Non-EMT's in VAC's

[Guest feraldan]

For the VAC's out there that allow non-medical personnel (CFR or above) to ride on calls, what is the defined role that you give them? This is not including drivers who obvious have an important job to do.

Do they just carry equipment and help move the patient?

Do you allow them to take vitals?

Do they ask the patient questions?

Do they ask the patient medical questions?

What minimum training have you provided for them? They should have OSHA BBP but do they have CPR? Additional training?

Do you require that they advance to a medically qualified position? As in, do they need to join an EMT class within 1 year or 2?

Would you allow them to wear duty belts and badges?

Do you ever find that they cause problems or overstep their limitations (if there are any)?

[mfkap 0]

Do they just carry equipment and help move the patient?

Do you allow them to take vitals?

Do they ask the patient questions?

Do they ask the patient medical questions?

What minimum training have you provided for them? They should have OSHA BBP but do they have CPR? Additional training?

Do you require that they advance to a medically qualified position? As in, do they need to join an EMT class within 1 year or 2?

Would you allow them to wear duty belts and badges?

Do you ever find that they cause problems or overstep their limitations (if there are any)?

Our VAC allows non-medical crew. They are there mainly to help carry, to gopher, and to drive the paramedic flycar when the paramedic rides along. For your questions:

Yes, they are trained in how our stretcher operates, but are not left to move the patient alone

No, if they take vitals that guide your treatment and they are incorrect, it is your a$$ on the line. We let EMT students take vitals, and if we are suspicious of them we can retake them.

They gather non-medical info from the patients, such as name, address, etc. They sometimes write down things as the EMT interviews, such as past medical, meds, allergies, etc.

You need to have BBP and CPR to ride. We also have a fairly in-depth training rotation set up, for them to learn how to operate the stretcher, stair chair, where things are in the bus, decon, etc.

We do not require them to have any interest in advancing (this is something I personally disagree with). Currently, they can be a member for years and never join an EMT class or have any interest in the medical side of things.

Duty Belts and badges, doesn't matter to me. They can waste their money on whatever they want. We provide every crew member, EMT, driver, or aide, with a badge. If they want to play Batman, go ahead.

They sometimes do cause problems or overstep their limitations. I have found that it is usually the younger, newer members where this is a problem. Also, there are a few people that do not quite have the ability to (ever) pass the EMT-B class, and those people are usually disruptive on the call just because they are like a lost dog and require too much instruction to be helpful.

Hope this helps.

[firemoose827 324]

For the VAC's out there that allow non-medical personnel (CFR or above) to ride on calls, what is the defined role that you give them? This is not including drivers who obvious have an important job to do.

Do they just carry equipment and help move the patient?

Yes, we have "Attendants" that help with Equipment and lifting, some even act as scribe and write down notes for the EMT.

Do you allow them to take vitals?

Some yes. After they receive training and are OK'd by the officers. Some who Were EMT's are classic examples.

Do they ask the patient questions?

Do they ask the patient medical questions?

No. They are only there for assistance and an extra pair of hands.

What minimum training have you provided for them? They should have OSHA BBP but do they have CPR? Additional training?

Do you require that they advance to a medically qualified position? As in, do they need to join an EMT class within 1 year or 2?

They are required to get and maintain their CPR cards. Other than that they are expected to know the location of all equipment and the operation of the stretcher, stair chair, ect. We do this primarily because it allows the people who are not sure yet if they want to be an EMT to "Test the Waters" and find out if its what they want. Than, when they do go on for their EMT cards they have some experience, and continued hands on training in the field during their class time.

Some of our attendants even receive a basic training class from the county medics on how to spike a bag of fluids, and set up NS Locks and prepare the meds for the medic ( Like D50, pop the tops and screw the two parts together and clear the air)

Would you allow them to wear duty belts and badges?

Do you ever find that they cause problems or overstep their limitations (if there are any)?

The only problem I have seen is with the Ex-EMT's that let their cards drop due to lack of time to recert, or they just didnt want the responsibility any more. They sometimes get the old spark back and want to jump in and lead the call, but with a gentle reminder they always resume their functions as attendant. The attendants are also good for driving the ALS fly-cars to the ER for the County Medics so we dont have to drop them back off at the scene. They realy are great to have, extra hands go a long way in a code situation where you need gophers, chest compressions, lifting assistance, or someone to hold the IV bag.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

For the VAC's out there that allow non-medical personnel (CFR or above) to ride on calls, what is the defined role that you give them? This is not including drivers who obvious have an important job to do.

1. Do they just carry equipment and help move the patient?

2. Do you allow them to take vitals?

3. Do they ask the patient questions?

4. Do they ask the patient medical questions?

5. What minimum training have you provided for them? They should have OSHA BBP but do they have CPR? Additional training?

6. Do you require that they advance to a medically qualified position? As in, do they need to join an EMT class within 1 year or 2?

7. Would you allow them to wear duty belts and badges?

8. Do you ever find that they cause problems or overstep their limitations (if there are any)?

Basing this on my old VAC member days and from the ones that are my transport agencies where I work that I'm familiar with.

1. Yes

2. Yes...as long as they are in a CFR or EMT course. I also teach them how to spike a bag, put on leads and anything else within BLS scope that patient condition warrants the ability for them to learn (vitals, lung sounds, etc)

3. NO

4. NO

5. All required OSHA training BBP, Hazard Communications, Hazmat Awareness and most require CPR

6. Not sure, but some I think are accepting of some as drivers only.

7. See no real reason why they would need to, or anyone for that matter. I try to steer students away from this practice as it can be unsafe and can be hard to distinguish EMS personnel from police officers. Also there has been discussion that OSHA wants to get away from badges/collar brass for obvious reasons.

8. Very very rarely. I still have an issue on occassion where some VAC's have persons you know by voice who are only drivers getting on the radio and cancelling ALS. While most of us are confident this is a relay through the EMT on scene it still raises the question of who is actually cancelling us.

[helicopper 1,050]

OK, now to ask the important question...

Is a non-qualified "crew member" (not CFR/EMT and not pursuing it either) worth the expense to the agency? Uniforms, insurance, training, equipment, vaccinations, etc. are not cheap! If the person has no intention of becoming a driver (and I question the usefulness of just drivers, too) or an EMT they are frankly a drain on the agency - they do not contribute to the minimum staffing necessary so the ambulance can respond with or without them.

Is it worth carrying these members on the roster? Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to recruit people who are or are willing to become EMTs?

[Guest feraldan]

I imagine for most organizations, there is a strong desire that they advance to at LEAST a driver position. If you look at it from the most fundamental perspective, what is required to get out for a call? A driver and an EMT.. therefore (looking at it only fundamentally), if you volunteer at a VAC and do not pursue either, you're not contributing to getting the bus out to cover runs.

However, a lot can be said for an extra pair of hands that helps record info or get other materials ready. A lot of VAC volunteers are "weekend warrior" types who don't want to or can't commit time to train as an EMT or driver. Our agency, however, makes it ridiculously easy to become qualified as a driver so I can't see why people wouldn't want to take on the task.

I'm having a large issue right now with non-EMT's overstepping their bounds and/or not wanting to advance. These are obviously two separate issues but both are serious in my eyes.

I've had many instances of non-EMT's asking medical questions or telling a patient that something was or was not normal for their condition/injury. I've had a couple that touched the patient inappropriately or after care was transferred. Its my feeling that if you have no medical experience, you should not be palpitating a patient or playing doctor.

Edited February 19, 2008 by feraldan

[helicopper 1,050]

I imagine for most organizations, there is a strong desire that they advance to at LEAST a driver position. If you look at it from the most fundamental perspective, what is required to get out for a call? A driver and an EMT.. therefore (looking at it only fundamentally), if you volunteer at a VAC and do not pursue either, you're not contributing to getting the bus out to cover runs.

However, a lot can be said for an extra pair of hands that helps record info or get other materials ready. A lot of VAC volunteers are "weekend warrior" types who don't want to or can't commit time to train as an EMT or driver. Our agency, however, makes it ridiculously easy to become qualified as a driver so I can't see why people wouldn't want to take on the task.

I'm having a large issue right now with non-EMT's overstepping their bounds and/or not wanting to advance. These are obviously two separate issues but both are serious in my eyes.

I've had many instances of non-EMT's asking medical questions or telling a patient that something was or was not normal for their condition/injury. I've had a couple that touched the patient inappropriately or after care was transferred.

Sure, an extra pair of hands is "nice" but an extra pair of EMT hands is better! If they won't commit to training and have the audacity to give you and your crews grief by overstepping their bounds, they need to be dealt with!

Sounds like an unenviable position. Good luck!

[Guest feraldan]

Sure, an extra pair of hands is "nice" but an extra pair of EMT hands is better! If they won't commit to training and have the audacity to give you and your crews grief by overstepping their bounds, they need to be dealt with!

Sounds like an unenviable position. Good luck!

I do agree with you but I also think its entirely possible that people want to volunteer but don't have time to commit to becoming an EMT.

I wanted to get a feeler for how other VAC's handle non-EMT's and what their responsibilities are.

[NWFDMedic 58]

OK, now to ask the important question...

Is a non-qualified "crew member" (not CFR/EMT and not pursuing it either) worth the expense to the agency? Uniforms, insurance, training, equipment, vaccinations, etc. are not cheap! If the person has no intention of becoming a driver (and I question the usefulness of just drivers, too) or an EMT they are frankly a drain on the agency - they do not contribute to the minimum staffing necessary so the ambulance can respond with or without them.

Is it worth carrying these members on the roster? Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to recruit people who are or are willing to become EMTs?

Well, that's an interesting viewpoint and you do have some valid points. I'm not a member of a VAC anymore, but I do work with them every day. Many of your EMTs and drivers would not be capable of working as a 2 person crew. Maybe one of the crew members is a bit "older" and can't lift anymore. If someone is willing to ride the ambulance and do other things like maintain the apparatus and station, contribute to the business end of the VAC, and/or raise funds, then they are definitely worth the expense. If they are causing problems, then they may not be someone you want to keep around, but that goes for EMT, driver, whatever.

Another note on the questions asked... the VAC I belonged to most recently had a restriction on corps. equipment being worn by non-EMTs while not on duty. From a liability standpoint, we didn't want Joe Attendant roaming around Wal-Mart and get looked to in the event of an emergency as a medical authority of some kind. As far as badges are concerned, they are best kept in your wallet or on your dress uniform.

P.S.: If a volunteer agency starts discriminating too much and the wrong person catches wind of it, you could have a nightmare on your hands. You don't want someone in the community saying to the paper "I wanted to help, but the wouldn't let me."

Edited February 19, 2008 by NWFDMedic

[nycemt728 49]

With regards to non emts overstepping their bounds, I agree it is a tough spot. Hands on experience is the best way to learn, no question and they often times provide much needed assistance. However, I realize the need to be experienced and acccurate when dealing w/ patients. I have had my share of overeager non-emts, I have found the best way to handle them is to give them very very clear instructions, starting from leaving from the station. Based on the call type, you can assign what equpment they need to grab and set up immediately, ie : Ok, we're going to a ______ call, your one job/priority is to set up the stair chair and clear a pathway to the door. Bottom line, is if you continue to give them tasks, they can't interfere w/ patient care as much. If you feel there will be an issue in the bus, you could have them sit up front for the sake of pt care (ie you moving around the back taking care of the pt) As for in the ER, the tasks continue, restock, get times etc. Always remember your in charge, don't hesitate to use that to your advange for your and the pts benefit. Talk before a call and make it very clear what they are allowed to do and what they are not allowed to do, and follow up with that after the call. If it continues to be prb, perhaps a supervisor should handle.

[firemoose827 324]

I find it interesting to read how different people from different areas feel on different topics, this being one of them. I would like to add to a few things already mentioned.

Chris192, I see where you are coming from with the vaccinations and what not, but you also have to try and look beyond youre area of the world to see where some of us are coming from. There are a lot of people out there who just plain want to help someone....but for various reasons dont want to be an EMT. There are some that just cant handle the responsibility or they are scared...but when they ride the ambulance and watch a few calls they usually end up moving on; either leaving the squad, or even better, Becoming an EMT. Some are just not capable of Learning the EMT curriculum, like one guy in our squad who has taken the EMT class 3 times so far and failed...even with a dozen of us helping him and studying with him, he just couldnt comprehend the material, but he wanted so desperately to help people. So now he is just an attendant. Even with a guy like him sitting next to the patient holding their hands and talking with them helps out tremendously. It takes their minds off the pain, and allows us ( EMT's) to treat them without fighting them.

I could go on and on about some of the volunteer personalities I have run into over the years as captain and Lt, but those are the major ones. It also helps people feel good about themselves and strengthens the community by allowing people to join as attendants. There are some squads in our area that have tremendous pride, and have set crews for 12 hour blocks nights and weekends and they have compititions to see how many calls each crew has. And when I say crew I mean a driver, EMT, 1 or 2 attendants, and sometimes an ALS provider depending on their work schedules. Theres one crew that has 6 people and they are all close and work very well together.

So, even the lowly attendant has pride in helping people and therefore should get atleast a Jacket with the squad name on it. Around here we are all clearly designated with CFR, EMT, and Paramedic patches. The drivers have thei CEVO patches on their coats and the attendants get their CPR, and some have Ha-Mat 1st Responder patches. Just something to show their pride in what they do for their community.

Stay Safe

Moose

[helicopper 1,050]

I find it interesting to read how different people from different areas feel on different topics, this being one of them. I would like to add to a few things already mentioned.

Chris192, I see where you are coming from with the vaccinations and what not, but you also have to try and look beyond youre area of the world to see where some of us are coming from. There are a lot of people out there who just plain want to help someone....but for various reasons dont want to be an EMT. There are some that just cant handle the responsibility or they are scared...but when they ride the ambulance and watch a few calls they usually end up moving on; either leaving the squad, or even better, Becoming an EMT. Some are just not capable of Learning the EMT curriculum, like one guy in our squad who has taken the EMT class 3 times so far and failed...even with a dozen of us helping him and studying with him, he just couldnt comprehend the material, but he wanted so desperately to help people. So now he is just an attendant. Even with a guy like him sitting next to the patient holding their hands and talking with them helps out tremendously. It takes their minds off the pain, and allows us ( EMT's) to treat them without fighting them.

I could go on and on about some of the volunteer personalities I have run into over the years as captain and Lt, but those are the major ones. It also helps people feel good about themselves and strengthens the community by allowing people to join as attendants. There are some squads in our area that have tremendous pride, and have set crews for 12 hour blocks nights and weekends and they have compititions to see how many calls each crew has. And when I say crew I mean a driver, EMT, 1 or 2 attendants, and sometimes an ALS provider depending on their work schedules. Theres one crew that has 6 people and they are all close and work very well together.

So, even the lowly attendant has pride in helping people and therefore should get atleast a Jacket with the squad name on it. Around here we are all clearly designated with CFR, EMT, and Paramedic patches. The drivers have thei CEVO patches on their coats and the attendants get their CPR, and some have Ha-Mat 1st Responder patches. Just something to show their pride in what they do for their community.

Stay Safe

Moose

Moose, I completely understand your position and am not against having a handful of those "just want to help people types" in an organization but what happens when the majority shifts - say from 10% non-EMT to 60% non-EMT and you can't cover calls? That's the scenario that I'm more concerned about. What happens when non-EMT's become the line officers in an organization and start directing the certified members' actions? There have been threads about this before - who is in charge of patient care yada yada. These scenarios are unfortunately quite common and put the EMT in the position of having to risk their certification or challenge a line officer who has no clue about patient care.

I've never understood why an agency would allow a member to run for an officer position without having at least an EMT certification but that's just me!

As for the earlier post about people not being able to lift their share anymore - if that's how your agency operates, so be it. But the job description of an EMT issued by the DOH Bureau of EMS does describe certain lifting requirements.

Don't get me wrong, if you can run with a crew of three all the better! I just don't agree with agencies sitting in quarters with a driver and an EMT toning out for an "attendant". That's just ridiculous!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Around here we are all clearly designated with CFR, EMT, and Paramedic patches. The drivers have thei CEVO patches on their coats and the attendants get their CPR, and some have Ha-Mat 1st Responder patches.

Clearly designated to whom? For the most part the general public and many police officers I deal with have no clue what a CFR, EMT or Paramedic can or cannot do or that there is even a difference in scope of practice.

I had one instance where an agency was allowing EMT-I's to operate under their agency name/code, the agency had their name "XYZ Paramedics" on their patch which many of them wore jackets and such with that and an EMT-I patch on the other. Not very clear, then again the only ones that would notice it perhaps are those of us that understand those subtlitites.

Some are just not capable of Learning the EMT curriculum, like one guy in our squad who has taken the EMT class 3 times so far and failed...even with a dozen of us helping him and studying with him, he just couldnt comprehend the material, but he wanted so desperately to help people. So now he is just an attendant.

Good point and I've seen both sides of this. The positive in a person like the instance you describe and then there is the flip side that because they still ride and may get good call volume they believe they could be an EMT "if it just weren't for the test." Those are the ones that you have to keep an eye on and reel in once in a while.

[firemoose827 324]

Moose, I completely understand your position and am not against having a handful of those "just want to help people types" in an organization but what happens when the majority shifts - say from 10% non-EMT to 60% non-EMT and you can't cover calls? That's the scenario that I'm more concerned about. What happens when non-EMT's become the line officers in an organization and start directing the certified members' actions? There have been threads about this before - who is in charge of patient care yada yada. These scenarios are unfortunately quite common and put the EMT in the position of having to risk their certification or challenge a line officer who has no clue about patient care.

I've never understood why an agency would allow a member to run for an officer position without having at least an EMT certification but that's just me!

As for the earlier post about people not being able to lift their share anymore - if that's how your agency operates, so be it. But the job description of an EMT issued by the DOH Bureau of EMS does describe certain lifting requirements.

Don't get me wrong, if you can run with a crew of three all the better! I just don't agree with agencies sitting in quarters with a driver and an EMT toning out for an "attendant". That's just ridiculous!

Oh I agree totally chris. We had a gentleman who didnt want to be an EMT but was a Manager at a local ARC home and had good people skills that offered to run for Captain to help run the squad while we were low on EMT's. He was quickly shot down, Nicely, and explained exactly what you said, we would not be able to allow someone without EMS skills and experience to boss around an EMT and tell them how to handle pt care. He understood.

As far as toning out for an attendant, NO! LOL We dont do that, if they are not at the rig before it leaves than they lost out. The same for our EMS explorers. We leave when we get an EMT and a driver.

Most of the time we are spoiled and get 2-3 attendants a call to help, which is great!

Moose

[Guest feraldan]

The fear is that the standard becomes something along the lines of "Oh don't bother becoming an EMT, its all common sense anyway."

I've actually heard that line come out of someone's mouth.

If membership slides to a non-EMT majority, including leadership spots, the non-EMT takes control and gets to dictate how things are done. People start saying things like, "What harm is there in asking a few questions?" or "Everybody knows how to treat that kind of injury, its just common sense." or "I'm a supervisor at work, why would I take orders here?"

Every person who has taken care of children, heard their grandmother's remedy for a cold or worked in healthcare thinks they know exactly what to do.

How do you tell a non-EMT officer to stop doing something? What if they refuse to listen? How do you look for guidance from your leadership if they are less trained or experienced than you are?

[pd125 0]

The fear is that the standard becomes something along the lines of "Oh don't bother becoming an EMT, its all common sense anyway."

I've actually heard that line come out of someone's mouth.

If membership slides to a non-EMT majority, including leadership spots, the non-EMT takes control and gets to dictate how things are done. People start saying things like, "What harm is there in asking a few questions?" or "Everybody knows how to treat that kind of injury, its just common sense." or "I'm a supervisor at work, why would I take orders here?"

Every person who has taken care of children, heard their grandmother's remedy for a cold or worked in healthcare thinks they know exactly what to do.

How do you tell a non-EMT officer to stop doing something? What if they refuse to listen? How do you look for guidance from your leadership if they are less trained or experienced than you are?

The non EMT while they are a part of our squad for them to become an EMS officer NO! The only regular non EMT on our ambulance is the driver. Other non EMTs ride if they are in school(EMT). Only the civil officers are allowed to be non EMT. Our drivers will get name, DOB etc. But the EMT calls all shots on patient care.

[helicopper 1,050]

The fear is that the standard becomes something along the lines of "Oh don't bother becoming an EMT, its all common sense anyway."

I've actually heard that line come out of someone's mouth.

If membership slides to a non-EMT majority, including leadership spots, the non-EMT takes control and gets to dictate how things are done. People start saying things like, "What harm is there in asking a few questions?" or "Everybody knows how to treat that kind of injury, its just common sense." or "I'm a supervisor at work, why would I take orders here?"

Every person who has taken care of children, heard their grandmother's remedy for a cold or worked in healthcare thinks they know exactly what to do.

How do you tell a non-EMT officer to stop doing something? What if they refuse to listen? How do you look for guidance from your leadership if they are less trained or experienced than you are?

Very well said! The issue of non-medical personnel in leadership roles is a significant one. Would the fire service ever dream of electing me chief? Of course not (and rightfully so)!

When the conflict between certified and non-certified arises with regard to patient care, the EMT can/should refer the officer to the NYS DOH Bureau of EMS for clarification. The certified member of the crew is responsible for patient care decisions.

If you're a certified agency, there may be some other operational issues that the DOH can assist you with but for other stuff, the boss is the boss - regardless of what they are qualified in! Protocol, and Part 800 compliance is not common sense. Running an EMS agency is not common sense either!

[res6cue 67]

Playing Devil's advocate, and just for the sake of this question, forget the legal issues for a minute:

How many of us have seen non-EMTs who have many years of experience in the back of a rig, and are damn good, they just never got the card? Wouldn't you trust your life in their hands than that of someone fresh out of EMT class? I've known and worked with a few in my time!

Again, I'm not talking about the legal implications, just a simple question. Let's be honest, the EMT class/test is not exactly rocket science. There is nothing in that class you can't learn on the job if you have the right people teaching you. Just like a lot of EMTs pick up ALS skills on the job by working with good Medics, it's not too difficult to get someone up to EMT level over the course of a few months in the back of the rig. To say nothing of the people who have been doing it for years. Is it really any different if an experienced EMT/Medic teaches someone how to take vitals on the street than it is in a classroom? It's usually the same EMT/Medic teaching the classes anyway. And no, I'm not putting the EMT position down as being "easy"...I was one myself.

Let the flaming begin!

[MoFire390 118]

For the VAC's out there that allow non-medical personnel (CFR or above) to ride on calls, what is the defined role that you give them? This is not including drivers who obvious have an important job to do.

Do they just carry equipment and help move the patient?

Do you allow them to take vitals?

Do they ask the patient questions?

Do they ask the patient medical questions?

What minimum training have you provided for them? They should have OSHA BBP but do they have CPR? Additional training?

Do you require that they advance to a medically qualified position? As in, do they need to join an EMT class within 1 year or 2?

Would you allow them to wear duty belts and badges?

Do you ever find that they cause problems or overstep their limitations (if there are any)?

I have been in the EMS field for a few years now. I was at one time one of those "non-medical" personnel. I was allowed to fill out everything but the boxes and the middle of the PCR. for example if the call was BLS: I took down the Patients name, DOB, Address, phone #, SS#,medications, Dr information, and looked for the "vile of life" in the residence, I assisted with lifting and carring equipment as well. On auto accidents I did immoblization of the patient and was pretty much the "go fer" when everything was clear. If the call was ALS I drove the medic truck to the hospital for the medic. Through the time before I became a driver i did learn how to take a BP (w/ a scope and by palp{propably spelt wrong}), how to spike a bag for a medic, how to hook up the monitor for the medic, and NOT to close up the medics things before they are done with them. Right ALS. OOPS my bad.

[Guest feraldan]

How many of us have seen non-EMTs who have many years of experience in the back of a rig, and are damn good, they just never got the card? Wouldn't you trust your life in their hands than that of someone fresh out of EMT class? I've known and worked with a few in my time!

So then the question is, why bother getting the EMT card?

If you have non-EMT's running around and performing all of the tasks that EMT's perform, the certification process becomes a worthless formality. It becomes one of those things people only do because the state requires it to get the bus out.

Would the fire service ever dream of electing me chief? Of course not (and rightfully so)!

I brought up this same point in a discussion about the matter and I think its a great comparison.

Its unthinkable that a fire chief would be elected or promoted that had not yet taken Firefighter Essentials or Firefighter 1. If you're in the business of putting out fires, its beyond comprehension that you'd have a commander who has no fire training.

So why is it that we accept non-EMT officers when the EMS is the business of helping people medically?

[ex-commish 490]

I'm having a large issue right now with non-EMT's overstepping their bounds and/or not wanting to advance. These are obviously two separate issues but both are serious in my eyes.

I've had many instances of non-EMT's asking medical questions or telling a patient that something was or was not normal for their condition/injury. I've had a couple that touched the patient inappropriately or after care was transferred. Its my feeling that if you have no medical experience, you should not be palpitating a patient or playing doctor.

This can be dangerous for the patient. In the past I have asked people like this simply to go to the rig and pretend he/she is a wheel chock. It is an important job

[nycemt728 49]

Its unthinkable that a fire chief would be elected or promoted that had not yet taken Firefighter Essentials or Firefighter 1. If you're in the business of putting out fires, its beyond comprehension that you'd have a commander who has no fire training.

Agreed, but is there any similar recourse in EMS??? Seriously, if a Chief of a VAC no longer holds any medical certifcation, what can you do? It's innapproriate and probably a liability, but is there legislation or rules from the DOH?

[ex-commish 490]

Its unthinkable that a fire chief would be elected or promoted that had not yet taken Firefighter Essentials or Firefighter 1. If you're in the business of putting out fires, its beyond comprehension that you'd have a commander who has no fire training.

So why is it that we accept non-EMT officers when the EMS is the business of helping people medically?

In many volunteer fd/ems agencies you have chiefs that are not emt's but they do not get involved with patient care nor do they get involved with the "hands on" day to day ops of ems. In my dept we have ems officers who by district rules must be emt's and handle all ems issues ( QA, QI, ordering supplies, ems training, etc) and naturally the emt handles patient care on an ems job but a fire chief is not going to call the shots on patient care but does call the shots at a fire.