Canceling Responding Units?

[firemoose827 324]

Great insight, thanks!

Does the FD have some statutory authority to collect evidence from private property without a warrant and without permission of the property owner? General Municipal Law 204D states that the fire chief shall notify the appropriate investigative authority if a fire/explosion is suspicious or incendiary, it is silent about the collection of evidence leading me to wonder about the Constitutional issues and search warrant requirements if it is to be used in a criminal case?

I believe that the collection of evidence falls within the fire chiefs duty to determine the cause of all fires in his/her jurisdiction. If they find gas cans, or trailers, or matches and such than its considered criminal and they dont need warrants due to probable cause.

Otherwise, usually the formation of an organised Investigation Team with SOP's and By-Laws and affiliations with local law enforcement will cover any other collection of evidence such as pictures and samples. We have a county team called the "FIVES" Team. ( Fire Investigating Volunteers of Schoharie County, dont ask where the "E" fits in!LOL) They are made up of NYS Level 1 Fire Investigators from all over the county and respond to scenes whenever a "Code 20" is called to assist the OIC with determining the cause of the fire. Its not just for Arson cases, but for Officers who arent comfortable with Investigating the Cause of fires as well. I will see If I can get a copy of their SOP's. Im trying to join them but its difficult.

Hope that helped!

Moose

[Guest alsfirefighter]

How does an unknown medical happen?

In my realm it oftens occurs when the PD dispatcher or person on the desk hangs up on the caller instead of transferring them to my dispatcher. If they don't find out what the problem is other then "I need an ambulance," hang up and can't tell my dispatcher what it is when they call them direct, it often gets classified as an "unknown medical."

How would this apply to your 360 degree size-up of the structure? Couldnt the IC take a quick look inside to ascertain the size and location of fire?

Most of what they need to know they should find out by doing a 360 on the outside. I'm not sure what a "quick peak" in your idea is but you're not going to find out much more by sticking your head in the front door. This is where the ICS system comes into play. Each function is used as the identifier on the radio, this helps with accountability and also streamlines the amount of people each "supervisor" deals with. Information comes from the inside to the Operations officer who may also be the IC in some cases.

[firemoose827 324]

How does an unknown medical happen?

In my realm it oftens occurs when the PD dispatcher or person on the desk hangs up on the caller instead of transferring them to my dispatcher. If they don't find out what the problem is other then "I need an ambulance," hang up and can't tell my dispatcher what it is when they call them direct, it often gets classified as an "unknown medical."

Most of what they need to know they should find out by doing a 360 on the outside. I'm not sure what a "quick peak" in your idea is but you're not going to find out much more by sticking your head in the front door. This is where the ICS system comes into play. Each function is used as the identifier on the radio, this helps with accountability and also streamlines the amount of people each "supervisor" deals with. Information comes from the inside to the Operations officer who may also be the IC in some cases.

I mainly stated this for smaller calls, like smoke showing. Usually our chiefs will investigate the interior as part of their size-up if its not a severe IDLH atmosphere. A good example for us would be the "Chimney Fires" that start extending into the walls. They would go in with the TIC and find the exact location for when crews arrive. Or for the small fires in garbage cans and cooking pots and pans that could maybe be extinguished with a fire extinguisher by the Chief. Obviously we shouldnt expect a chief to go interior on a worker!! LOL They can barely get dressed in gear let alone a pack!

All you white coats...Im just kidding!!!

[jcoppola 52]

Years ago in Stamford, we had a big problem with agencies canceling other services. In some cases this turned into a big turf war, in others the agencies got called back because they were canceled impropperly. This lead to a couple of orders in the Dispatch center that basically do not allow one service to cancel another.

There has to be room to adjust to various situations however. The chief example I can think of is UNFOUNDED calls. Especially if multiple services are responding to a reported serious emergency, which turns out to be unfounded or worse maliciously false.

Motor Vehicle Colisions (with reported injuries) are a great one for both the pro's and cons of canceling other services. In Stamford these calls get a Police, Fire & EMS Response. Most reports of injuries are from passers by who thought it looked bad and people must therefore be injured. The Police get on scene, all involved say they are not injured, so Police Cancels EMS & FD. A while into the investigation someone suddenly decides they have back and neck pain, which usually coincides with the ticket they just received, so EMS gets called back. Apparently some people think they will not get charged if they go to the hospital. Of course I remember hearing of one where EMS arrived first, found no injuries, canceled FD due to no extrication and left once PD arrived on scene. PD called FD back because the car had struck a building and severed a gas line when it hit. So no agency or service is immune for such problems.

What is really needed is a little bit of cross training so that each service is aware of ALL the Duties that the other services are responsible for at scenes. Canceling the service becasue one of the tasks they do is not required is what leads to having to recall the service later in the incident. FD tends to think of PD as traffic control, but often ignores thier investigative role which is usually more important. EMS tends to think of FD as first responders or only for extrication and often ignores the haz mat or supression aspects, especially if it is ignition prevention and not supression that is needed. Everybody tends to think of EMS as a transport service, and ignores the fact that each potential patient is actually assessed and thsoe that refuse are RMA'd thus forgetting the triage part of the scene, especially if the incident does nto start out as a medical call.

The sad thing is that our egos will not allow this kind of awareness training, simply because we all like to think that we know it all in our respective fields and attending such classes would be admiting to a shortcomming, or worse, yielding land in the ongoing turf war.

May I make a suggestion?

Train with your local PD & EMS Agencies so everyone knows what each service is capable of. Let me give an example: 1 or 2 times per year, my dept. does a MVA/Rescue demonstration to the EMT class that is done through a joint effort between Norwalk Hospital and the Norwalk Community College. We make an effort to educate the new breeds of EMS responders what the FD is capable of. You'd be very suprised at how little these people know about our level of training and expertise. Some of them think we just wreck the car and then they go in a do the primary evaluations. Most departments I am familiar with bring a lot more to the table and these people should be made aware of that fact.

I also make an effort to discuss our capabilities with police officers in my city. For example, we go to calls where we have to "stand by" with PD until the scene is secure. That is a great time to show the cops around the rig and explain what we can do and what we expect of them as well as what they can expect from us. It builds teamwork. It is really easy to do as long as both parties have an open mind.

JVC

[helicopper 1,050]

I believe that the collection of evidence falls within the fire chiefs duty to determine the cause of all fires in his/her jurisdiction. If they find gas cans, or trailers, or matches and such than its considered criminal and they dont need warrants due to probable cause.

Otherwise, usually the formation of an organised Investigation Team with SOP's and By-Laws and affiliations with local law enforcement will cover any other collection of evidence such as pictures and samples. We have a county team called the "FIVES" Team. ( Fire Investigating Volunteers of Schoharie County, dont ask where the "E" fits in!LOL) They are made up of NYS Level 1 Fire Investigators from all over the county and respond to scenes whenever a "Code 20" is called to assist the OIC with determining the cause of the fire. Its not just for Arson cases, but for Officers who arent comfortable with Investigating the Cause of fires as well. I will see If I can get a copy of their SOP's. Im trying to join them but its difficult.

Hope that helped!

Moose

If the FD investigators collect the evidence and present it to the police for an criminal investigation I can understand it but if they summon the police to the scene and the police enter the scene without a warrant I foresee problems. The legal opinion that INIT915 posted specifically excluded criminal investigations from the "authorization for emergency services to enter private property" in that example leading me to believe that there may be issues with these situations.

Probable cause does not mean you can do something with out a warrant, it means you have grounds to obtain one.

4th Amendment - The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

This doesn't say "except for fire chiefs or arson investigators" so I don't know how you can get around the warrant requirement.

Is anyone familiar with case law about these situations?