questioning the response of multiple chiefs is because we still have many depts that dont use ICS (beyond the IC) and I've seen a number of MA incidents with dozens of chiefs and "Ex-Chiefs" hanging out, with no assignements. They appear to be there to be able to say they were there. If not functioning as an officer assigned to or by the IC, then they are just taking up space.

[helicopper 1,050]

This is great, but I think the reason that some are questioning the response of multiple chiefs is because we still have many depts that dont use ICS (beyond the IC) and I've seen a number of MA incidents with dozens of chiefs and "Ex-Chiefs" hanging out, with no assignements. They appear to be there to be able to say they were there. If not functioning as an officer assigned to or by the IC, then they are just taking up space.

This while the IC is managing a wild span of control and wearing all the other hats mentioned (Safety, Staging Area Manager, OPS, Liaison, Logistics). I don't understand the resistance to put some of these extra people to work in positions commensurate with their experience (Chief, for example) and help alleviate some of the workload on the IC.

FDNY uses a resource unit leader at every multiple alarm fire (alright maybe not 2nds, but every 3rd and higher). Was there a resource unit leader at this fire - there were certainly enough officers to staff it (we won't even start the discussion that you don't even need to be an officer to be a resource unit leader)?

As much as ICS is preached, I don't think the vast majority of people fully understand it or its benefits!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Remember too gang, the optimum number of personnel assigned to one "leader" is 5. The range is usually considered 3-7:1. So if your rig goes with 5 members, there should be one Officer. None of us should question why or why not a department sends 1, 2 or 20 Chiefs - that's their perogative. Is it right or is it wrong - who's to decide. Each Department operates differently.

Ok, I'll bite. I beg to differ. What happens now when the Chief, 1st Asst, and 2nd Asst are on scene 4 districts away and they get popped for another working structure fire in their home district? I see this alot in Putnam County. One district gets a fire and every department in the county sends at least one chief, even departments whose rigs aren't there! I can understand if your truck goes to send ONE Chief M/A, but these fires end up with a quarter mile of Red/White Suburbans leading up to the scene. I mean, come on, there has to be a point where enough is enough...

As for the idea of "Ex" Chiefs, we don't take that too seriously over in Connecticut, you don't become a "Deputy" Chief after your tenure as Chief is over, but I have seen a few times when an Ex-Chief took command of a scene simply because he was an Ex-Chief, and you know what? It worked out fine. I think we sometimes get too hung up on helmet colors and don't look at the experience of the PERSON wearing the helmet. 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress...

[jcoppola 52]

Ok, I'll bite too...

The way I see it, it all depends on mutual aid pacts in the volunteer services. What do the first arriving bosses want out of the mutual aid resources coming in? My bet is they want manpower 90% of the time. So, if that is the case and whole crapload of white helmets show up, put 'em to work. The way ICS works, even in a system that uses it in an abbreviated fashion, is to assign chiefs to leaders of operational roles. Take the much-discussed church fire. Even though I was not there, I can think of 3 or 4 roles that could be headed up by chiefs other than the IC. How about a chief in charge of fire suppression operations, or a chief in charge of dealing with the media, or a chief in charge of staging...all realistic roles. The sign of a good boss is to be able to serve many roles on an as-needed basis. And while on the topic of staging, if you have no job for a company, yet want to keep them close, STAGE THEM. Why should the chief of an incoming service be any different?

Just some thoughts for what they are worth...

JVC

[TL2L31 8]

They should be assigned roles if on scene.

[Guest]

I should have clarified myself Capt.. My comment was directed more towards the smaller Combo Depts. that are use to working with a skeleton crew, usually just Chauffers, who continuosly complain about manpower, but will send an apparatus out on m/a staffed with 3-4 career guys, to a Dept. who is also suffering from the same issue. There doesn't seem to be any solidarity anymore between Unions. If a Dept. requested for m/a can't get any of their own members back to man spare apparatus, to replace that which was sent out of town, then maybe, just maybe, the municipality that is always requesting it will be forced to find some means of increasing its staffing. At least it's a start, it can't hurt. I just can't phathom how the members of these Depts. just eventually accept their poor and dangerous staffing levels, and seem more concerned with sending an apparatus out of town on m/a with a full compliment of men. Screw the neighboring town, and their Government Officials. Whose paying their salaries anyway, the municipality hosting the party? I know I as a taxpayer would be pretty pissed off if my tax dollars were quite often paying for ff. ot to provide fire protection for another juristiction. Just my two cents. I could be wrong also. We'll never know though so long as guys run back for the almighty $$$$$$$$$.

Once again I'll say that if a dept. is dispatched by 60 control to respond for mutual aid, are we not to go? Do we say, nope, can't do it, they have union problems and the city won't address it. That will go over well with the Chiefs of Dept. I'll say it again, when was the last time YOUR(I know the Dept.) dept. refused mutual aid? Huh? What? Can't hear ya. (Trying not to get deleted here).

As far as solidarity in unions is concerned, PM me and we can talk. I can tell you that my by-laws state that no member is allowed to be a "member " of any other dept. (trying not to get deleted again). If ya know what I mean. I can also assure you as a union rep that not one of my 75 members is affiliated with an organization other then the one they are employed with.

[jcoppola 52]

Once again I'll say that if a dept. is dispatched by 60 control to respond for mutual aid, are we not to go? Do we say, nope, can't do it, they have union problems and the city won't address it. That will go over well with the Chiefs of Dept. I'll say it again, when was the last time YOUR(I know the Dept.) dept. refused mutual aid? Huh? What? Can't hear ya. (Trying not to get deleted here).

As far as solidarity in unions is concerned, PM me and we can talk. I can tell you that my by-laws state that no member is allowed to be a "member " of any other dept. (trying not to get deleted again). If ya know what I mean. I can also assure you as a union rep that not one of my 75 members is affiliated with an organization other then the one they are employed with.

As a union officer of a 130-man union, I can tell you that many of our members INCLUDING ME are affiliated with organizations that are considered fire service organizations (volunteer) and as long as they are not fighting fires or contribute to the fire suppression staffing, there is not a thing we can do about it nor do we care to. There are too many "fires" to fight without worrying about what a member is doing on his/her personal time. I am so sick of hearing this garbage, it does not matter...no union guys are losing jobs because of the volunteer service in our area.

Also, to back my remarks up, I am in constant communication with my IAFF district VP and he has told me that the IAFF does not care to police members who happen to be affiliated with volunteer companies in a non-firefighting way. There are just too many other important things to worry about, like benefits, legislation protecting firefighters, the heart bill, the presumtive cancer bill and I can go on all night.

Face it, its a weak fight, and I won't delete you because I disagree with you. The spewing of false union garbage needs to stop. I can say this as a 9-year union official in the rank of Secretary.

JVC

[Guest]

As a union officer of a 130-man union, I can tell you that many of our members INCLUDING ME are affiliated with organizations that are considered fire service organizations (volunteer) and as long as they are not fighting fires or contribute to the fire suppression staffing, there is not a thing we can do about it nor do we care to. There are too many "fires" to fight without worrying about what a member is doing on his/her personal time. I am so sick of hearing this garbage, it does not matter...no union guys are losing jobs because of the volunteer service in our area.

Easy for you to say, I know the staffing in Norwalk.

Also, to back my remarks up, I am in constant communication with my IAFF district VP and he has told me that the IAFF does not care to police members who happen to be affiliated with volunteer companies in a non-firefighting way. There are just too many other important things to worry about, like benefits, legislation protecting firefighters, the heart bill, the presumtive cancer bill and I can go on all night.

Face it, its a weak fight, and I won't delete you because I disagree with you. The spewing of false union garbage needs to stop. I can say this as a 9-year union official in the rank of Secretary.

JVC

Great, I disagree. That's you're opinion, and I can say that as a 20 year member of the IAFF and a 17 year member as a union official, 13 in the rank of Secretary. If the spewing of false union garbage needs to stop, then stop deleting my posts only. Be fair. I know the deal in Norwalk , Stamford, and in the tri-state area. Define non-firefighting ways? I do agree with your opinions with more important issues designated towards union firefighters but If I can't state my own opinions without being deleted then plenty more should be deleted. I'm not the one spewing false garbage, just backing the facts. I still disagree with the membership in other depts. and know it is not tolerated in other unions.

[biglew 3]

Thank you Rescuekujo and Fireman488 fro the kind words regarding my post.

Sagevigiles, I usually think your on point with your posts, but I have to disagree with your here. I dont see to many chiefs " doing nothing " at fires and I have been around quite a while. having said that, I live in CT ( next town from you) and I lived in NY for 30 years. The ex or past chief is different in NY than in CT a bit. In most NY volly depts, that ex chief will have command authority in the ABSENCE of a chief or company officer at a job. It is not written on turnout gear for ego. Anyway, we got off tangent a bit. Bottom line, chiefs shouldnt be at jobs if their dept is not operating, and if they are there by happenstance, they should assume that they will be given an assignment, period. This standing around doing nothing that has been talked about is not something Ive seen. When a job is under control , and supression ops have been reduced, then you might see a different atmosphere, but not while the battle is being fought.

Question to you union guys that were commenting above. Arent FDNY union members still allowed to be members in volly depts? I was reading your posts and I am a bit perplexed, are you saying that a Norwalk paid FF cannot be a volly FF in another dept on his personal time? Is it something not allowed, but not enforced? You got my curiosity going. Thanks.

[jcoppola 52]

Great, I disagree. That's you're opinion, and I can say that as a 20 year member of the IAFF and a 17 year member as a union official, 13 in the rank of Secretary. If the spewing of false union garbage needs to stop, then stop deleting my posts only. Be fair. I know the deal in Norwalk , Stamford, and in the tri-state area. Define non-firefighting ways? I do agree with your opinions with more important issues designated towards union firefighters but If I can't state my own opinions without being deleted then plenty more should be deleted. I'm not the one spewing false garbage, just backing the facts. I still disagree with the membership in other depts. and know it is not tolerated in other unions.

First of all, I never deleted anything that you posted, and I feel strongly about letting the members post their opinions and respect them. While we are throwing years around, I began my fire service career in 1986 and I am a 4th generation firefighter, so I know the deal.

Definition of Non-Firefighting ways: Associate membership that does not contribute to manpower "strength". Going to family functions of the department that gave you your start, helping out with training, simply "giving back". These are strong feelings bro...it goes way deeper than you can know. I remember where I came from and it is not only accepted by my brother firefighters in Norwalk (and Stamford), IT IS RESPECTED.

Opinions are what this forum is all about and contrary to what you may believe, I respect yours even though I disagree with them. You CAN be a dedicated union member and yet still have respect and gratitute toward an organization that helped you get started in the business. There is no rule that prohibits dedication...it is the very foundation on which our "calling" is built.

[Guest]

First of all, I never deleted anything that you posted, and I feel strongly about letting the members post their opinions and respect them. While we are throwing years around, I began my fire service career in 1986 and I am a 4th generation firefighter, so I know the deal.

Definition of Non-Firefighting ways: Associate membership that does not contribute to manpower "strength". Going to family functions of the department that gave you your start, helping out with training, simply "giving back". These are strong feelings bro...it goes way deeper than you can know. I remember where I came from and it is not only accepted by my brother firefighters in Norwalk (and Stamford), IT IS RESPECTED.

Opinions are what this forum is all about and contrary to what you may believe, I respect yours even though I disagree with them. You CAN be a dedicated union member and yet still have respect and gratitute toward an organization that helped you get started in the business. There is no rule that prohibits dedication...it is the very foundation on which our "calling" is built.

Thank You for not deleting me.

Goes deeper than I will know?? The organizations that got me started were Local 107, Local 1394, Local 628 as well as Local 768 and Local 830(in-laws) Through my uncles and cousins. I need not be preached to about dedication and respect. I am dedicated and respectful to the organization that I started with. These unions. Do what you want, where you want and how you want. I stand by my opinions and facts. No member of my union is a member of another fire "organization". Nor will be.

Preach to the guys in Stamford about dedication to the volunteer "roots", that got laid off in, what, Belltown?

[jcoppola 52]

Thank You for not deleting me.

Goes deeper than I will know?? The organizations that got me started were Local 107, Local 1394, Local 628 as well as Local 768 and Local 830(in-laws) Through my uncles and cousins. I need not be preached to about dedication and respect. I am dedicated and respectful to the organization that I started with. These unions. Do what you want, where you want and how you want. I stand by my opinions and facts. No member of my union is a member of another fire "organization". Nor will be.

Preach to the guys in Stamford about dedication to the volunteer "roots", that got laid off in, what, Belltown?

Ok, your "roots" are with the unions that you are affiliated with, mine happen to be with a volunteer department. That does not diminish my dedication to Norwalk and if you are insinuating that you are way off base. I can't help that things went down in Belltown the way they did, I was a huge supporter of the brothers that got laid off. I helped raise $2,000 to give to the "Family Benefit Fund" and attended the fundraiser in support of them while they were laid off. Most of them were my friends and unfortunately that situation ruined a lot of long-standing friendships. I knew when all was said and done they would be better off and they are now. Remember, there are 2 sides to every story.

Throwing a dig at me about Belltown is uncalled for and unfair.

[Guest]

Ok, your "roots" are with the unions that you are affiliated with, mine happen to be with a volunteer department. That does not diminish my dedication to Norwalk and if you are insinuating that you are way off base. I can't help that things went down in Belltown the way they did, I was a huge supporter of the brothers that got laid off. I helped raise $2,000 to give to the "Family Benefit Fund" and attended the fundraiser in support of them while they were laid off. Most of them were my friends and unfortunately that situation ruined a lot of long-standing friendships. I knew when all was said and done they would be better off and they are now. Remember, there are 2 sides to every story.

Throwing a dig at me about Belltown is uncalled for and unfair.

Joe,

In no way was that at dig at you or any of the other brothers. Get that out of your head. Hell, my wifes uncles worked out of there. I was just stating my opinions about differences in the fire service. PM me and we'll sit down for coffee and breakfast anytime to talk about opinions. I'll meet ya halfway in Greenwich or my old stomping grounds in Stamford, Bullshead area sound good? Let me know. Goodnight.