What's in it for me?

[JBE 328]

Rather than muddy up a fine incident workshop thread, I decided to start this one about a shift in attitudes. I've been seeing it more and more often in my line of work, and I am sure you guys out in the field are seeing it too. Before I begin, let me emphasize rather strongly, I AM NOT BASHING ANY PERSON, PROFESSION, OR DEPARTMENT!!!!!

One of the points that got brought up is a general lack of knowledge. Street names, street locations. I do my best as a boss to stress learning this sort of thing because it will only benefit you. If an education type day comes along where you get some training on OT, and for some reason you miss it, take a little effort to learn that information while you're being paid straight time. Unfortunately, those I have suggested to immediately say they want the OT for it. Sometimes it boils down to wanting fairness, which I can understand. Most often in my eyes, it comes down to laziness, plain and simple.

It could also be something that is required. It may not say it in your job requirements, which are usually the minimum required, but you should be educated on the aspect of your job. It may not seem like much, but it can only benefit you in the end.

I could go on for a week with different examples, but it makes me very disheartened to see people who have the potential to be superstars in their line of work fizzle out for whatever reasons. Does anyone have any clue what brought on this shift in attitudes?? And I am personally getting really tired of hearing, "That's not in my job description". These are usually the first people to complain about something that's a perk or privilege afforded them.

One bright side to this, and this is a bash when it comes to the person I am discussing. Simply put, if ignorance were dollar bills, this person would be richer than Trump. We had an accident on the BRP, and the assignment was screwed up before we turned it out. I looked over, asked what the CAD was recommending, and definitely didn't like what I heard. So, I said, "Send these two from this exit, and these two from this exit." After a minute of this person doing as ordered, they said sheepishly, "Now I know why Jimmy tells us all the time to learn where the firehouses are. So we can just look and see who to send when the computer doesn't get it right." I don't know if it truly sunk in, but I hope maybe one of these days it will.

The current "senior guys" aren't always gonna be there, and the responsibility is going to fall on the not so senior folks, and I think the respect gets lost when the IDGAF attitude, or the IGM attitude comes in to play. And when it hits the fan, and you're that senior guy, and the Johnnies, Probies and Boots are looking at you and you're clueless, "whatcha gonna do?!?!!?" as Hulk Hogan would say(Tip o the Mets Hat to Mrs. FF274).

Is there any way that our service, as a whole, can bolster, or adjust the do as little as possible, or only what's required attitude that is becoming more and more prevalent??

Discuss...

[FirNaTine 370]

Here's a bright idea. How about agencies out there stop dumbing down honorable and hazardous professions such as the Fire Service/Communications Agencies, just to reach some qoutas that the EEOC will be content with. Do ya think one day, we could actually get back to hiring those individuals who actually have an interest and show pride in their profession. I know one way to start and that is to raise the Standards, or to at least adopt Standards. The Emergency Service Field shouldn't be a career choice for everyone, but unfortunately it's become that. It seems anyone these days can put a sticker on their car and call themselves a Professional. It use to be and should still be, a calling. People complain about tradition, but to me this is a perfect example where the loss of tradition has greatly effected in a bad way, these professions. The unfortunate thing is not only does this adversely effect the different Emergency Service Agencies as a whole, but also the general public they protect.

[Mac8146 61]

Having read your previous post i do agree it is time that all concerned take interest in the job. As you have said there are many streets esp. in Da Bronx that get mispronounced by all, not just dispatchers. Maybe a list should be made up and given to newly assigned people to inform them of such. Marion and Marmion come to mind and many others as you have mentioned. Also knowing where your units are and who is actually closer to respond not just relying on the CAD to assign.

[JBE 328]

Double edged sword, those who can't cut it should be summarily shown the door, and then you have others who have the "playbook" and exploit every page. Square-rooters, hairbags, skells. That's where one of my biggest problems lies.

The work ethic I think has to be there before hand. And, if it's not instilled in people, you will contiue to get garbage. Here's the thing, and I've seen it in my experience. You don't have to have an interest in the job to be good at it. I think to me it's more about changing the $hitty attitudes people have.

[biglew 3]

JBE,

I believe the attitudes go part and parcel with the poor performance. I was a letter carrier and then a Postal Truck Driver in Da Bronx from 1984-1996. Over that period of time the "job" changed in many ways. The morale sunk when experienced workers were asked to pick up the slack for the not so motivated, just a job bunch.

Bottom line, no matter what the profession, you need to have pride, motivation, and the willingness to learn. Too many people come to work for a paycheck, yes it is compensation for your work, but it shouldnt be the reason you do it. Someone once told me your vocation should also be your avocation, a labor of love etc.

This country believes in a diverse workplace, which is a great thing, but doesnt always get you the most qualified applicant for a particular position. Every QUALIFIED applicant should have a chance to compete for any given job. But qualified is the key word. Passing up people with higher scores on civil service lists than others, is wrong in my opinion. If the low scorers want the job, they should prepare better for an exam, and score higher.

Of course there will be dissention in any workplace, when one is given preferential treatment over others. Its one of the reasons people dont care as much about their job. Its endemic to our workplace atmosphere.

The way the system is now, the best applicants dont always get the job, which will in turn lower the level of proficiency at that workplace, which will lower morale and give you the WTF attitude sooner or later. I doubt it will change anytime soon.

[FirNaTine 370]

If interested, check out the letter to the editor by D.C. Mannix of FDNY in the Jan.25th issue of The Chief. He speaks the truth and nothing but the truth with regards to the demise of today's Fire Service. He's right on the money with everything he says, whether people like it or not.

[JBE 328]

Read it, right on the money. The truth hurts sometimes.

[NJMedic 96]

Funny, we were talking about this today. When I first started in my department back in 1983 me and anyone else who started back then busted own own humps to do the best job possible. No one bitched, no one dimed people out for petty stuff. It was a tight ship.

Nowadays there does not seem to be any desire to do more then the minimal needed. Just enough to get by but no more.

Wish I had the magically answer.

Edited February 7, 2008 by NJMedic

[AFS1970 504]

Since this started out as a dispatch thread, I will continue the rant. First of all, let me start by saying that the poor job performance and bad attitudes are killing our profession, however I think they are condoned and in some cases encouraged by the uniform management of the various Police & Fire Departments we work for. Despite all the changes in communications over the years, all the new equipment which has brought with it required new skills, and despite the new training requirements, many of which require periodic refreshing, this is still seen by many as a job for someone who couldn't quite cut it in a real job. A good place for the wives & girlfrinends who just want something to do while the men are at work. As long as that is what departments are seeking, that is all they will get, period.

Over my almost 19 years as a dispatcher, I have heard several applicants or relatives of applicants express their lack of respect for the job they were applying for, here are some of my favorites:

I am only taking this job until I get on the police/fire department.

My sister just got divorced and has been out of the job market for a while, I figure she can do your job.

My kid didn't pass the agility so he needs a job, I guess he'll have to be a dispatcher.

I see you have ramps up there, my mom is in a wheelchair and she's a nice lady, can you get her an application?

I know allot of cops/firemen, I should be great at this job.

The latest one I've heard is:

I already put in my 20 and I need to retire to something less busy/stressful, so I took your test.

At least in my city, when they hire for the uniform jobs they put up posters, assign guys to recruiting, have an application window that lasts months. When they post the Dispatch job, the application window is usually less than 30 days, there is no active recruiting, and the only adds are the required ones in the legal notices section of the paper. If it weren't for members of forums like these (242 Steve & myself) who take it upon themselves to post the job info, the pool would be even smaller. One year they did make a recruitment video, they played it continupusly outside the welfare office and on late night public access. And people wonder why they get poor skills and attitudes.

OK, rant done for now.

[JBE 328]

It's a lack of respect because people don't know what we do. This is an easy job when you look at it at face value. The intricacies of the job are what make it difficult.

I'm just trying to figure out how we, as a whole, can improve the attitudes of those in our line of work.

[ny10570 745]

The sad truth is this is happening everywhere in every job title, from firefighter to loading dock worker to corporate lackey. Some blame it on the 'me' generation that has recently gained attention in the media. Some research points to a steady change in attitude thanks to our parents. Either way a lot of money is spent on trying to figure this out. If you can do it you'll be rich.

What just about everyone agree's with is that we're a reflection of our parents desires for themselves. After the Great Depression people were so greatful to have work that the employer came first. This wasn't fair and parents passed this message on to their children. With time unions came into vogue and helped balance out the power. This fostered a culture of I have a job to do and I am going to be compensated for it. Next Generation steps up and having your place in society isn't good enough. We are to step up above our meager means and succed in life. This means the job has to work for me or I'm leaving. Here's the best part, its only going to get worse. Unemployment is low and goverment assistance is high so...DILIGAF? IGM! There is no motivation to go the extra mile outside of peer pressure. Political correctness and white guilt has so hampered managements ability to punish the bottom of the barrel that the whole barrel is being poisoned. As long as the senior men/women keep up the pressure there's still a chance for enough people to do the right thing and save their job. I hope.

[Dondestro 9]

This might be a little different then everyone is talking about but one thing i heard over and over was the word pride.

- Being a vol. for 7 years i admit i don't know everything, i believe noone ever knows everything, but anyway i know enough to know that pride is a large part of the fire service. as you may hear alot in the paid end of" thats not in my job discription"....i hear alot of the "hold my paycheck" in the vol depts. i have a big problem with that. i feel that being part of a vol dept is more then a service to a community, its a honor. people think that saying hold my paycheck will get them outta any trouble or "wrong" they have done because they feel that we need them and they don't need us and that they are here for free. i look at my fire dept as my 2nd family and am honered and will do all i can to make my brothers and sisters of the fireservice jobs easier. if i do something wrong i take it like a man and try not to do it again.

in the end its all the same its people who don't take there job serious. they need a simple excuse that will get them outa anything they are to LAZY to take care or learn. The hardest part about it is vol. are so hard to come by now, someone can say that and get away with b/c we the comunity needs them.

Sorry my little vent...havea good one

Edited February 7, 2008 by Dondestro

[antiquefirelt 994]

This issue is truly becoming a plague in the U.S. in general. You have to look no further than the local fast food joints where in most cases the public would be sickened to see the cleanliness of the kitchen and the poor attitudes of the people working there. i believe that the management of any business needs to set the bar high from day one. Having supervisors that set the expectations and ensure the staff adheres to it, will make a difference.

In our FD we've seen a shift in newer hires with the "what's in it for me" attitude. The newer generation seems to expect that for every duty there is some sort of reward. Gone are the days that the fire service is a way of life, now its a steady job, but still just a job.

With regard to knowing the areas and names our new hires must pass a streets and hydrants test within 3 months. This means that they have to label a map of the district with all the street names and place the hydrants on it. Luckily for them there are only 223 hydrants to date. They must pass with a 100% or retake the test until they do. So far no one has failed to meet the requirements, and they then move on to tests for each apparatus (pumping and aerial use).

Dispatch in our area is also having trouble getting quality help, to the point they're scare to fire anyone for incompetanc because they don't have a line waiting to take the job. We too see dispatchers that can't pronounce simple names or have any cluse where firehouses are in relation to incidents. This has caused serious troubles at times.

[AFS1970 504]

On the subject of knowing streets is also knowing key buildings. We are lucky enough to have a CAD system, which contains the names of most buildings that are known by names. We also have fields for apartment number and floor number. By way of a little backround the apartment field used to be labled APT/SUITE and the floor field used to be labled FLR/BLDG, but is the last update those changed to APT & FLR. Aparently most of my coworkers think that is because all office buildings switched from suites to apartments and all complexes switched from building number to floor numbers even if they are all ground level.

Now Downtown Stamford, has more than it's share of office buildings, but so far only one really tall one. The 23 story tower has been the tallest building in Stamford since it was built (although that will change soon). Being that it is such a well know building, I fail to see how anyone can not recognize wither it's street address or landmark name (which is Landmark, oddly enough) yet yesterday I heard a medical call go out to that address and APARTMENT 15 for a male with back pain. First of all there are no apartments inthis building, so I would assume it to be a suite of offices, second of all no mention was made of the building name. Sadly we also get a slew of dispatches for health care facilities with these "Apartments" in stead of room numbers. To me this is nothing more than laziness. The box said APT so that's what I should call it. Don't bother learning anything about the city you work in.

[FirNaTine 370]

Maybe some solutions to think about would be:

1) Mandatory Military Service for at least 1yr. like other Countries demand

2) Parents should be allowed to be parents, and discipline their children their way, and not some therapist's way, like that of that hypocrite Dr. Phil.

3) Stop rewarding your children all the time when they do something right or good. It should be expected and instilled in them. Like the parents I know who bought their son a new BMW, because he got on a Career Dept.

4)Don't be afraid to discipline and demand respect from new recruits in the Academy, instead of being their friend, and letting those who don't cut it have a chance to resign. I know a few guys who left Westchester Depts. for FDNY and said the Academy Classes were like night and day. One was a Boot Camp and the other was a Club Med Vacation. Ask NRFD why they went back to training their own.

5)Stop hiring guys to reach some quota or out of nepotism. It's almost on the same realm of wanting a further, instead of a closer FD to respond on m/a, because your friend or family member is working there. Too Bad!

I know there's many others, so just add to them at your leasure. Gotta GO.

Edited February 7, 2008 by FirNaTine

[jcoppola 52]

In my 23 year involvement in the very proud, traditional fire service, I have seen one theme prove itself over and over again. When I started in the business, there was a respect for senior men both vol. & paid. You did what you were told like it or not and that was it. This is not the case anymore. Not to offend any of the younger guys, today's generation of firefighters want a reason why they should do what they were ordered to do. This is not a cut on the younger generations, they simply have a lot more education, both college and military, than members did in the past years and they want reasons for things they are asked to do. All this Q&A wastes time, time that could be used for doing, not talking. I come from a few generations in the fire service, so I hold that tradition close and I try to impart it to new members that I have dealings with in both "branches" of the fire service.

Moral: New people in the Fire Service should be seen and not heard unless they are asking a question about their job. Orders should not be questioned unless they are obviously unsafe. We need to groom some good senior people for our business otherwise we are doomed.

JVC

[AFS1970 504]

It is funny that you bring up seniority. I have noticed another aspect of this in the younger generation in addition to not really respecting other members seniority. Once a new guy has the littlest bit of seniority over other new guys, then it becomes important. I recently fielded a complaint from one probationary about another probationary, the nature of the complaint.....the junior of the two sat in the front seat of the pick up truck when going to remove a pump that had been placed earlier by another crew at a basement pump out. The senior of the two thought this was unacceptible because the front seat should go to the senior member on the crew.

I thought it was funny that the complaint came to me at all, because first and foremost this should have been handled amongst themselves, or at least with the non-probationary member who was driving the vehicle and was in effect in charge of the crew. But I also think that it is funny that for a generation that generally shuns authority attempting to prevent problems, they are very quick to come to authority to solve all their problems after they occur.

[ex-commish 490]

Moral: New people in the Fire Service should be seen and not heard unless they are asking a question about their job. Orders should not be questioned unless they are obviously unsafe. We need to groom some good senior people for our business otherwise we are doomed.

JVC

This is so true. I also found profound disrespect for senior members as well as authority. I have seen those who are new talk the talk yet they can't crawl yet but those shiny FDNY stickers on thier helmets or the " I fight what you fear" shirts has made them instant experts. Those who haven't finished FF1 yet but are "expert" enough to criticize a decision a chief made ( behind his back of course). Once again and not to sound repetitive but new members have three purposes..

1. Learn. You know nothing yet.

2. Keep your mouth shut. No one cares about your opinions. You know nothing yet.

3. Do as you are told. You know nothing yet.

If this offends anyone...oh well.

[Danger 160]

I obviously can't speak of dispatch or career departments, but this attitude in the volunteer service is simply depressing to me. Maybe it's just me, but I can't fathom this "Well, I'm not getting paid, so why should I lift a finger" attitude. And the "The officers should be doing all the work, why should I take initiative, I'm not in charge." Maybe my handful of years just hasn't jaded me yet. Or maybe I actually am a cut above the majority. I knew when I signed up I had work to do, and I knew I wasn't getting a check. Nobody wants to come to work details, nobody wants to wax the rig for a parade, no one wants to take classes. Everyone comes to the parties, the parades. Comes looking for their interior status the day FF1 ends. I really hate to rant like so, my statement hasn't been anything positive yet. But JBE, your pain is felt by many, the ones who try not because it's a job requirement, but because of personal interest and dedication.

[Future Fireman 4]

My 2 cents....

Probies got 2 eyes, and 2 ears. (and for gas alarms, 2 nostrils )

Here's the big equation: Listen twice as much as you talk + look at potential hazards twice as much as you're looking at your beer in the bar. That should equal a DAMN good firefighter.

Mike

[antiquefirelt 994]

So I take there are more than a few of us who are sickened by the whole "there are no wrong answers". It's amazing how many classes I've taken in the last few years that the instructors let students answer questions wrong and do not correct them.

We've adopted a motto that we teach as members of the "Church of Painful Truth". You may not like what you hear, but we will ensure you get the right answers and correct the wrong ones. None of this Well that is one way of doing i, but..." instead it's " no that way is not the best way, this is..." With as much bad info and practices out there, why let people cloud here minds with wishy washy answers, teach them the right way. I'd rather have hurt feelings than true injuries!

[ems731 0]

I can not speak on behalf of dispatchers or career departments, but as a volunteer I feel I have also seen a decline in volunteer's attitude and motivation. I have only been volunteering for about 4.5 years but in that time i feel that i have seen a very large drop in volunteers. I find it to be a real shame. I love volunteering as an EMT and take great pride in it and even considered going career but decided against it for my own personal reasons, but i just dont know what has changed peoples attitudes all of a sudden, maybe I just wasn't seeing it before. I just hope to start seeing a change for the better.