Why Don't Commisioners Like This Site?

[EMTbravo 312]

I've heard from several different people over the course of running this site that the administration of their department, namely Chiefs or Commisioners, think this site is bad for the fire service, and have taken verbal or other disciplinary action for their members using this site.

I've found many of these commisioners to be older, and out of touch with modern-day communication. Many don't understand websites such as this. Some have never even been to this site, yet judge it.

My opinion is, sadly, many departments have incompetent leaders who are scared that they may lose their “power” if they don’t have complete control, and if everything they do isn’t kept a secret. Many aren't confident in their actions, and are afraid they may be exposed. These people typically are also very closed minded.

My question is, volunteer or career, if you don't represent or associate yourself with a department, then can the commisoners or chiefs actually "ban" you from using this site?

I can understand a department not wanting people representing themselves as the department on this site, and some other minor issues, but if they let them wear the uniform and respond to calls and go to training, then what is the issue if they come on here to talk to their peers? Is it just because "everyone can see"?

Has anyone come across this problem in their department? I personally feel this is detrimental to the Fire Service.

[Guest]

My question is, volunteer or career, if you don't represent or associate yourself with a department, then can the commisoners or chiefs actually "ban" you from using this site?

whats that thingy called?? oh yea, the first amendment...

[FFLieu 70]

I think some of the Chief and Commissioner bashing that goes on here might have something to do with it, but then again, that's just my own thoughts regarding the question.

[DaRock98 76]

I think some of the Chief and Commissioner bashing that goes on here might have something to do with it, but then again, that's just my own thoughts regarding the question.

You came up with that after only being on the site for 2 months??? I've been here about a year and haven't seen to much of that going on. I've seen a few jokes about them but I really wouldn't call it "BASHING". I just think people need to learn how to take a joke.

[FFLieu 70]

I've read past threads, that have since been taken down, in which a local chief and several commissioners were disparaged. Granted, they have been taken down, probably for obvious reasons, but I definitely wouldn't like it if I were a Chief. How would you feel if a member of your department bashed you and the other members making up your line?

[firemoose827 324]

I've seen a few jokes about them but I really wouldn't call it "BASHING". I just think people need to learn how to take a joke.

Exactly!! Some people cant handle a position of authority and start to abuse it after a while. Eventually they dont see a joke, they see a reason to "Reprimand" someone and abuse the power given to them.

If you condone your members from coming on this site to "Learn" something than theres a problem. Not only is it educational, you network yourself to people from across the Country and build friendships. Its the same as donning your FD uniform and attending a training seminar, Lecture, or class? Isnt it? Why then would the chiefs have a problem with their members getting 24 hour access to a site Loaded with peers and leaders and members sharing their knowledge about fire, EMS and police work?

It makes no sense to me, because its happening to me also. I posted a topic about smoke containing the different spectrum of poisons now-adays and the LODD's that were caused by it and reminding everyone to wear their masks 100% of the time on the pin-up board in the station. Next thing I know Im being questioned about "This site your on" and "Do you share everything about the dept" and everything else. It was almost like an interrogation of sorts.

Why cant people just be allowed to practise their 1st ammendment? It bothers me.

Moose

[Guest]

I've read past threads, that have since been taken down, in which a local chief and several commissioners were disparaged. Granted, they have been taken down, probably for obvious reasons, but I definitely wouldn't like it if I were a Chief. How would you feel if a member of your department bashed you and the other members making up your line?

i've read a few myself and seeing those situations unfold in real life as many have seen, their is generally a reason why people 'bash' them. if they chiefs and commissioners get a little too power hungry (especially the vollie ones) this is a good place to vent...especially when you want them to read what you are writing.

[FFLieu 70]

It doesn't change the fact that a Chief is a Chief, Captain is a Captain, etc. In the paid service, there are unions that will hear any grievance. In the vollie service, there is an executive board that oversees the department as a whole and will hear any grievance. Those are your two avenues to vent. Department issues shouldn't be vented in public, either because at the end of the day, the person you're venting about has rank and therefore, should be given a certain amount of respect.

[DFD801 0]

Seth, it's interesting that you brought this point up. I haven't seen anyone get in trouble for their posts on this site. But when I read this, the first thing I thought about was you and your situation. Don't get me wrong... what happened to you really sucks and I feel for you. I don't know you nor do I know anyone in the Hartsdale FD, but I followed your posts about your situation. You kept saying that your Chiefs wanted you out, the union wasn't supporting you and your brother firefighters weren't backing you either... and you had no idea why. My personal opinion is this site may have had something to do with it.

I first joined here in 2004 under a different name. It's no doubt that you have a lot of opinions on a lot of things and you post eveything here or on your other sites. You have every right in the world to do that. But when you have chiefs, officers and veterans with 20 plus years on the job reading it, they're going to look at it and say "who does this guy think he is talking all this trash with only 2 years on the job". Whether it's right or wrong, that's how it is. Like I said, this is just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. I just think that if you want to post something on the internet for the world to see, go for it. Just don't act surprised if it comes back to bite you in the a**.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

To the Chiefs and Commissioners who have a problem with their members speaking on this forum, there is a book that I think you should check out...

1984 by George Orwell

[DaRock98 76]

I've read past threads, that have since been taken down, in which a local chief and several commissioners were disparaged. Granted, they have been taken down, probably for obvious reasons, but I definitely wouldn't like it if I were a Chief. How would you feel if a member of your department bashed you and the other members making up your line?

I guess I missed that thread sorry. I totally understand your point and agree with you but unfortunately I have been "bashed" before but I've learned to shake it off b/c I am fully confident that I preformed my task to the best of my ability and thats all I can do. To me the most important task I feel I have is to bring all of my men/women home in the some condition they came to me. Everyone has there own opinion on whats right and wrong in the fire service and I am willing to accept that.

[rfdu39 89]

I know that New Rochelle's commisioner does not have a problem with this site.

[Guest]

if you have any role in pd, fd or ems in Westchester or the surrounding counties and you've never been to this site (at a minimum, just to check out the hype) you're most likely out of the loop. Either these people are really out of the loop or they’re here and you just don’t know it, under some wierd-a$$ name like vacguy or something! lol

[ladder55 26]

maybe bashing shouldnt be allowed. constructive opinions and advice are better. when using the word moron is used when talking about a situation its no longer a discussion its bashing.

[Guest feraldan]

On occasion people will post things which are factually incorrect, either because they are hearsay or someone simply misspoke. I know its happened that comments were made which offended people in my department, including the Chief. Its important that when people post they verify their info beforehand. There's often a thin line between gossip and truth.

I think the moderation has done its best to remove the gossip and maintain factual statements, so the problem should really be with the individuals who post incorrect info.

[ex-commish 490]

Why cant people just be allowed to practise their 1st ammendment? It bothers me.

Moose

We are....

[helicopper 1,050]

maybe bashing shouldnt be allowed. constructive opinions and advice are better. when using the word moron is used when talking about a situation its no longer a discussion its bashing.

I think Seth has made a good faith effort to, at the very least, limit the amount of bashing (individual or agency) on this forum. Posts are promptly deleted when they're inappropriate and members who continue to abuse the privilege are ultimately removed from the membership so discussions can remain positive and interesting. Now that he's increased the "staff", more people have their eyes peeled for abuses of this quasi-anonymous forum to further prevent bashing or similiar conduct and it is simply not tolerated (much to the chagrin of the bashers!).

As for the original question in this thread, I think there is a tremendous sensitivity to criticism in the emergency services and people are reluctant to see their agencies criticized, constructively or otherwise. Many Commissioners/Chiefs feel that their agency is above review, a very misguided perspective. Despite the composition of your agency, if you provide a public service and do so with tax dollars or donations, you are bound by many laws and regulations to publish annual reports, financial statements, etc. That agencies choose not to out of ignorance or design is a separate issue.

There is nothing that an agency (paid, volunteer, or otherwise) can do if someone logs onto this site from the comfort of their own home and on their own computer. UNLESS, the person identifies themself as a member of the agency, uses department logos (etc.), or accesses the site from a department owned computer or while on company/department time. They may try and members may bow to the threat of punishment but the Constitutional right to free speech would undoubtedly be upheld if ever presented to a court of law.

I wish more Commissioners/Chiefs/Elected Officials came out of their shells and did read sites like this and others that try to improve the working conditions of the emergency services workforce!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

The truth of it all is that REALITY HURTS. Some Chiefs and Commish's don't want to read that people have a problem with their service whether PD, FD, or VAC. I have been called on the carpet for some things I have written on here. None were bad. None at all. They were the truth. People can't handle hearing that their service STINKS. Maybe they should use this as a way to fix what is wrong.

What most of you call BASHING I don't. I look at it as if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. REALITY is a wake up call to somebody.

[ajsbear 11]

There are good and bad Chiefs and Commisioners, just like every other position. There are other line officers as well who are both living in the past and are clueless about how to act in their position. There is no way we can weed them all out. I do know many officers in Westchester, Putnam and other communities rad this forum and many are lerkers and never posted. If they have a problem with anything said here, my opinion is speak up. A forum like this is here for to purpose of discussing problems, differences and learn from each other. One problem is many officers think because they are in that position their word is LAW and spout orders like a Mexican General. Those days are gone. The Chiefs and Commisioners also, the world has changed in the last 20 years, catch up or get out.

Just my humble opinion.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

I agree with oneeyemedic. I made some constructive comments about tactical decisions at a recent fire, and I later heard about it from some people. My intentions were not to bash anyone, simply to point out some things that could have been done differently. Unfortunately those in power took it as a personal attack and accused me of airing out dept laundry. I was simply adding to the constructive discussion that was taking place, but it seems that once you disagree with authority you become the bad guy. I quess some people can handle constructive critisism.

[ladder55 26]

i agree that topics and incidents should be discussed on this site. we are all here to learn. i dont think anyone should have a problem with that. thats not bashing in my opinion.

[Guest]

sometimes bashing (for lack of a better word) is necessary to get to the root of the problems. leaders sometimes don't want to deal w/ this stuff, go the members go on here and deal w/ it amongst themselves and their fellow ES people. kudos to those people!

[TL2L31 8]

If someone has a problem with this site , then it is THEIR problem. It is a good source for information and discussion.

[FFLieu 70]

If someone has a problem with this site , then it is THEIR problem. It is a good source for information and discussion.

That is true, and I agree with everyone who has posted a response. But for instance, when a Chief is raked over the coals so-to-speak, simply because he's over 70 years old, that's crossing a line and could lend some credence to why Chiefs and Commissioners might not like the site.

Just my 2 cents.

[shac 7313 0]

We are....

i been an member of this group since 05 and the only bashing i,ve seened is what happen to seth.

[res6cue 67]

You guys think you have it bad over there in Westchester? At least your County Fire Coordinator and County Chiefs' Association hasn't been making a direct, concerted effort to shut your site down because it's "the worst thing to ever happen to the county's fire service".

Much of this boils down to some simple facts:

- Many people simply cannot handle criticism, "constructive" or otherwise.

- Many people are absolutely petrified of the local media reading these boards and launching a Newsday-like expose based upon it.

- Some people refuse to accept the fact that the Internet is not going away anytime soon, and in some cases these boards have replaced sitting around the firehouse bar BS'ing or talking sh!t.

- "Can't we all just get along?" No, in some cases, we can't. People all have different personalities and sometimes they just don't mesh.

- In certain isolated cases, there may be ranking officials that have a personal grudge with admins, mods, very active posters or outspoken posters.

All that being said, I do believe there is a right way and a wrong way to express yourself and to offer true constructive criticism. Overt attacks on agencies/individuals is a prime example of the wrong way.

This issue won't go away anytime soon, that's for certain. I'm not even sure in 50 years from now when even the oldest old timers were part of the Internet Generation, will it really change some opinions of these type of sites.

[Future Fireman 4]

You guys think you have it bad over there in Westchester? At least your County Fire Coordinator and County Chiefs' Association hasn't been making a direct, concerted effort to shut your site down because it's "the worst thing to ever happen to the county's fire service".

Much of this boils down to some simple facts:

- Many people simply cannot handle criticism, "constructive" or otherwise.

- Many people are absolutely petrified of the local media reading these boards and launching a Newsday-like expose based upon it.

I can see it now, FIREGATE: THE Firehouse Scandal!

Mike

[Danger 160]

Probably 75% of the time that I go to reply to a thread, I don't end up submitting it. People are too sensitive about stuff and you never know what comment may come back to bite you. Once its on the internet, it's there forever.

[ladder55 26]

same here danger

[ems-buff 81]

Many people are absolutely petrified of the local media reading these boards and launching a Newsday-like expose based upon it.

Maybe something like that is need to get out to get down to some issue, such as: unfair pay, better working conditions, stronger unions. (these are just ideas I have no idea if these are real issues)

"Can't we all just get along?" No, in some cases, we can't. People all have different personalities and sometimes they just don't mesh. In certain isolated cases, there may be ranking officials that have a personal grudge with admins, mods, very active posters or outspoken posters.

If that is the case then, they shouldn't come on the site. No one has the right to say you can or can not go on a web site, (on your OWN time), and if there are certain cases of such, they are acting inappropriate for someone of there position(s).

Edited February 26, 2008 by ems-buff