NYS Dept. Of Labor Law: Where Are The Ropes?

[16fire5 693]

It appears to me that everyone missed the concept of of Risk Assessment (as required in ALL OSHA and PESH regs).

Whats the risk to ff's?

How many FF's have died in the last 20 years because they jumped, fell (due to no bailout system) or died at a window because of no way down? (My count is less than 15)

How many ff's have died from cardiac issues? (my count is over 750)

How many in responding (and no seat belt use)? (over 500)

Cancer...(unknown)

If we provide mask that dont get used when needed, seat belts that don't get used...

does a harness and bulky rope system that may never be used increase the risks? The extra weight contributing to cardiac stress? THe harness more likely to get a member entangled during a search?

A lot of people are upset that depts are not running out to get them harnesses, but is this the best way to protect our members. How many know that the gemtor or any harness made of nylon melt at 364 degrees, and could be damaged long before you ever need it? What about exposre to chemicals that are found at common incidents?

We looked at all of these issues a year before this law and experimented with a number of different "systems" and felt the best way to protect or members was a smaller, light and simple system.

We have been lucky to have not needed it yet, but I can count dozens of members who I know have had cardiac events on our job.

I'm sure a number of posters will not like what I've written, but again

Whats the real risk to ff's?

Exactly.

[FirNaTine 370]

Good post Bnechis. I'd love to see a study done on the reasons why guys had to bail out in the 1st place. I'm sure a good percentage is because of human error, dut to an individual(s) not remembering or just not carrying out the basics due to complacency or lack of interest. Sometimes we're our own worst enemy, who'd rather blame others then take responsibility for our careleess actions.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Excellent post Barry.

FirNaTine...funny crap bro. still love my t-shirt.

Jeff gives a very chilling and honest account of what happened to the FDNY brothers that day. Its difficult and I don't feel comfortable with discussing the rope and carabiner issue in that regard at this time out of respect for Jeff and the brothers who were severely injured that day and those who didn't go home.

[Bnechis 3,961]

From Drag Rescue Devise Concern:

"Thanks to the brother who shared this info and it is something that I've had a simliar incident with while running a student through mask confidence but they didn't get hung up on it badly it just deployed and stayed out. I will be putting this into my FF survival presentation and all other pertinent presentations to get it out there."

As I previously posted, one concern for a bail out system is it could cause a ff to become trapped. On this post they showed a ff getting trapped with his DRD, which is much smaller and partialy covered by SCBA most of the time, look at how bulky the bailout harnesses and rope packs are.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The Rope and Caribiner is a way of getting out sure. Safely ? probably not. Will it work? Hopefully.

"Safely?" ....This makes it sound like your considering a recreational rappeling drill. I've taught bailout classes for over 20 years (yep, long before NYS...I was taught by Lt. Jim Curran from FDNY R1 in 1986) and have always taught that if you are about to perform a bailout it means that a) your in deep trouble, you found a window, and c) you are planning on jumping (because you have no choise). At this point any system will do because you are going out that window (with or without a rope).

In the late 1990's a retiered USAF Col (who survived a crash but had massive burns) spoke at the NYC Burn Center Class (FDNY Randels Is.) and said when your burning you will jump, even if you know you will die. He even said you would jump from the top of the world trade center. I didn't believe him...then, and I don't think anyone else did either.

[Monty 35]

The rope and caribener should do most suburban departments fine. Is cost an issue definatly the FDNY system is very expensive and I myself am on my 3rd bag because the wear and tear. But more importantly I see the issue as training you buy these systems are you going to train on them enough? I know I have iniated weekly training (as opposed to bi-montly) in my volunteer department and it's not extremely popular. And in my opinion the time could be spent on something much more important like training to avoid these situations. Training in recognizing conditions and risk management and others. Should we now equip all members with spare air? More firefighters die from asphixiation.

1. Train on the basics a lot.

2. Keep oriented.

3. Only go above the fire without a line for a known life hazard. I know many of you will disagree with me on this but unless you have a real experienced crew this is probably the right way to go.

4. Consider using VES when going above then the ladder is there for you.

If you can't get your members to comply with facial hair requirements how will you get them to train enough?

Unfortunately - you hit the nail on the head. Some departments, sometimes have monthly training. Oh, sorry, we get a one page flyer to distribute monthly and count that as training.

As Bnechis mentions, there's the risk analysis - unfortunately, being applied in the reverse here. We've done it this way for XX years without getting hurt so why do we need seatbelts, why do we need a good seal, why do we need air when we're inside (overhauling), why do we need hazmat training, why do we need BBP training ........

Sorry - been a bad week

[Guest FFNick]

This is from an older thread:

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopi...amp;#entry98905

This isn't my opinion, just a point of information.

[SteveOFD 176]

Unfortunately - you hit the nail on the head. Some departments, sometimes have monthly training. Oh, sorry, we get a one page flyer to distribute monthly and count that as training.

As Bnechis mentions, there's the risk analysis - unfortunately, being applied in the reverse here. We've done it this way for XX years without getting hurt so why do we need seatbelts, why do we need a good seal, why do we need air when we're inside (overhauling), why do we need hazmat training, why do we need BBP training ........

IMO if the OIC has any integrity he would only count real training as "training".

[ny10570 745]

Bnechis, you're spot on that we are killing ourselves many other ways much more efficiently but we have seatbelts in all fire apparatus, we have SCBA to protect us from the environments in which we operate, and we know how to protect our health. The real issue is how we choose to not protect ourselves. But that shouldn't excuse the job from providing the appropriate equipment.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Bnechis, you're spot on that we are killing ourselves many other ways much more efficiently but we have seatbelts in all fire apparatus, we have SCBA to protect us from the environments in which we operate, and we know how to protect our health. The real issue is how we choose to not protect ourselves. But that shouldn't excuse the job from providing the appropriate equipment.

I'm not excusing the job, my point was what is the best way to provided it. They NY Times did an article on the FDNY system, where they said many of the members (particularly those over 40y/o) felt it limited their movements and made it more likely to being trapped.

My dept. evaluated this over a year before the law came out and did issue equipment. A lot of members here seem to belive that they are intitiled to the FDNY system because its what they believe is the best (I'm not saying it is not). The law makes sense, evaluate your risk and determine what is needed. Does a dept. upstate, where the tallest structure is a "double wide" with an additional cinder block under it need ropes? I was called by a village manager asking how to respond to the FD's request for $500 per member for all members, including exterior only members and "life" members who live in nursing homes.

We evaluated a harness system and felt it was great, easy to deal with, jump out the window and your in good shape..etc. Then one member got hooked exiting the rig on a call (he didn't know he was hooked) and after going 50' stopped short because he came to the end of the rope and now he was done.

My bigger point was that just by issuing equipment wont help if FF's will not use it. I know depts that have issued harness/ropes and it sits in a locker or car. I've also heard a few cases both with the old & the new FDNY systems, where members in trouble did not use them because they "forgot" they had them.

Final issue; Is it my perception or is it that FDNY & everyone in the NY metro area sees this as such a major issue, but none of the other major cities & metro areas do?

If we all need the FDNY system, what about Chicago, Boston, Dallas, LA...etc. What do they do ?

How about other nations: what does London, Paris, etc. do?

[Guest FFNick]

For me, I think that:

Being so close to a Department where this was an issue (FDNY)

Being on a job where we had 5 guys bail out an upper floor window

Being near another department where 2 members were moderately burned because they were trapped on an upper floor,

I'd say, yeah, for me, it's a major issue. My department has its own issues with bail out ropes. We also have a issues with other things, it doesn't make bail outs THE priority, but it is a priority.

I don't work in other metropolitan cities, so I do not know if they perceive this as an issue.

Edited February 9, 2008 by FFNick

[16fire5 693]

First off I hope no one in this thread takes anything in here personally because if you posting here (instead of about a wet down or a parade) you obviously have a strong interest in safety and your profession. That being said we all realize the impetus for this came from an incident the FDNY experienced. In the City of New York we do things differently than most places, and there are many reasons for that. We have the best manning out there and I’m thankful for that. One thing we do and stress from the moment you enter the Fire Academy is the responsibilities of the Roof Firefighter and his responsibility to get the Life Saving Rope (LSR) to the roof. We allow nothing and I mean nothing to deter him from his/her said duty and position. I remember being told that if I chose not to bring my mask to the roof that was about myself but not bringing the rope I was making a decision for all the brothers on scene.

Since the FDNY chose to equip it’s members with PSS many others demand the same equipment. Do they demand a LSR to the roof at all multiple dwelling fires? Do they have a quick evolution to rescue a trapped firefighter or civilian? In NY we in my opinion place a higher priority on the LSR and its importance than the PSS. Also the LSR has saved more firefighters and civilians than the PSS ever will. I don't see anyone call for legislation mandating this.

[Bnechis 3,961]

First off I hope no one in this thread takes anything in here personally because if you posting here (instead of about a wet down or a parade) you obviously have a strong interest in safety and your profession. That being said we all realize the impetus for this came from an incident the FDNY experienced. In the City of New York we do things differently than most places, and there are many reasons for that. We have the best manning out there and I’m thankful for that. One thing we do and stress from the moment you enter the Fire Academy is the responsibilities of the Roof Firefighter and his responsibility to get the Life Saving Rope (LSR) to the roof. We allow nothing and I mean nothing to deter him from his/her said duty and position. I remember being told that if I chose not to bring my mask to the roof that was about myself but not bringing the rope I was making a decision for all the brothers on scene.

Since the FDNY chose to equip it’s members with PSS many others demand the same equipment. Do they demand a LSR to the roof at all multiple dwelling fires? Do they have a quick evolution to rescue a trapped firefighter or civilian? In NY we in my opinion place a higher priority on the LSR and its importance than the PSS. Also the LSR has saved more firefighters and civilians than the PSS ever will. I don't see anyone call for legislation mandating this.

Excellent point.

NYS DOL says that a LSR would meet the standards, if its in place (and not left in a compartment on the rig).

We've had them on all trucks for at least a doz years. Its SOP to bring it to the roof.

Big problem for many depts. is they dont consider the roof a major priority, often because they have limited manpower.

[hudson144 150]

Since the start of this post alot of valid points have been raised, the question still might be this: why are some depts. not complying to the rules? Do they care? Are the members not worrying about their own safety? Is the liabilty factor even considered. Are the leaders of the Depts. that are not complying even aware of the laws in place? Are the safety committees or unions putting pressure on the Chiefs who are simply turning their heads the other way? Alot more can be said here. When someone gets hurt or killed they will be in the same position as FDNY with pending lawsuits etc. There is no excuse! As Capt Benz stated "Its a part of your PPE"!!!!!!!

[FirNaTine 370]

First off I hope no one in this thread takes anything in here personally because if you posting here (instead of about a wet down or a parade) you obviously have a strong interest in safety and your profession. That being said we all realize the impetus for this came from an incident the FDNY experienced. In the City of New York we do things differently than most places, and there are many reasons for that. We have the best manning out there and I’m thankful for that. One thing we do and stress from the moment you enter the Fire Academy is the responsibilities of the Roof Firefighter and his responsibility to get the Life Saving Rope (LSR) to the roof. We allow nothing and I mean nothing to deter him from his/her said duty and position. I remember being told that if I chose not to bring my mask to the roof that was about myself but not bringing the rope I was making a decision for all the brothers on scene.

Since the FDNY chose to equip it’s members with PSS many others demand the same equipment. Do they demand a LSR to the roof at all multiple dwelling fires? Do they have a quick evolution to rescue a trapped firefighter or civilian? In NY we in my opinion place a higher priority on the LSR and its importance than the PSS. Also the LSR has saved more firefighters and civilians than the PSS ever will. I don't see anyone call for legislation mandating this.

Your 100% right. I just wish our guys even thought of bringing the (LSR) to the roof, that's even if they remember to get up there without being told. Hell they complain about having to take two tools. Maybe if we concerned ourselves more with making sure the Basics were completed quickly and efficiently at every Job, there'd be less chance of guys having to bail in the first place. Just a thought.