Scene Management Legislation

[helicopper 1,050]

There have been many threads citing legislation that states that "the fire chief is in charge at emergency scenes" or words to that effect. I have asked in those threads for citations to that law but to date have still not received any link or direction to it.

I am asking for anyone with a link/reference/citation to post it here. Please don't post anecdotal "I heard from my instructor this" or "My chief said that" - we've all heard that before. I'm looking for the actual legislation that states anything to this effect.

Local, state, NY or elsewhere is fine.

Someone posted about similiar legislation in CT and if you can find it, I'd appreciate a copy of that too!

Thanks in advance.

Chris

[Guest]

Here's one piece of CT Legislation, its the first thing I could find, I don't know if it is the most definitive:

Sec. 7-313e. Authority of fire officer during emergency. Notwithstanding any provision in the general statutes or a municipal ordinance to the contrary, the fire chief of the municipality, or any member serving in the capacity of fire officer-in-charge, shall, when any fire department or company is responding to or operating at a fire, service call, or other emergency, within such municipality, have the authority to: (a) Control and direct emergency activities at such scene; ( b ) order any person to leave any building or place in the vicinity of such fire for the purpose of protecting such person from injury; ( c ) blockade any public highway, street, or private right-of-way temporarily while at such scene; (d) at any time of the day or night, enter any building, including a private dwelling, or upon any premises where a fire is in progress or near the scene of any fire, or where there is reasonable cause to believe a fire is in progress, for the purpose of extinguishing the fire or preventing its spread; (e) inspect for the purposes of preventing fires and preplanning the control of fire all buildings, structures or other places in their fire district, except the interior of private dwellings, where any combustible material, including but not limited to waste paper, rags, shavings, waste, leather, rubber, crates, boxes, barrels or rubbish, that is or may become dangerous as a fire menace to such buildings, structures or other places has been allowed to accumulate or where such chief or his designated representative has reason to believe that such material has accumulated or is liable to be accumulated; (f) order disengagement or discouplement of any convoy, caravan or train of vehicles, craft or railway cars for the purpose of extinguishing a fire or preventing its spread; and (g) take command of any industrial fire brigade or fire chief when such fire company or department has been called to such industry.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Here's one piece of CT Legislation, its the first thing I could find, I don't know if it is the most definitive:

While this does not rule out PD being incharge, Here is one that we have used in planning:

Under OSHA 29CFR1910.120 THe incident commander shall have training (at a minimum)of at least 24 hours; to the ops level plus ICS. Since it has been interpreted by NYS DOL Admin Law Judge (in a case against Nassau County) that ALL ff must recieve HM OPS prior to responding and in the same case (sorry I don't have the exact case info, was told this by one of the key witnesses in the case back in 1990 or so) PO's are not required to have this level.

So if its leaking, or hazardous chemicals, if the FD Chief is legally quallified and the guys with the guns are not....by default.

Otherwise, I know of no statued (other than the determine the cause of origin and that the property is ours during the time of a fire).

Now, lets consider local policy. In NR we have a document that was approved by the city council that says who is incharge of different types of incidents and the only one thats a little fuzzy is when the snipers home is on fire......lol.

PD...the bullets and us the fire.

I'll stand behind the peacemaker and wait till its clear who's incharge.

[bob803 1]

There have been many threads citing legislation that states that "the fire chief is in charge at emergency scenes" or words to that effect. I have asked in those threads for citations to that law but to date have still not received any link or direction to it.

I am asking for anyone with a link/reference/citation to post it here. Please don't post anecdotal "I heard from my instructor this" or "My chief said that" - we've all heard that before. I'm looking for the actual legislation that states anything to this effect.

Local, state, NY or elsewhere is fine.

Someone posted about similiar legislation in CT and if you can find it, I'd appreciate a copy of that too!

Thanks in advance.

Chris

you may want to check the New York State Mutual Aid plan. I just can't find my copy right now.

[helicopper 1,050]

While this does not rule out PD being incharge, Here is one that we have used in planning:

Under OSHA 29CFR1910.120 THe incident commander shall have training (at a minimum)of at least 24 hours; to the ops level plus ICS. Since it has been interpreted by NYS DOL Admin Law Judge (in a case against Nassau County) that ALL ff must recieve HM OPS prior to responding and in the same case (sorry I don't have the exact case info, was told this by one of the key witnesses in the case back in 1990 or so) PO's are not required to have this level.

So if its leaking, or hazardous chemicals, if the FD Chief is legally quallified and the guys with the guns are not....by default.

Otherwise, I know of no statued (other than the determine the cause of origin and that the property is ours during the time of a fire).

Now, lets consider local policy. In NR we have a document that was approved by the city council that says who is incharge of different types of incidents and the only one thats a little fuzzy is when the snipers home is on fire......lol.

PD...the bullets and us the fire.

I'll stand behind the peacemaker and wait till its clear who's incharge.

Thanks, Barry!

A couple of "what if's" (and yes, I know I'm derailing my own thread)...

What if the Fire Chief or ranking FD officer is not qualified per 1910.120?

How will you resolve the issue of who's in charge question if there is a warrant execution at a clandestine drug lab in the City of New Rochelle? Mind you, I'm aware that you don't permit any such establishments within the city - this is purely hypothetical!

Finally, who's gonna be in charge in New Rochelle during a coastal storm (and no you can't take the day off!)?

[helicopper 1,050]

Slayer61, thanks for the response! This is exactly what I was looking for.

An interesting point is the notwithstanding any other contrary provisions of law... Does the State Police or local police have any empowerment at an emergency scene? I've never seen legislation that placed the resources of one discipline under the operational control of another discipline leading me to suspect that there is language for the police elsewhere in the law or some other means to resolve that issue.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Thanks, Barry!

A couple of "what if's" (and yes, I know I'm derailing my own thread)...

What if the Fire Chief or ranking FD officer is not qualified per 1910.120?

Then if he responded at all, he is in violation of the law. Since "ALL" ff's in NYS are required to meet the standard BEFORE they are ever allowed to respond on a call.

How will you resolve the issue of who's in charge question if there is a warrant execution at a clandestine drug lab in the City of New Rochelle? Mind you, I'm aware that you don't permit any such establishments within the city - this is purely hypothetical!

Unified Command with PD as lead. NRFD & NRPD CIU have cross trained. NRPD is incharge of the entry. NRFD will perform pre-entry med monitoring and suit out of CIU and Decon/Post Med monitoring. NRFD Can suit up to assist in detection or evidence collection (which will be done by PD) after NRPD has determined that no bad guys are present. Neither does the clean-up. PD is incharge, except for suit entry issues (if PO does not meet Med standard FD does not allow suit up).

This has been discused and drilled at length but, is still hypothetical, since our city rule of no drug lab rule has been enough to keep them out. BTW the drills were lots of fun....loved playing with the MP5's at Camp Smith.

Finally, who's gonna be in charge in New Rochelle during a coastal storm (and no you can't take the day off!)?

The Office of Emergency Managment (OEM) under the direction of the City Manager is in Charge. However in past events it is activly run by the FD. The major parts of OEM is run by FD. The City EOC and our new Dispatch Center (DPW, EMS, FD & PD) is in Fire HQ.

[DOC22 1]

All the back-n-forth about who has power over what??? Bottom line: we are all here to do a job! We NEED to learn to work together. Sometimes this mweans EVERYBODY needs to take a step back, and think things through. Sure, the PD wants to keep traffic flowing, but the safety of ALL personnel at the scene needs to be #1 priority! I worked a werck on 684 during the morning rush hour. ONE trooper on scene. after two more PIAAs occurred due to northbounc rubberneckers, we closed all lanes in both directions. Got lots of troopers, then. But even after that, we have probably an even better working relationship with all PDs in our area. In those areas where there are authority problems between PD, EMS, FD, well, maybe you should all get together and set up some workable options.

RANT OVER

[Doc 11]

This is the only controlling language I can find in New York State law is Article 176-a in Town Laws.

"§ 176-a. Duties of chief and assistant chiefs of fire department of

fire district. 1. The chief shall, under the direction of the board of

fire commissioners, have exclusive control of the members of the fire

department of the fire district at all fires, inspections, reviews and

other occasions when the fire department is on duty or parade; he shall

also have supervision of the engines, fire trucks, pumpers, hose wagons

and other apparatus and of the equipment and other property used for the

prevention or extinguishment of fire and of all officers and employees

of the fire department. He shall see that the rules and regulations of

the board of fire commissioners are observed and that the orders of the

board of fire commissioners are duly executed. ..."

For village fire departments there is also Article 10-1018 which pretty much says the same thing. From Village Laws

"§ 10-1018 Duties of chief and assistants. The chief shall be president

of the council and of the meetings of the fire department. He shall,

under the direction of a separate board of fire commissioners, if any,

have exclusive control of the members at all fires, inspections and

reviews, the supervision of the engines, hose and other apparatus owned

by the village for the prevention or extinguishment of fires, of all

property owned by the fire department, and of all officers and employees

thereof elected or employed by the council or by a separate board of

fire commissioners, if any. "

[Monty 35]

Then if he responded at all, he is in violation of the law. Since "ALL" ff's in NYS are required to meet the standard BEFORE they are ever allowed to respond on a call.

Unified Command with PD as lead. NRFD & NRPD CIU have cross trained. NRPD is incharge of the entry. NRFD will perform pre-entry med monitoring and suit out of CIU and Decon/Post Med monitoring. NRFD Can suit up to assist in detection or evidence collection (which will be done by PD) after NRPD has determined that no bad guys are present. Neither does the clean-up. PD is incharge, except for suit entry issues (if PO does not meet Med standard FD does not allow suit up).

This has been discused and drilled at length but, is still hypothetical, since our city rule of no drug lab rule has been enough to keep them out. BTW the drills were lots of fun....loved playing with the MP5's at Camp Smith.

The Office of Emergency Managment (OEM) under the direction of the City Manager is in Charge. However in past events it is activly run by the FD. The major parts of OEM is run by FD. The City EOC and our new Dispatch Center (DPW, EMS, FD & PD) is in Fire HQ.

Unfortunately - another law that a lot of people turn a blind eye to. Like many other things, it's been OK for the last 999 responses - but one day, that one in a million chance will happen. Something will go wrong. Maybe the missing training wouldn't have changed the situation (maybe it would) but I'm sure lack of training/qualification is going to come up and be a problem.

Sorry for the little digression Chris At least I got that off my chest

[Bnechis 3,961]

Unfortunately - another law that a lot of people turn a blind eye to. Like many other things, it's been OK for the last 999 responses - but one day, that one in a million chance will happen. Something will go wrong. Maybe the missing training wouldn't have changed the situation (maybe it would) but I'm sure lack of training/qualification is going to come up and be a problem.

Sorry for the little digression Chris At least I got that off my chest

Less of a blind eye than some would think. The state training records CD clearly shows who has the training and who does not. They have said they will not allow untrained ff's from responding during a state fire mobilization. Also others have been looking at it to determine who should be requested for MA.

I was shocked to find a number of depts in Westchester that had almost no one "certified". One dept. publicly has claimed they have 45 active members, but the states list only showed 3 members could legally respond to calls. In another dept. the chief, AC and 3 Capts did not meet the standards. The AC actually had no documented training.

Now it is possible that they have the training and its just not on the states rolls, but I doubt it.

You are right they will be able to get away with it for a long time, but Its going to catch up with them.

[Guest]

With reference to what slayer61 posted, what are your options when someone does refuse to leave a building?

[Remember585 815]

Just to clarify, 24 hours of "Ops" training - pertains to Haz-mat?

If so, the Haz-Mat First Responder Ops class is only 16 hours.... where do the other 8 come from?

I always thought it was required to have 12 hours?

And for the FF's - I always was under the impression that Awareness was the only required training.

I hate sounding dumb, but I need to know. Thanks.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Remember585

[Monty 35]

Just to clarify, 24 hours of "Ops" training - pertains to Haz-mat?

If so, the Haz-Mat First Responder Ops class is only 16 hours.... where do the other 8 come from?

I always thought it was required to have 12 hours?

And for the FF's - I always was under the impression that Awareness was the only required training.

I hate sounding dumb, but I need to know. Thanks.

Here's an interesting letter from OSHA - my take is that essentially pretty much everyone (PD, DPW, FF, etc) requires awareness. To respond to a dispatched (possible) Hazmat call, you need to be at the operations level per the link.

As for hours it looks like Awareness is 8, Operations is 16 (combined gives you 24) + the annual (8hr?) refresher. I'm sure there's specific info in the CFR but I just did a quick google. CFR 1910.120(e) covers the training requirements - but of course that's not simple English

Incidentally, as Incident Commander, my understanding is that you are responsible for the MA you call - might be something to think about based on Bnechis earlier information.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just to clarify, 24 hours of "Ops" training - pertains to Haz-mat?

Yes Hazmat 1st Responder Operatons

If so, the Haz-Mat First Responder Ops class is only 16 hours.... where do the other 8 come from?

ICS, Competency Testing (which is not included in OFPC course) and Review of your dept's SOP's and Response Policies (not covered by OFPC).

I always thought it was required to have 12 hours?

Actually OSHA does not put a time limit...they require the FD to insure competence in a series of areas (listed in 29CFR1910.120

I hate sounding dumb, but I need to know. Thanks.

Not dumb...The majority of the fire service is unaware of the requirements. It does not help that OFPC does not tell anyone that any of there OSHA based classes (Hazmat, Confined Space, Trench) only partially meet the law. It also does not help that when they merged Basic FF & HM OPS into FF1 they only scheduled 9 hours to cover 16 hours worth of material.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Here's an interesting letter from OSHA - my take is that essentially pretty much everyone (PD, DPW, FF, etc) requires awareness. To respond to a dispatched (possible) Hazmat call, you need to be at the operations level per the link.

And since by definition most calls we go on are HM calls....i.e. odors, MVA's, fires, EMS all meet the definition of HM.

This is the definition that sets FF's apart from other responders:

29 CFR 1910.120(q)(6)(ii) states, "First responders at the operations level are individuals who respond to releases or potential releases of hazardous substances as part of an initial response to the site for the purpose of protecting nearby persons, property, or the environment from the effects of the release."

In the late 1980's OFPC's HM Bureau reported that Nassau county trained every ff in the county to HM Awareness and NYS DOL (PESH) sited them for not meeting the standard. Note prior to this NYS had HM 1 & 2 (1 was better than aware, but not up to ops. HM2 was better than ops but below tech. )

Incidentally, as Incident Commander, my understanding is that you are responsible for the MA you call - might be something to think about based on Bnechis earlier information.

good point

[Beekman 5]

A word of warning about the State CD and the on-line records; half of my department isn't listed on my roster on the State website through the NFIRS reporting system. I actually found the site by accident working on NFIRs for work. I've never received a CD.

So half of my members aren't listed and some, myself included, have records split among two departments. My "real" training record is attached to a Department I haven't worked for in 4 years. If you look me up under Beekman I only have two classes. I'm not one of those Chiefs!

[helicopper 1,050]

bump... Again, if any of our members from other states would like to chime in with the statutes on the books in their states, please do!

I guess there is no specific law in NY granting anyone exclusive control of anything other than their own resources.