Irvington Stuck Without Firetruck...

[x635 4,066]

Irvington hopes for best, prepares for worst

By Gerald McKinstry

The Journal News • February 25, 2008

IRVINGTON - As village leaders probe the details of a failed firetruck purchase, a local congresswoman is trying to help.

Rep. Nita Lowey, D-Harrison, reached out last week to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and Wolverine Fire Apparatus, asking each to help Irvington get its rig.

Village leaders, meanwhile, are awaiting an independent audit on their purchasing process, which led the village to put down $322,201 - 75 percent - of the $429,602 purchase price without a performance bond or other protections. That proved to be problematic when Wisconsin-based Elite Fire Apparatus couldn't deliver the engine because of financial problems.

FULL STORY: http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article.../802250358/1018

[dc2t 80]

FULL STORY: http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article.../802250358/1018

Hats off the the ones who voted for no bond for protection.

[Oswegowind 17]

OUCH!

[E-38VMFD 0]

the real problem is that is doesn't suprise me

[Guest]

the real problem is that is doesn't suprise me

I couldn't agree more.........Buying a fire truck is almost a frightening experience these days.

Make sure you have a performance bond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jack10562 414]

I don't think Homeland Security should cough up any money because of Irvington's failure to include a purchase performance bond from the manufacturer, that subsequently went belly up. They (Lowey and Irvington) have some balls for even considering asking!

What kind of deal requires a 75 percent down CASH payment, anyway?

If they get screwed, c'est la vie,...so be it.

The Village "leaders" who signed the unusual contract should be held responsible for their OWN failures, NOT the United States Taxpayers- ie:YOU and ME! :angry:

I DO feel bad for the FD, because they're the ones out on a limb, now, it was supposed to be their new engine, after all.

[bob803 1]

I don't think Homeland Security should cough up any money because of Irvington's failure to include a purchase performance bond from the manufacturer, that subsequently went belly up. They (Lowey and Irvington) have some balls for even considering asking!

What kind of deal requires a 75 percent down CASH payment, anyway?

If they get screwed, c'est la vie,...so be it.

The Village "leaders" who signed the unusual contract should be held responsible for their OWN failures, NOT the United States Taxpayers- ie:YOU and ME! :angry:

I DO feel bad for the FD, because they're the ones out on a limb, now, it was supposed to be their new engine, after all.

I couldn't agree more nuf said...

[ajsbear 11]

I don't think Homeland Security should cough up any money because of Irvington's failure to include a purchase performance bond from the manufacturer, that subsequently went belly up. They (Lowey and Irvington) have some balls for even considering asking!

What kind of deal requires a 75 percent down CASH payment, anyway?

If they get screwed, c'est la vie,...so be it.

The Village "leaders" who signed the unusual contract should be held responsible for their OWN failures, NOT the United States Taxpayers- ie:YOU and ME! :angry:

I DO feel bad for the FD, because they're the ones out on a limb, now, it was supposed to be their new engine, after all.

I agree with you but....We are bailing out all those people who are failing to pay their mortgages, and the Fed has bailed out many a city, town and village for a lot less. Of all the stupid things our gov't does to bail out even dumber people why not buy the village a fire truck. The people of Irvington shgould get rid of the polititions who approved the contract and paying up front for a truck. We just took delivery of a new truck. Bought the cab and chassis first, then when the truck was delivered handed over a check for the rest. At least if the builder went belly up we owned the truck.

[jack10562 414]

The "sub-prime" mortgage debacle was caused by a combination of market forces with their rising interest rates, mixed in with unscrupulous lenders, tossed with uninformed and underqualified borrowers.

That issue has nothing in common, and is not anywhere near, a questionable (at best!) financial scheme fostered by a handful of local politicos, who are now trying to cover their collective fannies!

They rolled the dice, and got Craps! Game over.

I doubt the Village's insurance carrier would cover these losses, they probably have a $322,200 deductible, anyway.

Two words come to mind: Fiduciary Responsibility

[firecapt32 282]

does any one think that the FD is to be held at least a little accountable in this matter??

[ajsbear 11]

Jack, what I was saying was we are bailing out the sub prime market, the banks as well as the people. In that case the banks even though guilty of some really unscrupulous practices will go on doing business. Should they take some hit? Yes but most won't. The federal gov't will bail them out. If they can do that why not some local FD?

As for what Walter is saying, the FD is just as responsible. The village could have rejected the deal but they didn't. Both are then the ones locally we should point at. What they did while not criminal was irresponsable. The only thing that can be done is take them out of office. I don't think anything lse can be done.

[jack10562 414]

I understand what you're saying. However, It's not the Irvington Volunteer Fire Department I have an issue with. The Fire Department (in almost all cases) has nothing at all to do with the financial side of the purchase, where The Village owns the apparatus.

All the FD did was draw up a set of specifications for the vehicle they wanted, the village submits the RFQ to vendors, and accepts a qualifying bid, from a qualified vendor.

The fact that the Village officials irresponsibly chose not to opt for a bond should not become everybody else's problem.

Shame on whoever was responsible.

[firecapt32 282]

let me be up front when I make mistake I am not afraid to admit it and own up to it. After a very pleasent conversation with Chief Nakin of the Irvinigton Fire Department I now understand fully the frustration that he and the department is going through. They and East West had preformance bonds included inthe specs for the apparatus. FIRE DEPARTMENT DID NOTHING WRONG. Knowing JP for a while now, I know that he and his committee did the right thing. Irvington is one of the Department in this county that are way ahead of the curve. All of their member should be proud to belong to that Department.

[dc2t 80]

let me be up front when I make mistake I am not afraid to admit it and own up to it. After a very pleasent conversation with Chief Nakin of the Irvinigton Fire Department I now understand fully the frustration that he and the department is going through. They and East West had preformance bonds included inthe specs for the apparatus. FIRE DEPARTMENT DID NOTHING WRONG. Knowing JP for a while now, I know that he and his committee did the right thing. Irvington is one of the Department in this county that are way ahead of the curve. All of their member should be proud to belong to that Department.

No ill will towards the Fire Dept but if Loweys office can find $322.000.00 It would be put to better use in supplying

UHF portables for a county wide grant. The village screwed up and they should take the hit.

[helicopper 1,050]

I don't think Homeland Security should cough up any money because of Irvington's failure to include a purchase performance bond from the manufacturer, that subsequently went belly up. They (Lowey and Irvington) have some balls for even considering asking!

What kind of deal requires a 75 percent down CASH payment, anyway?

If they get screwed, c'est la vie,...so be it.

The Village "leaders" who signed the unusual contract should be held responsible for their OWN failures, NOT the United States Taxpayers- ie:YOU and ME! :angry:

I DO feel bad for the FD, because they're the ones out on a limb, now, it was supposed to be their new engine, after all.

Well said. Where were the accountants and lawyers when that contract got signed!

Frankly, I'd prefer my tax dollars buy my home agency a new fire truck than an agency 30 miles away. Why is apparatus an allowable grant expense anyway? Shouldn't that be the responsibility of the department? Not all agencies that receive grants are able to buy a new truck after all. Can anyone explain that process?

[helicopper 1,050]

let me be up front when I make mistake I am not afraid to admit it and own up to it. After a very pleasent conversation with Chief Nakin of the Irvinigton Fire Department I now understand fully the frustration that he and the department is going through. They and East West had preformance bonds included inthe specs for the apparatus. FIRE DEPARTMENT DID NOTHING WRONG. Knowing JP for a while now, I know that he and his committee did the right thing. Irvington is one of the Department in this county that are way ahead of the curve. All of their member should be proud to belong to that Department.

Did he explain why they paid 75% up front?

[IzzyEng4 427]

I've never heard any government agency or governing district agency not purchasing a bond on a capital expenditure. This really puts IFD in a bind now and hopefully they will get their truck. Got to love government.

[CFI609D 119]

Brothers & Sisters:

In June of 2006 the Irvington Board of Trustees approved the Fire Chief's request to replace Engine 177, with the condition that we create a performance spec in order to ensure as competitive a bidding process as possible. With the assistance of a consultant, who was specifically engaged to assist in the drafting of the specs and providing technical expertise, a performance spec for a new rescue engine was prepared by the apparatus committee and the Chiefs. This set of specs was then presented to the Village Board via the Village Manager. While all phases of the purchasing and bidding process from that point forward were managed 100% by the Village Hall, we did include in our set of recommendations a performance bond. And as we understand a performance bond has indeed been taken out on all apparatus purchases over the past 40 years and maybe longer. The performance spec (as opposed to a "manufacturer's spec" written with a bias in favor of a particular vendor or manufacturer) was put out to bid by the village and last April Elite was awarded the contract by the Village on the basis of their bid, which was by far the lowest. Prior to that point none of us on the committee had ever had any contact with Elite. Subsequent calls to departments with Elite apparatus (including Montgomery County Maryland, which had nothing but good things to say about the quality of Elite's work) indicated that they made a high quality product and every department called and visited (and there were many) had only positive things to say. Bottom Line: there was no reason for the fire department to recommend disqualification of the bid on a technical basis. And it must also be note that the IFD's role in the process was exclusively preparing the spec, evaluating the quality, and overseeing the manufacturing process to ensure that the final product was compliant with our spec.

Neither the Irvington Fire Department, nor its Chiefs, Officers, or Apparatus Committee were involved in the negotiations with Elite, nor were we consulted in the process. We were unhappy when we learned that the Village chose to pay 75% up front, limiting the amount of leverage we would have over Elite during the manufacturing process. And we were stunned to learn that there was no performance bond.

At this point I cannot answer any of the obvious questions being addressed to Village Hall. But to answer Walter's question, no, I do not see how the fire department or its leadership can be held responsible for this most unfortunate situation. As to the leadership of the Village, the Village Attorney, Treasurer, Manager, etc., we are all waiting for the independent auditor's report. Whatever message it contains, however, we are unfortunately still awaiting a much needed new engine. And to the credit of the Mayor and Trustees, they have indicated their willingness to put the specs out to bid once again (see the statement issued yesterday by the Mayor, which appeared in the Journal News and is posted on the Village website:

http://www.irvingtonny.gov/CivicAlerts.asp?AID=112

J.P. Natkin

Chief of Department

Irvington Fire Department

[jack10562 414]

Chief Natkin, Thank you very much for the situation update.

The whole thing leaves me, an outsider, with a knot in my stomach, so I can only imagine what you, your committee and department members are going through over this. Not to mention the Village residents and taxpayers.

They must be fuming!

I hope the solution for replacing your pumper is expedient, irregardless of issues over which you have no control.

Jack

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Looks like Irvington is not the only department nation wide that has been robbed of their money by Elite.

Fire truck purchase sours

By Damien Fisher

Article Launched: 02/22/2008 10:00:49 AM EST

Almost a year and a half after spending $350,000, Ashby still does not have the new fire truck it purchased from Elite Fire Apparatus, and it looks like it might never get one, according to Geoff Woollacott, an Ashby selectman.

"Right now, there is no truck," Woollacott said.

Wisconsin-based Elite went into receivership in November, a process similar to bankruptcy, after owing approximately $7 million in loans, liens and back pay, according to Shane Williams, owner of Wolverine Fire Apparatus, which purchased Elite earlier this year.

FullStory

http://www.sentinelandenterprise.com/ci_8334828

Edited February 28, 2008 by jack10562
DMCA Copyright Notice

[IzzyEng4 427]

Chief, as a person who was the company captain when we ordered my company's truck and had a very good relationship with our city aldermen, commissioners and apportionment board, I feel for you.

As I said in my previous post, I can't believe the purchasing agents from your town / village government did this and especially from your post didn't consult you on the purchase. I hoep things work out for the best and your department gets through this and get the truck you need.

[louis 1]

does any one think that the FD is to be held at least a little accountable in this matter??

The Irvington Volunteer Fire Department drew up the specs. with the help of a consultant. The Drawings went to the village. The Village Of Irvington sent the drawings out to bid. The lowest bid won. The Fire department had nothing to do with picking out the company that was building the firetruck. The firedepartment had nothing to do with the payment plan, or if the Village had a performance bond.

Edited February 28, 2008 by louis

[Bnechis 3,961]

I don't think Homeland Security should cough up any money because of Irvington's failure to include a purchase performance bond from the manufacturer, that subsequently went belly up. They (Lowey and Irvington) have some balls for even considering asking!

What kind of deal requires a 75 percent down CASH payment, anyway?

If they get screwed, c'est la vie,...so be it.

The Village "leaders" who signed the unusual contract should be held responsible for their OWN failures, NOT the United States Taxpayers- ie:YOU and ME! :angry:

I DO feel bad for the FD, because they're the ones out on a limb, now, it was supposed to be their new engine, after all.

I also feel bad that the FD has to be put out by this. Thanks JP for writing what happened to the FD in this.

I also agree that DHS should not have to pay. We have a fire act grant from DHS that requires us to have a performance bond and delivery time penalties inplace before we can use the DHS money.

Our finance people advised us that it has been against NYS finance law (I've asked for the citation, have yet to recieve it) for decades to place a down payment without financial protection.

Its great to see that the elected officials are willing to spend the additional $$$ to get another rig, but in a small tax base, this issue probably was worth about 4% of the last property tax increase. If it is proven that the finance law was broken, the administration person(s) responsible should have to pay for this disaster.

Good luck to IFD in getting thru this.

[ex-commish 490]

First, good luck to Irvington FD. I know some people there and they are a top notch FD. The issue with the truck does not surprise. Reckless spending seems to be the norm today everywhere at all levels of government. It is very easy to waste other people's money.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

That definately sucks. I have a lot of close friends and colleagues in the IFD...sorry gang. But I know you'll regroup as always. Do what you always do...get out and train to get rid of some frustration and negative energy. I'd love to come out and help with you guys as always being you are one of the very few that have adequate and structured training. JP keep your head up...you're one of the most intelligent ones out there...you'll get it fixed somehow I'm sure. Next time...make a spec that fits the big guys specs...lol.

As far as Nita Lowery trying to find some money to assist them....I say GOOD!! At least she is doing something positive for her area out of her office and as a veteran I have no issue trying to find some federal funds to assist IFD and a few of the other departments that got shafted by a company that should have known they were going belly up and probably handing out BS bids in the process. We bailout other industries in the private sector as one stated and as while in the military and as a civilian federal employee I've seen the federal government hand out tons of money to some of the stupidest BS you could even imagine. Use some of my tax money to help them out...then use the rest for 3 things....ammunition and celox for the Marines and troops and then the rest to build as much of a wall across the Mexican border you can. In fact I think even the state should step in being this is a no fault of the IFD public safety issue.

UHF radios? The fire apparatus was a mistake outside the grip of the FD and the citizens. How many departments haven't stepped up to buy any additional communication equipment for their members in years or centuries for that matter? They aren't asking anyone to buy them a fire apparatus...there are those who recognize a situation that needs rectifying. Has any of your departments put in for federal grants to upgrade and improve your communications system?

[helicopper 1,050]

Regardless of who may or not be at fault in the Village of Irvington, the Attorney General should go after the company that failed to meet its contractual obligation!

[EJS1810 7]

Regardless of who may or not be at fault in the Village of Irvington, the Attorney General should go after the company that failed to meet its contractual obligation!

It would be difficult to go after Elite as they have declared Bankruptcy and have had thier assets sold to another company, Wolverine. I do not think Wolverine is responsible for Elites problems.

[helicopper 1,050]

It would be difficult to go after Elite as they have declared Bankruptcy and have had thier assets sold to another company, Wolverine. I do not think Wolverine is responsible for Elites problems.

They may very well be responsible for some of it. If they had any "assets" in the transfer, I'd go after them for sure!

[jack10562 414]

I doubt there is much else the AG can do, since the corporation(s) no longer exist.

Elite's assets were sold under bankruptcy court supervision, and which Wolverine purchased. Proceeds from the asset sale will likely be distributed by the court to secured creditors, first.

Elite's liabilities were not included in the sale, Wolverine has no moral or legal obligations to perform any services under Elite's now voided contracts.

The only recourse might be for government Securities Regulators to go after Moser Group, the bonding arm under Elite's banner, for possible securities fraud.

[ajsbear 11]

I doubt there is much else the AG can do, since the corporation(s) no longer exist.

Elite's assets were sold under bankruptcy court supervision, and which Wolverine purchased. Proceeds from the asset sale will likely be distributed by the court to secured creditors, first.

Elite's liabilities were not included in the sale, Wolverine has no moral or legal obligations to perform any services under Elite's now voided contracts.

The only recourse might be for government Securities Regulators to go after Moser Group, the bonding arm under Elite's banner, for possible securities fraud.

Your 100% correct. Also for the AG to go after them he has to look into "were they knowingly defrauding the departments?" In other words did they intend to deliver or did they know they could not meet the obligations? Fraud would probobly be the only thing they could get on the ELite execs.