Why is EMS a 3rd Class Party? The Forgotten Child

[ex-commish 490]

i don't see where apples meet apples. from my experiances, vfd people and vac people are of a very, very different breed.

Please elaborate.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I absolutely agree that sloppy appearances and poor attitudes are not the products of EMT/medic schools.... but I think that it partly does stem from lack of discipline while in the training stage.......................... Then again we are talking about grown adults who are State certified medical providers. An agency shouldn't have to tell them to tuck in their shirt, shine your boots, shave, or even take a shower for that matter.

I'm not blaming EMS instructors or any programs out there, because this is just the way it is. I also understand that you can't have EMT or medic students out there running laps, but I think if EMS providers were trained in an Academy-like atmosphere, maybe we would be turning out providers who did have a little more discipline than what we're seeing now.

WELL SAID

[Bnechis 3,961]

Commercial EMS, compared to just about any other corporate enterprise has stricter standards of appearance. Hell even UPS requires vehicles to be washed on a regular basis. Its the people in charge and the senior members who are responsible for setting the standard. This once again comes down to the rank and file stepping up and demanding more from their co-workers and employers.

Stricter standards........I've seen a lot of commercial providers over the years that had almost no standards (individuals not companies). When you say UPS requires rig washing are you implying the EMS does not require it?

[ny10570 745]

Vacguy, you're right, they are different. My point is in both cases you have individuals who have chosen to give up their own time to train and serve their community yet fire seems to get a higher quality of membership. In this case its not the training that creates this environment, its the leadership and senior members of that agency.

Sorry Bnechris, I wasn't clear. I'm not implying, I am emphatically stating that UPS requires regular cleaning of their vehicles and the vast majority of EMS do not. They may encourage it, maybe even request it but either don't provide the facilities or the motivation to get it done. I know there are individuals out there who clean their buses (I was a regular at the Gun Hill Rd Bus Depot so I could wash my bus), and there may even be an agency that does require this, but it is certainly in the minority.

[Guest]

Vacguy, you're right, they are different. My point is in both cases you have individuals who have chosen to give up their own time to train and serve their community yet fire seems to get a higher quality of membership. In this case its not the training that creates this environment, its the leadership and senior members of that agency.

agreed

[JJB531 652]

JJB, lets compare apples to apples. Volunteer fire, while not the gold standard of physical specimens appear much better than your average VAC. In both cases training is done on your own time in a non academy environment, yet why does one look different from the other? Commercial EMS, compared to just about any other corporate enterprise has stricter standards of appearance. Hell even UPS requires vehicles to be washed on a regular basis. Its the people in charge and the senior members who are responsible for setting the standard. This once again comes down to the rank and file stepping up and demanding more from their co-workers and employers.

I understand what you are saying, and I do agree to an extent. I guess the only points that I can respond to this are:

In terms of uniform appearance, members of a VFD respond to calls in bunker gear. They're not required to wear a uniform, their bunker gear is their

uniform, and although I was never a volunteer firemen, I know their boots don't have laces to tie and I think it would be a little tough to tuck their turnout

coat into their bunker pants

VFD's have been around for considerably longer that VAC's have. Typically from what I have seen there is a decent amount of pride and tradition

associated with being a volunteer firemen (or a career one for that matter). EMS still being fairly young, doesn't have that same long line of pride and

tradition that you see associated with a VFD. Do I think this is a poor excuse? Absolutely. It's not uncommon to see people volunteer at a VFD for 50 or

60 years. With a lot of VAC's the turnover is so high, sometimes you're lucky to get a few years out of someone. That leaves few senior people out there to set the standard, and the standard that a lot of them were taught was that it was okay to go to calls in jeans and a tank top, because that's what's always been done. This standard ends up being passed down from one generation of leadership to the next. I agree that the people in charge and senior members have to set the standard.... absolutely. But the way things are now in terms of uniforms and etiquette is what many believe the standard is simply because they don't know any better!! Dress uniforms for EMS is one thing that has always been a pet peeve of mine. I've been struggling to get the agency that I

work for to adopt a dress uniform for parades and public events. It's just something that for whatever reason EMS has not adopted yet in this area.

EMS, also being a busier entity than fire, even at the volunteer level, leads to increased burnout amongst providers, especially volunteer providers who dedicate so much of their personal time that sometimes it can be too much (almost like a second job). Burnout leads to sloppiness. Along with the tradition concept that I mentioned before, from the little that I do know, I believe alot of VFD's require members to participate in house duties where apparatus are washed quite routinely. I know where I work, our agency runs approximately 2,300 jobs last year, meaning that ambulance is going out the door on average 6 or 7 times a day. The local VFD did about 480 runs last year. Only going out once or twice a day, obviously your apparatus are going to have a better appearance. Once again, not an excuse, but just something to throw out there.

[Guest]

I WAS LIVING IN NORTH CAROLINA FOR A YEAR. AT THAT TIME I WAS A 911 DISPATCHER. WE WERE COUNTY DISPATCH CENTER. EMS WAS COUNTY WIDE RUN. IT IS A GREAT SYSTEM AND GREAT EMS FOLKS. UNFORTUNTLY IN NY TO MANY POLITICS COME INTO AFFECT HERE. IT WOULD BE GREAT TO DO COUNTYWIDE EMS BUT NOW YOU HAVE TO MANY CHIEFS THAT WANT TO STAY CHIEFS AND TOO MANY COMMERCIAL AGENCYS. I THINK IF NORTHERN DUTCHESS AND ALOMO MERGE AND BECOMES A LARGE AGENCY THAT WOULD BE A START TO DUTCHESS COUNTY EMS. BURNOUT IS BAD BC OF THE CALL VOLUME IN EMS AND LOW PAY COMMERCIAL EMS PAYS. THE COUTNY I WORKED FOR IN NORTH CAROLINA. PARAMEDICS WERE MAKING 45 A YEAR AND EMTS WERE MAKING 34-35 A YEAR. IN COMMERCIAL EMS YOU ARE LUCKY TO BREAK 24 A YEAR. ITS A SHAME BC MORE AND MORE EMS CALLS EVERY YEAR AND YET LESS PAY. I HAD WORKED COMMERCIAL EMS FOR YEARS AND RESPECT ANYONE THAT DOES IT. IT IS FOR SURE NOT BC OF THE MONEY BUT BC THEY CARE SOOO MUCH ABOUT WHAT THEY DO ...

[ny10570 745]

This isn't about getting dress uniforms or even a strict duty uniform for volunteers. Unless you're required to be in quarters while on call, its ridiculous to expect a volunteer to spend their day walking around in BDUs, boots, and a uniform shirt all day just in case they get a call. You can however make sure they're wearing something that fits that identifies their agency. The bus doesn't have to be immaculate, but if the roads are sloppy wash it off once in a while.

You don't need 40 year vets to start pressuring people to do the right thing. Ask around, I'm sure some of the older members of a dept or company at times are as much a problem as anyone else. You just need someone to step up and say this is how its done and this is how you will do it if you want to continue with us.

None of this crap is he solution to every problems. This is about bringing your bottom 1/3 up to the next level. As someone else pointed out, you could go out and hand pick the best people to operate in your system, but you'll still have your weak links. The game is to improve or eliminate them so you can move on to the next weak spot, and eventually you wind up with what you're looking for.

[ex-commish 490]

A comment was made that VFD and VAC people are a different breed. Having belong to both as well as doing some ems per-diem work I have yet to see what the diffeence is.

[Guest]

A comment was made that VFD and VAC people are a different breed. Having belong to both as well as doing some ems per-diem work I have yet to see what the diffeence is.

it's a different mentality for each place. obviously neither is right nor wrong, but just different from each other.

[Guest]

A comment was made that VFD and VAC people are a different breed. Having belong to both as well as doing some ems per-diem work I have yet to see what the diffeence is.

JJB's last post is pretty much what i was refering to

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Your right that you can't expect to have out of house VAC members walking around in a uniform. What I don't need to see are butts of people that don't tuck in their shirts. Or thongs for that matter. I don't think the family members need to see that either. It has happened on multiple occasions and it is rather embarrasing.

I guees you can chuckle at it.

I see a difference in the fire service and ems. You can tell if an agency has both and they can get to a fire and not to an ambulance call. That is a huge difference.

[JJB531 652]

This isn't about getting dress uniforms or even a strict duty uniform for volunteers. Unless you're required to be in quarters while on call, its ridiculous to expect a volunteer to spend their day walking around in BDUs, boots, and a uniform shirt all day just in case they get a call. You can however make sure they're wearing something that fits that identifies their agency. The bus doesn't have to be immaculate, but if the roads are sloppy wash it off once in a while.

You don't need 40 year vets to start pressuring people to do the right thing. Ask around, I'm sure some of the older members of a dept or company at times are as much a problem as anyone else. You just need someone to step up and say this is how its done and this is how you will do it if you want to continue with us.

None of this crap is he solution to every problems. This is about bringing your bottom 1/3 up to the next level. As someone else pointed out, you could go out and hand pick the best people to operate in your system, but you'll still have your weak links. The game is to improve or eliminate them so you can move on to the next weak spot, and eventually you wind up with what you're looking for.

I agree that a volunteer shouldn't walk around all day in a uniform, but are you saying that it's professional to show up at a job in sneakers, jeans and a t-shirt? Even if it's a t-shirt that has your agency name on it? I sure don't. The uniform itself is both and identifier and a way of setting a professional public image. I wish more volunteer agencies would consider jumpsuits that they can put on over their daily dress attire so at least they look uniform.

Agreed that you don't need 40 year vets to start pressuring people. But as I stated before, the way things are in EMS right now, this is the accepted way things have been for 30 years. There is such a shortage in EMS, especially in the volunteer sector, that alot of agencies won't say "this is how you will do it if you want to continue with us". They don't want to lose the volunteer personnel they have, and a lot of volunteer agencies are very against hiring or contracting out paid personnel. As it is right now, a lot of agencies (paid and volunteer) can not eliminate people because there is not enough manpower to cover the tours!

I'm sorry that you feel this stuff is crap, but I can't say that I do. This discussion was about why EMS is at a different level than FD and PD. Go to any public function, look at members of an FD all in their Class A's. Look at Police Officers in their Class A's. They all look sharp, uniform, and sometimes wearing those Class A's gives off a sense of pride. Then look at the EMS guys. 3 different styles of BDU's, all different shades of blue. A duty uniform shirt with a ketchup stain from last night's meal. Duty boots, all scuffed up, instead of patent leathers. Maybe a few people here and there wearing an agency baseball cap, instead of a dress 8 point or round top. Now imagine how that looks in the eyes of the public. If you want to be treated as professionals, you have to set a professional image. The majority of the public has no idea what we do, until they need us, and with the expection of the occasional frequent flyer, we only get ONE chance to make an impression on someone. That's it.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

You crack me up JJB.

PRIDE, that is what EMS needs. I don't wear my dress uniform often. Mainly at a funeral. But when I do, I make sure that I looked "squared away". I also look at other agencies dress uniforms. Some are really sharp. I don't see that with EMS. What I see is half shirts, paints that don't stay around the waist because somebody doesn't wear a belt. Sandals, Shorts.

I happened to like wearing a t-shirt. Especially in the summer months. Though that the uniform shirt was too heavy. I guess I had it good then. I sweat in an ICE BOX. Put me with a Tee, vest, and uniform shirt and I am drenched before I walk outdoors.

[Guest]

PRIDE, that is what EMS needs. I don't wear my dress uniform often. Mainly at a funeral. But when I do, I make sure that I looked "squared away". I also look at other agencies dress uniforms. Some are really sharp. I don't see that with EMS. What I see is half shirts, paints that don't stay around the waist because somebody doesn't wear a belt. Sandals, Shorts.

i've looked into changing our dress uniforms and the biggest reason for the subpar uniforms is money. i know some vfd's that recieve almost TEN TIMES the amount of tax money we get, they can afford it. our uniforms cost under $200 per. i looked at great looking ems uniforms that are similar to fd uniforms, but tailored for ems and they ran over $450 per. that's too much money for a vac.

[JJB531 652]

You crack me up JJB.

PRIDE, that is what EMS needs. I don't wear my dress uniform often. Mainly at a funeral. But when I do, I make sure that I looked "squared away". I also look at other agencies dress uniforms. Some are really sharp. I don't see that with EMS. What I see is half shirts, paints that don't stay around the waist because somebody doesn't wear a belt. Sandals, Shorts.

I happened to like wearing a t-shirt. Especially in the summer months. Though that the uniform shirt was too heavy. I guess I had it good then. I sweat in an ICE BOX. Put me with a Tee, vest, and uniform shirt and I am drenched before I walk outdoors.

Well at least I can make someone chuckle Oneeyed... but you are absolutely right, PRIDE is what EMS needs. Why is there a general lack of it? I don't know. Maybe because a lot of people involved in EMS know that they are just using it as a stepping stone to get onto a PD or FD, and know that they're not a "lifer". If you're not going to commit to something as a career (from the paid standpoint), perhaps some won't put forth the effort to improve it. The majority of the great paramedics I've had the pleasure of working with have all moved onto PD or FD jobs or moved onto careers in nursing.

I think there is an inherent sense of pride within the Law Enforcement and Fire Department communities. Wearing a uniform that you know so many others have died wearing while fighting for a COMMON cause (whether it's fighting criminal activity or fighting fire), the way you are viewed by the public as a professional, the fact that you belong to a regimented organization that has standards (haha, can't really say that for the NYPD lately, but that's a different topic), all instills a sense of pride.

I think a lot of my comparisons come from comparing my career as a paramedic to my career as a police officer. When I graduated medic school, we celebrated in a South of the Border restaurant. When I graduated the police academy, I was in my dress blues with an actual ceremony. Did I feel a sense of pride graduating medic school... not really. I felt pretty drunk, that was about it. Did I feel a sense of pride graduating the police academy... absolutely. Because of the atmosphere that surrounded the whole event. Even now, when I put on my medic uniform, as crisp and clean as it might be, people aren't interested in talking to me. People only want to talk to me when they are either sick or need directions. But when I put on my uniform for the police department, people are drawn to that. They want to ask you questions, take pictures with you, and so on. That kind of interaction with the public does instill a sense of pride in a person, and that's interaction that very few people in EMS get to experience.

This even goes back to what I had previously mentioned. I know when Westchester County has medal day for it's law enforcement officers, officers from all over the county gather at the County Center for a nice ceremony, everyone is in their dress blues, the media is there, and they are honored for their achievements, heroism, and service. When Westchester honors its EMS personnel, its done at Playland, with cheeseburgers and keg beer while everyone mulls around in shorts and t-shirts. I'm not knocking the gesture because it is a genuinely nice one, but which of these do you think is going to instill more pride in a person?

[JJB531 652]

i've looked into changing our dress uniforms and the biggest reason for the subpar uniforms is money. i know some vfd's that recieve almost TEN TIMES the amount of tax money we get, they can afford it. our uniforms cost under $200 per. i looked at great looking ems uniforms that are similar to fd uniforms, but tailored for ems and they ran over $450 per. that's too much money for a vac.

This appears very true. VAC's, typically being a busier entity then VFD's, do see more wear and tear on their rigs, are constantly replacing supplies, constantly paying for gas, and now even paying EMT salaries to ensure that their rigs get out the door when the tones drop.

While I'm not very in tune into tax districts, maybe BNechis or someone who is knowledgeable on this topic can justify or dispute the claim that VFD's disproportionately receive more funding from a town than a VAC does.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

How about having a FUNDRAISER? You don't always have to use TAX DOLLARS to get money. Think outside the box. One of the local FD's has an XMAS party every year and they give away $10,000.00. They don't just give it away they sell raffles and then pick 6 winners. I am not saying that you do that, but you could do something like that.

How much could uniforms cost?

EMS doesn't have the camaraderie that PD and FD has. I generally hang with people from my profession and not just my job either. I have met some really good people in LE. I have lots of FF friends as well. I try and make it point to attend EVERY 10-13 party and I am not sure of the 10 code for a FF down but if there is a party for that I go and give my money as well. I think I have only missed 1. Not just in WEST. If I hear of one, I tell people at work and we go. Not only to drink, but to network and too show support. I very rarely see people that I used to work with in EMS. Probably because they are working 8 jobs to make ends meet. I can see how it would be difficult dealing with some people in EMS though. If someone is not approachable then it makes it hard. Some just want to stay within their agency. That makes things hard in EMS. You don't have to like someone but you can at least be cordial.

I guess what I am trying to say is get together with other agencies. Find out what they do to raise money. I am sure that some PD's and FD's hate when other agencies come into their jurisdiction. But we don't fight about it. Do we? Maybe just lots of bitching. Can I say that?