FAST Team - available or assigned?

[helicopper 1,050]

This question came up because of reading a recent thread but the issue is a much more general one.

Reading incident alerts or listening to jobs develop on the radio, you hear "FAST being put to work" and a new FAST team is requested. Isn't the FAST team an assigned resource? Aren't they there to insure the safety of the firefighters already working on the job and rescue them if they get into trouble? Why are they getting put to work instead of simply using additional companies in staging? Or is it that we don't routinely request additional resources to standby in staging?

I recall discussions in other threads about the use of FAST/RIT teams and how important they are. One point that jumps out at me was the issue of a new FAST team having to repeat all the work done by the FAST team that has been put to work. Doing a size-up, assessing and removing hazards, preparing equipment, etc.

So fire guys, educate this cop type guy!

Thanks!

[firemoose827 324]

Good point brother, and one that needs to be discussed and refined all over.

Here in my county, we have the County Team. When they are called, it is for FAST related ops ONLY. They are not to be used as "Manpower" at all, and this is made clear to all chiefs in our county.

I have seen it before where each dept, or Company is a designated FAST, and can be called, but than you take away that unit for MA purposes...why? I just think a County team is more reasonable. You have members from all over the county so you can atleast get 4-6 members who are not already tied up at the fire, or will soon be. The FAST should be that and only that, otherwise you put your operating crews in jeopardy by switching out and calling for another FAST unit to get there, what do you do in the mean time while waiting for the new FAST to get there? Do you pull your crews out and wait? You should. But it probably doesnt happen, and Im sure theres a few macho types out there who are all foaming at the mouth right now to tell me "We can go a few minutes without a FAST on scene, well be alright. We have made it this far without even having FAST."

I think more thought and planning needs to go into the whole FAST concept and how to better apply it in the fire service. Just one of those Growing pains the fire service is facing and Im sure eventually will be worked out.

Good topic.

Moose

[IzzyEng4 427]

My though on this is that if you have an initial FAST / RIT unit assigned for an alarm and arrive on scene, then they are to remain at thier assigned duty position. If the IC or responding highest ranking officer makes a decision that the responding unit designated FAST / RIT needs to "go to work" because of man power issues, then the IC must immediately call for another FAST / RIT unit. The decision to make a FAST unit a "working" unit on a fire scene must be made prior to thier arrival and not being placed to work while on scene, thus waiting for another cover FAST company to come in, now you have a gap.

The FAST / RIT concept is not really that new, we as firefighters have been assisting and rescuing our own for as long as firefighting has been around in America. We just now refined it and now gave a specific duty to one company on scene. With the two-in two-out rule, we can still cover with out having a FAST unit on scene initially. But as soon as we have the designated unti on scene, ready to go, that unit should remain as assigned.

The fine line questions are "how long will it take the inital FAST / RIT to get here" and "If I put them to work, how long will it take for another unit to arrive"? Well my answer to that is a department should fill out their assignment for an alarm, order a FAST / RIT unit and an additional resourse comany to be utilized for manpower.

Just remember, if you request it, they will come.

[AFS1970 504]

In my opinion, FAST/RIT is a resource that is not taken all that seriously by many in the fire service. These units are not called in because they are good to have, or might even save one of us. They are called in because there is a standard that says we have to. I also think that from the minute this standard came out, some folks set about trying to find all the loopholes, or worse to make their own.

I have always heard that operations can start if the FAST is on scene or enroute to the scene. Now this is a huge problem for the departments that call for a FAST from 2 or 3 towns away. In cases like this, enroute is a long time. Second of course is the prevailing wisdom that you don't need a FAST until a Chief gets on scene and says he needs one. This brings up two issues, first of all it delays the FAST further, second of all it makes the definition of enroute a little questionable. Is a unit enroute once the Chief asks for it? Is it enroute when they are called? Are they only considered enroute after they have signed on the air as responding? These can be three very different times, even with fully staffed rigs in quarters, let alone if the members have to respond to get the rig first.

There is also the rule that you canenter for a CONFIRMED rescue prior to FAST being assigned. I think allot of people forget the word confirmed, and assume that the primary search can go on to find possible victims. Of course since we really shouldn't be searching without a handline in place, the Engine and the Truck both go in without the FAST. Since conditions are bad, we better get another crew to vent for them, and before you know it, the fire is out and the FAST is canceled enroute or shortly after arriving on scene.

Because of the rule allowing the FAST to be enroute, this leads to Chris's initial question. There is a certain "I have this company standing by on scene, I might as well use them" mentality in this service. Which probably comes from the fact that FAST rarely get activated and it can sometimes seem like they are a waste of resources (a false assumption in my opinion). Since FAST can technically be back filled by another company being enroute, the initial FAST gets deployed. Few if any Firefighters will complain about being put to work, The IC gets to hold the call at the current alarm level, everyone is happy.....until you need that FAST inside.

As for county teams, I am not sure that would work, at least in Fairfield County. Westchester is about the same size isn't it? IF I have to wait for 4-6 guys to assemble from different ends of the county and then get to the scene, possibly in multiple rigs, I might as well not have a FAST at all. Imagine 1 guy each from Stamford, Danbury, Bridgeport and Norwalk going to Sherman as the RIT. I think you are better off using those crews from 2-3 towns away that might assemble faster.

[firemoose827 324]

In my opinion, FAST/RIT is a resource that is not taken all that seriously by many in the fire service. These units are not called in because they are good to have, or might even save one of us. They are called in because there is a standard that says we have to. I also think that from the minute this standard came out, some folks set about trying to find all the loopholes, or worse to make their own.

Excellent point. Most of the chiefs in our county are absolutely against FAST and have said they will not call for it unless needed, but by than its too late. The rest simply do it because of the 2 in/2 out rule and dont want to get in trouble. Good point brother and I agree.

As for county teams, I am not sure that would work, at least in Fairfield County. Westchester is about the same size isn't it? IF I have to wait for 4-6 guys to assemble from different ends of the county and then get to the scene, possibly in multiple rigs, I might as well not have a FAST at all. Imagine 1 guy each from Stamford, Danbury, Bridgeport and Norwalk going to Sherman as the RIT. I think you are better off using those crews from 2-3 towns away that might assemble faster.

What works for our county may not work for you. You may have to alter the plans, like make 2 different FAST units, one for the northern part and one for the southern part of the county or something similar. Our FAST members respond directly to the scene in their POV's, or go to the county building to pick up the County Truck. There are FAST bags located throught the county at different stations, and if your near one you pick it up and respond to the scene. We usually have a full 6 man team on scene ready to rock within 8 minutes. But, each county is different.

[16fire5 693]

As for the law (CFR 1910.134 AKA 2 in/2 out) when members enter a IDLH they must work in pairs and there must be 2 members outside to render assistance if necessary. One of the two outside can perfom another job but must be able to drop what they are doing if the need arises. Thats the law the standard never uses the words FAST or RIT. It does allow members to operated individually and before a safety team is in place in the cases of known life hazards.

As for real life most places use the RIT or FAST concept which when on scene definatly satisfies the law and its intent. A responding FAST does not count. As for a FAST being put to work it depends on what you mean. Many FAST or RIT allow a portion of their team to remove window bars or place ladders for eagress while being available for deployment. I see nothing wrong with this as long as your available and other FAST/RIT members monitor what is going on.

What I think Chris is referring to in his question is the all to common occurance of putting the FAST team to work doing firefighting duty before the fire is under control. I think it is a failure of command to have enough resources on scene to handle their incident. At a working fire that is not under control you should have some units on scene in reserve asside from the FAST to stretch the extra line or check for extension when the need arises.

In the City of New York the FAST is only allowed to go to work to address a MAYDAY. If that happens an additional one will be called for but in the meantime the IC must designate a FAST on scene until their arrival. This may be an engine or non commited personnel. This as most of our procedures was developed through real life lessons. Hopefully Westchester Depts. can adopt these procedures before they learn the hard way.

[robert benz 344]

Excellent point. Most of the chiefs in our county are absolutely against FAST and have said they will not call for it unless needed, but by than its too late. The rest simply do it because of the 2 in/2 out rule and dont want to get in trouble. Good point brother and I agree.

What works for our county may not work for you. You may have to alter the plans, like make 2 different FAST units, one for the northern part and one for the southern part of the county or something similar. Our FAST members respond directly to the scene in their POV's, or go to the county building to pick up the County Truck. There are FAST bags located throught the county at different stations, and if your near one you pick it up and respond to the scene. We usually have a full 6 man team on scene ready to rock within 8 minutes. But, each county is different.

with the county setup how do you notify the "team" is it a page and the first guys to answer get it ?? who gets the fast team bag / gear so that 6 different people are wasting time looking for gear already picked up?

why isnt it already on a run card that xyz fast is toned out the second the words "working fire are uttered by the IC" You can always get them moving sooner based on what you hear from dispatch or cancel them if not needed my point is it should already be in place so a chief cant "not call"

[firemoose827 324]

with the county setup how do you notify the "team" is it a page and the first guys to answer get it ?? who gets the fast team bag / gear so that 6 different people are wasting time looking for gear already picked up?

why isnt it already on a run card that xyz fast is toned out the second the words "working fire are uttered by the IC" You can always get them moving sooner based on what you hear from dispatch or cancel them if not needed my point is it should already be in place so a chief cant "not call"

I would LOVE for you to attend one of our County Chiefs Meetings.....You would find the answers Real Quick!

This is exactly what SOME of us in the County are arguing about, but most chiefs still refuse to have them be called automatically.

As far as our SOP's......Sorry, I didnt write them!! Our team has a set of county tones, they call enroute either on air or via phone, " FAST 8 enroute from Cobleskill with bag." That way everyone knows who is responding with what. I know there is a bunch of questions still and open areas that need addressed but we just formed the team about 3 years ago. If you have any suggestions from your team my ears (or in this case eyes) are wide open!!

Thanks brother

Moose

[OLDGUY19 6]

Most department don't want to admit that they are having manpower issues.If you are having manpower issues call the M/A right away.Get them on the road right away you can always send them back if not needed. Officer's should leave RIT/FAST teams in place for they are there for our safety.

[Monty 35]

As for the law (CFR 1910.134 AKA 2 in/2 out) when members enter a IDLH they must work in pairs and there must be 2 members outside to render assistance if necessary. One of the two outside can perfom another job but must be able to drop what they are doing if the need arises. Thats the law the standard never uses the words FAST or RIT. It does allow members to operated individually and before a safety team is in place in the cases of known life hazards.

As for real life most places use the RIT or FAST concept which when on scene definatly satisfies the law and its intent. A responding FAST does not count. As for a FAST being put to work it depends on what you mean. Many FAST or RIT allow a portion of their team to remove window bars or place ladders for eagress while being available for deployment. I see nothing wrong with this as long as your available and other FAST/RIT members monitor what is going on.

What I think Chris is referring to in his question is the all to common occurance of putting the FAST team to work doing firefighting duty before the fire is under control. I think it is a failure of command to have enough resources on scene to handle their incident. At a working fire that is not under control you should have some units on scene in reserve asside from the FAST to stretch the extra line or check for extension when the need arises.

In the City of New York the FAST is only allowed to go to work to address a MAYDAY. If that happens an additional one will be called for but in the meantime the IC must designate a FAST on scene until their arrival. This may be an engine or non committed personnel. This as most of our procedures was developed through real life lessons. Hopefully Westchester Depts. can adopt these procedures before they learn the hard way.

I was going to mention this but, you beat me to it. My understanding in addition is that for every person in an IDLH environment, there has to be a rescuer. Also, you can't enter an IDLH environment alone. So, to the extreme if there are 30 people operating inside at a fire - you need 30 out.

As for the original question, the answer I have is that we get called as FAST and should expect to get put to work because the caliber of FF's you get on a FAS Team is higher than a mutual aid crew. I must admit, that's why I joined my Department's FAST.

Fine and dandy, if that's what you want (because the county has no standards for MA) - but as others have said, get another FAST in place first. I've also mentioned it before, do something like the Phoenix system where they rotate their RIT's in to operations then rehab, then RIT - this keeps them involved, gives them situation awareness and you're not just standing around for X hours waiting for the stuff to hit the fan.

[Remember585 815]

I know very, very little of life outside Westchester County so I can only answer on my knowledge here in the WC. (Not White Castle...)

MOST Departments have realized how important it is to get a FAST to their fire scenes and have added them into their "Greater Alarm Plans." This way when an IC calls the "Working Fire" one is dispatched. Some places still don't call one for whatever reason, and I won't even attempt to assume why they wouldn't.

Some Departments are good about setting up SOMETHING to ensure there are some personnel available to make a FF Rescue prior to the arrival of the designated FAST. Are these people trained, and are they equipped to make a FF Rescue until the actual FAST shows up? I don't know. Hopefully they are.

The reason in Westchester MOST OFTEN (not always, but most often) you will hear a FAST going to work and another one brought in to releive them is simple... members standing around playing the role of a FAST may get bored or distratced after time and may not be paying as much attention to what is going on as they should. By calling in relief and putting these guys to work, a fresh team could very well be paying more attention then the guys that have been there in the cold or the Summer heat standing around and getting tired. To me, as a potential IC, I want my FAST to be alert and on their toes, and if that means bringing in another team to rotate the original one out with then maybe that's a way to go.

The other big reason is, as already stated, manpower. Many times the FAST is the only Mutual Aid company coming in, and the IC realizes they need more personnel, so they grab that FAST and call another one. I've been in that situation many, many times. Our Team SOG is that we will not allow the whole team to go to work until we are relieved. I will admit that in the past (a couple years back) there was times we would deviate from this SOG but now it just won't happen. There's been times we respond with 10-12 FAST personnel and we will let 5 or 6 go to work and keep the rest on FAST detail until we are relieved.

The other, more important issue is the training of FAST personnel. As Captain Benz said, there are still Departments that will let the first members at the firehouse respond as a FAST, even if they have had no formal or continuing training on the subject. Last year we were requested Mutual Aid to a fire and we were unable to get enough trained personnel in FAST, so our Captain contacted 60 Control and we did not respond. It was the first time in almost 10 years of existence that we did this, and we didn't feel embarassed by it, our egoes aren't nearly as important as providing the best people for this most important of tasks.

Lastly, so many people and so many departments think that once they take the FAST Course they are "done." This couldn't be further from the truth. Like all of our other "jobs" we have, we must constantly be training and adapting as needed to provide the best we can.

Hope that helps, Chris.

[16fire5 693]

As for the original question, the answer I have is that we get called as FAST and should expect to get put to work because the caliber of FF's you get on a FAS Team is higher than a mutual aid crew. I must admit, that's why I joined my Department's FAST.

That might be a bit arrogant. The point is if your that good you should be available for Maydays. Many departments only call a FAST for mutual aid so when they run out of resources they put the fast to work this is a failure of command and illegal. You should have resources on scene available to put to work besides the FAST before the fire is under control. I would not rotate FASTs just because members get bored because the FAST has seen the the scene evolve and knows where members are operating and has done a size up. If the FAST you call can't deal with this they are not professionals find one that is.

One poster thought that for each member who enters the IDLH requires a standby. This is not true. By exact letter of the law technically only 2 members are required to standby outside. Even OSHA admitts in opinions that this is probably not adequete in real life situations. The NFPA requires 4 so I would use this as a minimum because you could see this applied by OSHA under the general duty clause and because it's a good idea.

[Remember585 815]

As for the original question, the answer I have is that we get called as FAST and should expect to get put to work because the caliber of FF's you get on a FAS Team is higher than a mutual aid crew. I must admit, that's why I joined my Department's FAST.

We had guys who wanted to get on our FAST for that reason and were either denied or dropped once we realized their real intentions...

[AFS1970 504]

For thsoe departments that have an organized team for FAST/RIT operations, shouldn't the reason you join the team be to rescue our brothers and not to buff every job that comes in in the region?

If the FAST members join knowing that they will be put to work doing non-FAST tasks, and that is OK with them, we will never get to a dedicated FAST because those team members will be tomorrow's Chiefs and this situation will have become the rule and not the exception.

[Bnechis 3,961]

.....you hear "FAST being put to work" and a new FAST team is requested. Isn't the FAST team an assigned resource? Aren't they there to insure the safety of the firefighters already working on the job and rescue them if they get into trouble? Why are they getting put to work instead of simply using additional companies in staging? Or is it that we don't routinely request additional resources to standby in staging?

Yes it is an assigned resource. FD's are required to have a plan as to who performs FAST prior to assigning a dedicated team (29CFR1910.134 & NFPA 1710). There are times when the best way to protect members is to put FAST to work (i.e. stretching another line may prevent extension trappig members) and request another team. In the meantime revert back to your FAST plan until the new FAST team is ready.

Rarely do you see additional units in staging.

I recall discussions in other threads about the use of FAST/RIT teams and how important they are. One point that jumps out at me was the issue of a new FAST team having to repeat all the work done by the FAST team that has been put to work. Doing a size-up, assessing and removing hazards, preparing equipment, etc.

So fire guys, educate this cop type guy!

The repeat should not be an issue. Size up is ongoing. Hazards that have been removed are no issue, but new crews may see missed hazards and much of the fast equipment remains the same.

Chris its a good thing your in aviation not K9....because you cant teach an old K9..............

[helicopper 1,050]

What I think Chris is referring to in his question is the all to common occurance of putting the FAST team to work doing firefighting duty before the fire is under control. I think it is a failure of command to have enough resources on scene to handle their incident. At a working fire that is not under control you should have some units on scene in reserve asside from the FAST to stretch the extra line or check for extension when the need arises.

That's exactly what I was referring to.

Yes it is an assigned resource. FD's are required to have a plan as to who performs FAST prior to assigning a dedicated team (29CFR1910.134 & NFPA 1710). There are times when the best way to protect members is to put FAST to work (i.e. stretching another line may prevent extension trappig members) and request another team. In the meantime revert back to your FAST plan until the new FAST team is ready.

Rarely do you see additional units in staging.

So stretching an additional line is a FAST operation so they're still performing their FAST responsibilities. Wouldn't it make sense that once that line is stretched and the immediate hazard is alleviated, the FAST members rotate out to another firefighting company so they can resume their FAST duties? Aren't these supposed to be the "ESU" of the fire service (when a cop is in trouble they call ESU, when a FF is in trouble they call FAST)?

Why is it that we so rarely see staging areas established let alone have an additional resource or two in staging?

Hey Barry, woof!

[Bnechis 3,961]

The reason in Westchester MOST OFTEN (not always, but most often) you will hear a FAST going to work and another one brought in to releive them is simple... members standing around playing the role of a FAST may get bored or distratced after time and may not be paying as much attention to what is going on as they should. By calling in relief and putting these guys to work, a fresh team could very well be paying more attention then the guys that have been there in the cold or the Summer heat standing around and getting tired.

If they are bored, distracted, hot, cold, etc. maybe they should be sent to rehab or sent home. If bored.....should they be "rewarded"?

To me, as a potential IC, I want my FAST to be alert and on their toes

Good Point

[Bnechis 3,961]

So stretching an additional line is a FAST operation so they're still performing their FAST responsibilities. Wouldn't it make sense that once that line is stretched and the immediate hazard is alleviated, the FAST members rotate out to another firefighting company so they can resume their FAST duties?

No, but if adding another line will improve the situation, thus making it safer for everyone its worth doing. Once they've done that they have used some air, they are not ready to be FAST again. Better to get a fresh team.

Aren't these supposed to be the "ESU" of the fire service (when a cop is in trouble they call ESU, when a FF is in trouble they call FAST)?

Not exactly. In my experiance the approach to FAST is different in career depts than in VFD's (this is not knocking on either). In most career depts. every unit is expected to perform as FAST and the FAST assignment is assiged based on location (i.e. 4th due Eng or 3rd due truck, etc.), if its in one end of town its one unit, another end of town, its a different unit. In most VFD's they do not have enough "interior" ff's to handle FAST at there own fires, they use MA to cover that.

Why is it that we so rarely see staging areas established let alone have an additional resource or two in staging?

Good Question. We should. Part of the problem is most depts are so short handed that they are calling 10 depts just to handle the fire ground without covering staging. They are unwilling to call for more to just "sit there"

[Bnechis 3,961]

Another issue is what "constitutes" a FAST team?

Last month TMFD requested an Engine from NRFD for FAST and shortly after arriving at the scene was "put to work".

Part of the reason for this is our engine companies perform as FAST (on report of a "working fire") the 4th due engine is automatically dispatched and assigned that roll.

But, our engines do not carry all of the equipment needed to be a FAST unit. Once on scene they have a list of needed iteams, they they will assemble in a common location (i.e. our engines do not carry a stokes, but every truck does). This works fine for us.

When operating on MA we are set up to perform as an Eng or truck and in TOM the IC put NR to work ad called for a VFD that was set up to be a MA FAST.

[Guest partyrock]

I never got the point of assigning someone FAST then just putting them to work. They are there in case the worst happens. Now things have deteriorated faster than you expected or maybe you just aren't making the progress you wanted. This is when bad things happen and you're going to take my lifeline and give it some other work to do. I'm lucky down here in that we have a large amount of available manpower and a Rescue Co that is second to none at very fire, so we can get away without having the FAST standing by. Plus, the next FAST is probably less than 5 minutes away. To be a volley and allow your FAST to be put to work is insane. Fact is those are probably the best trained firefighters that dept has to offer, you have no idea how far out your replacement FAST is, and if they're put to work who do you have in the interim? Nearly everyone besides the fast team is either involved in the fire or rehabbing from the fire. If you go down you're screwed.

[Guest]

I would LOVE for you to attend one of our County Chiefs Meetings.....You would find the answers Real Quick!

This is exactly what SOME of us in the County are arguing about, but most chiefs still refuse to have them be called automatically.

As far as our SOP's......Sorry, I didnt write them!! Our team has a set of county tones, they call enroute either on air or via phone, " FAST 8 enroute from Cobleskill with bag." That way everyone knows who is responding with what. I know there is a bunch of questions still and open areas that need addressed but we just formed the team about 3 years ago. If you have any suggestions from your team my ears (or in this case eyes) are wide open!!

Thanks brother

Moose

ok my ? here is what fits in the bag that a fast team member would pick up an use othere then rope cuse in my county and dept. my fast team everything is on a truck, rescue ect. i dont think there is really anything you can carry in a bag or your car what are the tools you guys use for the county FAS team

[TL2L31 8]

Most department don't want to admit that they are having manpower issues.If you are having manpower issues call the M/A right away.Get them on the road right away you can always send them back if not needed. Officer's should leave RIT/FAST teams in place for they are there for our safety.

I was going to reply to this post. But as I was scrolling down, you said exactly what I was going to. Send in M/A on dispatch . Leave the fest team in place. Once they get put to work, you now have a delay to replace them and ff dafety could be compromised.

[Guest]

I would LOVE for you to attend one of our County Chiefs Meetings.....You would find the answers Real Quick!

This is exactly what SOME of us in the County are arguing about, but most chiefs still refuse to have them be called automatically.

As far as our SOP's......Sorry, I didnt write them!! Our team has a set of county tones, they call enroute either on air or via phone, " FAST 8 enroute from Cobleskill with bag." That way everyone knows who is responding with what. I know there is a bunch of questions still and open areas that need addressed but we just formed the team about 3 years ago. If you have any suggestions from your team my ears (or in this case eyes) are wide open!!

Thanks brother

Moose

About six years ago our department implemented a box system. One of the main goals was to standardize our response to certain incidents. In other words, delivering a consistent standard of service no matter which officer was in charge. Our second alarm boxes all include notification to EMS, RIT, CL&P, at least one additional tanker (one always gets dispatched on automatic aid on the first alarm), and an engine to cover our town (which can be redirected by the IC to the scene if necessary). It has worked out extrememly well. As a result, the RIT gets dispatched every time and it gets dispatched quickly.

Our department will not assign the RIT to another task. We would rather redirect the engine covering our town to the scene. Our goal is to have at least one company in reserve in case things start going bad. We view the RIT as our insurance policy. The are there solely to benefit us. I would not want to be the IC where one of my men gets injured and there wasn't a RIT on scene. Not having a RIT is really substandard, and I think that not using one is an injustice to your men and also opening yourself up for a lawsuit.

We now run as RIT automatically to certain towns. The first day that we went live with one town, they had a job. While we were en route, a member fell through a floor. He was easily rescued by his own men. He was lucky. Had they not done that, we would have been immediately put to work. This is an example of why you want to call for RIT immediately. Things can go wrong on scene as soon as you make entry.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Not having a RIT is really substandard, and I think that not using one is an injustice to your men and also opening yourself up for a lawsuit.

Agreed, but not sending enough firefighters on any call is also substandard, but 95% of the departments don't meet any of the standards (NFPA, ISO, ICMA, etc.) This is an even bigger injustice and also opens one to litigation.

Not having enough members increases the chance of injury on all calls, not just working fires. I was out for 8 months after an on the job injury partially due to substandard manning on an EMS call. (FAST would not have helped, but manning would have).

[Bnechis 3,961]

This was the big fight in NYC years ago when the Rescue companies began taking in jobs... FDNY rescue was assigned to multiples for rescue and recovery of downed FFs due to their advanced training... then they started taking in jobs and were a worthless resource to ffs in need because they themselves were tired from jobs they just cleared and as a result the adopted the next due truck in as a rescue team for ffs in need.... thus the "fast truck" was born in the city. So should a fast team be soley a fast team... absolutely as you want guys that are trained, equipped and fresh to go when you need them the most... when you're in trouble. So are there times you're sitting around while the action is going on, hell yes... but your purpose is to be the life support for your brothers in need... too bad rescues lost site of that early on.

You left out one historical point. Before the FAST truck, FDNY had Engine Company Firefighter Assist Teams.

This title was a problem.....nobody wants to be on the FAT Engine.

[Oswegowind 17]

Maybe I too am a bit confused at this subject, I am only a dispatcher of course... IMO a unit assigned to FAS/RIT is at work, their job at the fire scene is just that, so technically they are not going to work, they are being re-assigned and undermining the safety of all other firefighters at the scene. FAS/RIT should not be at the beckon call of the Incident Commander, instead they should be separate, and do their job! Yes, the IC requests the team, but once on scene they should have their own leader and not interact with the regular fire operation, they should provide a sense of safety/security on the scene, be seen making sure that everyone goes home! Would it be wrong to equivocate this to a PD scenario, what if the dispatcher was 'put to work'? A car gets into some crap and calls for help and no one is there, now what? Same idea, we all have our jobs to do, re-assigning a unit to something else that takes them away from their primary duty is absolutely a horrible idea, don't put your people in jeopardy, let FAS/RIT do their job! And for team leaders, be wary of being re-assigned, don't let it happen, no matter how much you guys want to get dirty, who is gonna rescue you if s*** goes down?

[firemoose827 324]

ok my ? here is what fits in the bag that a fast team member would pick up an use othere then rope cuse in my county and dept. my fast team everything is on a truck, rescue ect. i dont think there is really anything you can carry in a bag or your car what are the tools you guys use for the county FAS team

In our FAST bags we keep basic hand tools and rope with tubular webbing and biners. We acquire ladders and saws from the rigs on scene, and the fire coordinators carry TIC's that we use. Our truck is outfitted with all of these things but its centrally located in a town called Schoharie, and unless someone picks it up we have the bags all over the county. Basic tools are Halligans, axes, etc.

Each member brings their turnouts, a pack, and a portable radio. These things are cleared with their chief officers ahead of time when they join the team, so their chief knows if the FAST is called this member will be getting a pack and radio from their dept.

[Guest]

In our FAST bags we keep basic hand tools and rope with tubular webbing and biners. We acquire ladders and saws from the rigs on scene, and the fire coordinators carry TIC's that we use. Our truck is outfitted with all of these things but its centrally located in a town called Schoharie, and unless someone picks it up we have the bags all over the county. Basic tools are Halligans, axes, etc.

Each member brings their turnouts, a pack, and a portable radio. These things are cleared with their chief officers ahead of time when they join the team, so their chief knows if the FAST is called this member will be getting a pack and radio from their dept.

ok was just wondering how the hell it worked i was going to ask about hte ladder stokes basket and saw and all the other tools you need

[helicopper 1,050]

Can anyone venture a guess at the percentage of FF who are FAST/RIT trained and qualified? I'm just wondering how hard it is to get a team of qualified people to the scene of a job...