Lack of Training for EMS?

[JJB531 652]

This question goes out to career and volunteer EMS providers and is simply one out of curiousity. Besides the basic education that is currently available for EMS providers, which includes the EMT-B, I, and P programs, along with ACLS and PALS for advanced providers, do you think that EMS providers could benefit from any other type of additional training, or do you feel that there is an overall lack of available training for EMS providers?

I ask this question for a few reasons. The first is because as I research other larger EMS agencies across the country, I see that EMS providers are much better trained and prepared than a lot of local providers. Additional training includes specialized training in Hazardous Materials, Tactical Medicine, Basic Rope/Confined Space Rescue (more for accessing patients in difficult situations and not necessarily acting as a full technical rescue team), Water/Dive Rescue as either a medical support function or as a fully integrated member of a water/dive rescue unit.

The second reason I ask this question is because when I look at the training bulletins on the DES training page (Westchester County), I always see a number of courses offered for firefighters. Whether it's FF1, Rescue Technician, AVET, HazMat Tech, etc. etc. But when you look at the training for EMS, the topics are basically simple CME's on how to write PCR's or how to make proper notifications for cases of suspected child abuse. As I EMS provider, I have contacted DES numerous times to register for courses, specifically Hazmat Tech and Rescue Technician. I was told that these courses were only for firefighters, and I had to either be affiliated with an FD or, similiar to what happened with the HazMat Tech course, I was bumped off the list because FF's get preference to the spots. Any training I've wanted or received I've had to go to a private training organization (Dive Rescue Int'l, Lifesaving Resources, START Rescue) and pay out of pocket to receive training and knowledge that I personally feel would be beneficial for an EMS provider to possess.

Just curious on what people's views are and what, if any, training you would like to see made available to EMS providers in addition to what's already being offered.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Great topic JJB. I have been interested in taking a Rope Rescue class for sometime now. I would LOVE to take a BASIC COURSE in ROPE RESCUE but shouldn't have to pay out of my pocket for it. If you are affliliated with an FD in WEST and take a class it is PAID for through the DEPT right? Are these classes opened up to anyone? You can sign up but might get bumped by a FF? DES is the DEPT OF EMERGENCY SERVICES isn't it? Well PD and EMS fits into that category so all classes should be opened up to everyone.

[Goose 188]

I've more or less given up on DES as a viable training center for EMS. 95+% of all their courses are Fire related and require some fire prerequisite. I find that my employer, on top of mandatory monthly training, offers and informs me of class after class after class. CMEs, lectures, courses, etc.

[ems731 0]

I was just on the Westchester DES website and it really only showed online courses for EMS. However it did make mention that if you join Westchester Emergency Volunteer Reserves (WEVR) that they would provide you with free training in many different areas. I just don't understand why they can't make this training and other training available to EMS providers because chances are we are gonna get dispatched to calls where this training could be useful.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This question goes out to career and volunteer EMS providers and is simply one out of curiousity. Besides the basic education that is currently available for EMS providers, which includes the EMT-B, I, and P programs, along with ACLS and PALS for advanced providers, do you think that EMS providers could benefit from any other type of additional training, or do you feel that there is an overall lack of available training for EMS providers?

EMS providers and their patients would clearly benefit. The lack of available training is inpart due to a major lack of interest on the part of EMS in general.

I ask this question for a few reasons. The first is because as I research other larger EMS agencies across the country, I see that EMS providers are much better trained and prepared than a lot of local providers. Additional training includes specialized training in Hazardous Materials, Tactical Medicine, Basic Rope/Confined Space Rescue (more for accessing patients in difficult situations and not necessarily acting as a full technical rescue team), Water/Dive Rescue as either a medical support function or as a fully integrated member of a water/dive rescue unit.

When the county set up the the mass decon program, we requested all EMS agencies send as many members as possible, we ran about 10 classes andwith the exceptionof FD EMS or membersof FD's we had almost no participation. Dozens of WMD awarness courses for EMS were offered and almost all cancelled when no one showed up.

Over the last 20 years I've run 100's of classes and Ifindonly a small % of EMS providers are everinterested.

The second reason I ask this question is because when I look at the training bulletins on the DES training page (Westchester County), I always see a number of courses offered for firefighters. Whether it's FF1, Rescue Technician, AVET, HazMat Tech, etc. etc. But when you look at the training for EMS, the topics are basically simple CME's on how to write PCR's or how to make proper notifications for cases of suspected child abuse. As I EMS provider, I have contacted DES numerous times to register for courses, specifically Hazmat Tech and Rescue Technician. I was told that these courses were only for firefighters, and I had to either be affiliated with an FD or, similiar to what happened with the HazMat Tech course, I was bumped off the list because FF's get preference to the spots.

That is because the classes are run by OFPC not DES (they are just the host). Many of the classes require that you are insured by your agency and all FD's are mandated by law to do that.

Any training I've wanted or received I've had to go to a private training organization (Dive Rescue Int'l, Lifesaving Resources, START Rescue) and pay out of pocket to receive training and knowledge that I personally feel would be beneficial for an EMS provider to possess.

Go back about 10 years and NYS did not provide rescue training (except vehicle) and if you wanted it you had to go private, that was for FD and EMS. For 18 years I ran classes all over the region (Westchester, Rockland, Dutchass, Orange and in NJ)and very few EMS providers got involved. I always felt it was because of $$$, but since I've also taught many freebies I don't think its true.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Great topic JJB. I have been interested in taking a Rope Rescue class for sometime now. I would LOVE to take a BASIC COURSE in ROPE RESCUE but shouldn't have to pay out of my pocket for it. If you are affliliated with an FD in WEST and take a class it is PAID for through the DEPT right? Are these classes opened up to anyone? You can sign up but might get bumped by a FF? DES is the DEPT OF EMERGENCY SERVICES isn't it? Well PD and EMS fits into that category so all classes should be opened up to everyone.

Its paid for by NYS OFPC (Office of Fire Prevention & Control)not DES.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

This is an excellent topic and one that JJB and myself have discussed time and time again when we've worked together and even have gotten to deliver some CME lectures together.

Oneeye...as BNechis said the technical rescue programs are delivered by NYS OFPC...Westchester is only the host. I understand your frustration as there are courses through TOA I would like to take being I am a tac medic, that operates with a team but cannot because I am not a "sworn member." Its tough when the sandbox gets in the way of education.

Some of the reasons as to why they aren't available comes down to pre requisite requirements as many are tiered levels of skill with each one having a brief review only of critical skills from the prior course. Basic knots are taught in Firefighter 1 and if you aren't proficient with the basics it will be difficult to keep up or take time from the course to have to teach them and then go on to some of the advanced knots that revolve off the basics ones.

I would like to see an overhaul and more done with EMS training as well. There are ways to take the same basic CME lectures we've all heard time and time again and make them more interesting. The question is do your agencies want them...do you want them, etc.

[bob803 1]

I didn't realize you need fire course pre reques for rope rescue courses. I would double check since ther is basic intermediate and advance courses. Maybe they are limited to fire dept personnel only.......

[JJB531 652]

Dozens of WMD awarness courses for EMS were offered and almost all cancelled when no one showed up.

BNechis... I understand your responses to my post and appreciate your input, but my problem is that many courses available for EMS are just that... awareness level courses. I'm not attempting to downplay the importance of awareness level courses, because I feel many should be nearly mandated for EMS providers (Hazmat, WMD, etc.). But there's only so many times I can sit in a classroom and listen to someone talk about nerve agents or how to use the Emergency Response Guidebook. I think an old native american proverb says it best... "Tell me and I'll forget, show me and I may not remember, involve me and I'll understand". I was addressing more the lack of "useful" hands on training that I believe a lot of emergency responders outside of the Fire Service may be interested in taking part in.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I would double check since ther is basic intermediate and advance courses

Intermediate and advanced for the most part no longer exist as the state revamped their rope rescue series.

It actually all starts out with Rescue Technician Basic, which the prerequisites to take this course are:

Firefighter 1; Basic Firefighter or FF Essentials with Confined Space Awareness & Safety. As an RTB instructor, I have privately utilized this curriculum for some EMS agencies who are involved with teams or have special circumstances where the knowledge comes in handy and is used fairly often with the movement of patients on low angle terrains.

Then there is Rope Rescue Operations Level, then Rope Rescue Technician I and II which every increase in the course requires the on prior.

Do I feel that this is something that EMS personnel should also be involved with and have an understanding...yes. If cases of severe injury or illness requiring some form of technical extrication or rescue, having the highest trained medical provider able to make patient contact and stabilize the patient is an important option.

I totally agree with JJB. I still can't believe out of all the EMS providers out there, hardly anyone is chiming in with ideas of training they would like to see or improvements in CME presentations.

[helicopper 1,050]

APATHY and COMPLACENCY = someone else will do that highly involved technical rescue, "I'm just a volunteer". I've heard that "I'm a volunteer" line many times in my career and it always centered around someone trying to justify why they're not as well trained as they could/should be.

EMS has and always will be the bastard step child of emergency services. It is treated by most munipalities with benign neglect. EMS never gets the type of funding to obtain specialized training or pay people to go it and with so many EMS services operating solely on reimbursements from insurance companies, they're lucky to be able to fuel the ambulance.

Then there is the assertion that this function is a FIRE function and that function is a POLICE function so police and fire monopolize those functions regardless of the fact that they may be focused on extricating an injured person from an environment - where medical treatment is clearly indicated. In other parts of the country, the medic is trained to go in with police/fire and do their job so why not here? As ALS said, cause of all the sandboxes we have to worry about.

It sucks and shouldn't be this way but I don't think we're going to see any change - at least not in our lifetimes!

[JJB531 652]

Do I feel that this is something that EMS personnel should also be involved with and have an understanding...yes. If cases of severe injury or illness requiring some form of technical extrication or rescue, having the highest trained medical provider able to make patient contact and stabilize the patient is an important option.

This is one of my points ALS, and well said. If I respond to a confined space job, I want to have the training and the knowledge on how to enter that confined space, conduct a patient assessment, and begin whatever treatment I feasibly can. If I respond to some form of a rope rescue, whether it's a rollover down a steep embankment or an individual having an MI up in a water tower, I want to be able to access that patient and begin providing treatment. I don't think it's fair to the patient to have to wait until the technical rescue is completed before the patient is afforded advanced life support medical care. It's like Chris192 stated, and he hit the nail on the head, with any form of technical rescue, there is always a patient involved. A patient whom we as medical providers are responsible for. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not there to steal an FD's glory and take over a rescue. I want to make sure I'm appropriately trained and equipped to safely access a patient and begin to provide medical care while FD or whoever conducts the rescue.

I totally agree with JJB. I still can't believe out of all the EMS providers out there, hardly anyone is chiming in with ideas of training they would like to see or improvements in CME presentations.

I'm very suprised myself.... like Chris192 said.... complacency.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Its paid for by NYS OFPC (Office of Fire Prevention & Control)not DES.

Ok so it is paid for by OFPC. Does that mean I have to be a FF to take the course? The thing is, how do we know who is CERTIFIED in ROPE RESCUE? If you take one of JJB's cases, whether it be MI in the WATER TOWER or MVA over the embankment, and the FD shows up are they going to be qualified? If not does a QUALIFIED TEAM get paged out like MUTUAL AID? PT CARE is now going to decline and that is what we don't want.

[Guest]

I agree with Oneyedmic. I had to pay out of pocket for my EMT class because my fire deptartment refused to foot the bill. Why should I have to pay out of pocket to cross train? I love when we are told time after time at department meeting to train as much as possible but when it actually comes time for training suddenly theres no support or funding.

Edited January 25, 2008 by Smiley

[Guest alsfirefighter]

OneEye...the best bet is contact OFPC at the Albany office and get it straight from them. The only hurdle I would see is the pre-requisite to get into Rescue Tech Basic, now it would be Firefighter I or the prior equivalents. I can say I had LEO's in my Intermediate RR that I did back in the late 90's, but they were active within their municipalities multi-agency team. I know that NYTOA also offers rappelling courses, but I also realize that they are more on a tactical response level. As far as your question...that can only be answered by the AHJ. Which by default rescue is generally considered handled by the FD. Whether they are qualified or not unfortunately is something that is a decision that needs to be made by the dispatched agency. Appropriate M/A can only come if requested. But either way you're still my boy.

I agree with Oneyedmic. I had to pay out of pocket for my EMT class because my fire deptartment refused to foot the bill. Why should I have to pay out of pocket to cross train? I love when we are told time after time at department meeting to train as much as possible but when it actually comes time for training suddenly theres no support or funding.

Smiley, that's a department issue not a state emergency services discipline issue, but your not the only one who's in that boat, the departments I work for/am a member of only have so much of a budget for training costs. If your agency is at least a BLSFR agency you don't have to pay for EMT training. I would've suggested if possible to work with the EMS agency that covers your area to see if they would of been gracious enough to sign the appropriate documentation. It takes very little to become a BLSFR agency and in fact you don't have to actively do it, just have the appropriate paperwork in order and your agency certification from DOH and it allows members to take EMT via state funding and to be able to carry appropriate equipment on apparatus.

[Guest]

I was just taking a quick look at the OFPC catalog for 2008 and Rescue tech has NO Prerequisites. The course is open to all personal. If Oneeye were to take the course at the fire academy it would cost him or his jurisdiction $225. $25 for registration and $200 for room and food. For the amount of s*** depratments waste their money on its a real shame that they cant scrap together $225 for training.

Edited January 25, 2008 by Smiley

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm not sure as to why it doesn't list the pre-req under the section you looked at, but I'm not pulling any legs here..I'm a RTB instructor. While it doesn't list any pre-requisites in one section, under the training section of OFPC's website, you can click on outreach programs, then technical rescue, you will find the following. Again as I stated earlier there are cases where LEO's have taken the course, but before anyone outside of the fire service looks into it, make sure your agency has the appropriate insurance to cover you in the event of injury or death!

This is the description of RTB directly from OFPC website...which mimics the information in the student manual, instructor manual and on a powerpoint slide in my presentation.

01-04-0032 Rescue Technician - Basic

Provides a base from which to prepare students for a wide variety of possible rescue operations. Based on objectives from National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 1006 - Rescue Technician, Chapter 3, this course includes an overview in areas of specialized rescue, search, technical rescue management, risks and priorities; use of ropes, knots, and rope systems in a low angle environment, and establishment of landing zones for helicopter operations. Demonstrations, practice sessions and testing for certification are included.

Designed For: All emergency response personnel

Course Length: 24 hours

Prerequisite(s): Firefighter I (01-05-0019), Basic Firefighter (01-05-0006), or Firefighting Essentials (01-05-0023)

NYS Certification Level: Firefighter and Rescue Technician Series

[Guest alsfirefighter]

454 VIEWS...only around 16 Posts!!! Lets go gang...how can EMS education be improved!!! What would you like to see being done, being delivered by your agencies?!? This is the profession you are involved in...get involved in the conversation! Edited January 25, 2008 by alsfirefighter

[Bnechis 3,961]

If I respond to a confined space job, I want to have the training and the knowledge on how to enter that confined space, conduct a patient assessment, and begin whatever treatment I feasibly can. If I respond to some form of a rope rescue, whether it's a rollover down a steep embankment or an individual having an MI up in a water tower, I want to be able to access that patient and begin providing treatment.

If you respond to a CSR do you have multi gas detectors, fullbody harnesses, extraction gear (for yourself), SAR and a certified attendant, if not you can have all the training in the world, you still cant go in.

Even if you have the training and equipment to do rope rescue, water towers are a specialty and having been up on about 25 of them I can tell you that no rope rescue classes I'm aware of teach water towers, unless its intended to teach it.

The first time you climb an exterior water tower ladder and find it climbs differently than any other ladder, because its almost vertical, then after climbing 16 or 18 stories, the ladder tips backwards (beyond 90 degrees) for the last 20 feet and when you get to the top you find the opening is narrower than you are and you have to hold yourself sideways to get on. And 1/2 the time the local FD, EMS PD or DPW has installed an antenna in the opening (because they could not get past this point. Now consider that this is a confined space incident, with a worker inside the tank, you need to get all the CSR gear up, to lower the crew inside (always lash the tripod to the top of the water tower).

The MI patient better hope the rope rescue team understands water tower rescue.

About 20 years ago a worker fell of a water tower in central tx. was left hanging in a safety harness. Local FD responded and there new rescue team rappeled down to "save" him. 2 hours later atech rescue team showed up to rescue the victim and the trapped local ff's. they had lost circulation in their legs after being unable to perform the rescue or self rescue.

I don't think it's fair to the patient to have to wait until the technical rescue is completed before the patient is afforded advanced life support medical care. It's like Chris192 stated, and he hit the nail on the head, with any form of technical rescue, there is always a patient involved. A patient whom we as medical providers are responsible for. As far as I'm concerned,

Agreed, That was one of the reasons that NR started its EMT training in the 1970's

[JJB531 652]

If you respond to a CSR do you have multi gas detectors, fullbody harnesses, extraction gear (for yourself), SAR and a certified attendant, if not you can have all the training in the world, you still cant go in.

Even if you have the training and equipment to do rope rescue, water towers are a specialty and having been up on about 25 of them I can tell you that no rope rescue classes I'm aware of teach water towers, unless its intended to teach it.

I am fully aware that such incidents require the appropriate amount of properly trained manpower and equipment... Maybe I didn't clearly explain myself as I was merely trying to use them as examples. I didn't know we were knit-picking here, so please let me know if you need any futher clarification. Perhaps this example will provide you with a better understanding of what I was attempting to relate...

Let's take the City of Yonkers as an example. I know that the Yonkers Fire Department's Rescue company is properly trained, equipped, and more than capable when it comes to a CSR. But are any Empress Paramedics currently trained to work alongside the Fire Departments Rescue Company, so in the event of a CSR, they can put an appropriately trained and equipped paramedic in there to evaluate the patient and begin treatment? As I stated in my previous post that the only function of the EMS provider would be patient access and care, not one of executing a technical rescue. Executing a technical rescue (i.e. setting up rope systems or air monitoring/sampling), is the responsibility of those who are trained to do so (which is for the most part FD's in this area).

Edited January 26, 2008 by JJB531

[Bnechis 3,961]

Let's take the City of Yonkers as an example. I know that the Yonkers Fire Department's Rescue company is properly trained, equipped, and more than capable when it comes to a CSR. But are any Empress Paramedics currently trained to work alongside the Fire Departments Rescue Company, so in the event of a CSR, they can put an appropriately trained and equipped paramedic in there to evaluate the patient and begin treatment? As I stated in my previous post that the only function of the EMS provider would be patient access and care, not one of executing a technical rescue. Executing a technical rescue (i.e. setting up rope systems or air monitoring/sampling), is the responsibility of those who are trained to do so (which is for the most part FD's in this area).

Since 90% of confined space incidents include a hazardous atmosphere, the proper patient assesment is positive pressure scba or sar and rapid removal. In most cases, it is almost imposible to do any real pt care in a confined space. YFD has practiced CS immobilization and removal, while providing positive presure breathing air in both verticl and horizontal spaces and that should more than suffice.

[AFS1970 504]

OK, now my perspective is as a Firefighter who is also an EMT, and I only use my EMT for First Responder call with the FD, but I do think there is another factor with EMS training and how it differs from FD training.

Think about this, once you get Firefighter I, there is no recertification requirement. Yes there are certain other classes we need to recert on, but as far as basic firefighting we are left on our own to develop and deliver ongoing trianing. In most States there is a State Academy that develops and delivers specialized courses. But when we think of ongoing training at the basic and intermediate level this is almost always inhouse training, which I am not at all against.

Within EMS, there are recertification requirements, and at some levels CME requirements. What I think happens here is that agencies get all caught up in the mandatory training, and a few advanced classes (ACLS, PTLS, ect.) that there is no real initiative to work on much else at the department or regional level. So there is noone working on good solid on going hands on training, because there is so much to lecture about in EMS.

Usually if someone does come up with a class they start a training company to provide it and charge a fee. While I am not against anyone making money, we really need to sit down some day and decide to stop screwing each other with high priced training that forces departments to limit how many can attend, if they let any at all. Look at what it costs to go to any of the national conferences, now try to do that out of pocket or send more that a couple of members there.

Another factor is since EMS is not really it's own agency, it is usually under the State Dept. of Health, they are very oriented towards classroom lectures, since they also train other healthcare providers. They are really not as well suited as a fire academy is to provide real world hands on training. And fire academies are by nature fire oriented, so any EMS classes they hold are an aside to the real business of fire training.

[ex-commish 490]

I agree with Oneyedmic. I had to pay out of pocket for my EMT class because my fire deptartment refused to foot the bill. Why should I have to pay out of pocket to cross train? I love when we are told time after time at department meeting to train as much as possible but when it actually comes time for training suddenly theres no support or funding.

Hearing this really makes my blood boil. There always seems to be money for parades, parties, dinners, etc but to allow people to advance in thier skills and perhaps make a better department money seems to be an issue.

[JJB531 652]

Since 90% of confined space incidents include a hazardous atmosphere, the proper patient assesment is positive pressure scba or sar and rapid removal. In most cases, it is almost imposible to do any real pt care in a confined space. YFD has practiced CS immobilization and removal, while providing positive presure breathing air in both verticl and horizontal spaces and that should more than suffice.

What is rapid removal is not possible? What if you have access to an arm to initiate IV fluids? What if you want a paramedic to make a determination if this a rescue or a recovery? It's almost impossible to do any real patient care, but not totally impossible, especially depending on the size of the confined space.

I can see we are still knit-picking here and not taking what I'm saying for face value, so I will once again use yet another example for you to try to rip apart...

Car goes over a guardrail down an steep embankment. Person is pinned in the vehicle, and part of the extrication process involves the use of ropes, rappelling down to the victim's vehicle, and a mechanical advantage system to raise the victim up the slope. The way things are now, your ALS unit will have to stand up there by the guardrail and wait for the patient to come to them. How about properly training EMS providers so they can safely and appropriately access the patient along with FD so they can begin patient care while FD performs the extrication?

[Guest paramedico987]

I find more that it's not a lack of available training, it's that I can't cough up the moolah to take the course.

A few months ago there was a tactical class which I was quite interested in taking, but it was around $750. I just can't justify making that kind of investment if there's no return [i.e. I don't get paid more for having the skill set].

[Bnechis 3,961]

What is rapid removal is not possible? What if you have access to an arm to initiate IV fluids? What if you want a paramedic to make a determination if this a rescue or a recovery? It's almost impossible to do any real patient care, but not totally impossible, especially depending on the size of the confined space.

It may not be, but in my experience most spaces would not allow for ALS often due to extreme contamination, limited space and other hazards. rescue vs. recovery...If an EMT (even a ff EMT) can not tell if the victim is breathing or not, maybe the training needs should be on basic EMT skills. And in most cases Rescue vs. recovery determinations are based on space conditions not patient conditions...i.e. the person went in to the xylen tank and has not moved in 20 min. if the IDLH level is deadly in 3 minutes, the IC would determine it to be a recovery.

I have been in spaces that were over 500' in diameter that still were confined spaces and you would not be able to do patient care because of conditions. Size of the space is only one issue.

I can see we are still knit-picking here and not taking what I'm saying for face value, so I will once again use yet another example for you to try to rip apart...

You dont want knit picking but then you keep giving examples. I understand your intent, I spent many years trying to convince EMS and fire agencies to train for this without sucsess. Took almost 15 years to convince NYS that rescue training was even needed. While EMS is critical to the patient during the rescue, EMS still does not take main aspects of EMS training serious. MCI & Triage training, rescue scene safety, decon training, etc.

Car goes over a guardrail down an steep embankment. Person is pinned in the vehicle, and part of the extrication process involves the use of ropes, rappelling down to the victim's vehicle, and a mechanical advantage system to raise the victim up the slope. The way things are now, your ALS unit will have to stand up there by the guardrail and wait for the patient to come to them. How about properly training EMS providers so they can safely and appropriately access the patient along with FD so they can begin patient care while FD performs the extrication?

Very easy, if we need them. Put them in a harness and lower them down. The only skill they need is walking. To teach low angle (lowering, MA & packaging) skills takes about 12-16 hours.

Another great skill is how to lower a patient from upper floors down an interior stairs. 24 story tower, elevators out, 300# MI patient day crew is a 65y/o "driver" and two 19 y/o EMT's who combined weigh about 200 Ibs. This crew was able to lower the pt. 24 floors in 12 min. (including set up time)....no carry down. The hardest part was trying to keep up with them with my VHS Recorder.

[JJB531 652]

Very easy, if we need them. Put them in a harness and lower them down. The only skill they need is walking. To teach low angle (lowering, MA & packaging) skills takes about 12-16 hours.

Sounds very easy, but now you are basically putting an EMS provider on the spot to operate in an environment they may not be familiar with, with equipment they're not familiar with, even if the only skill they need is walking.

Being exposed to this environment through training, in my opinion, will only benefit a provider if they do ever have to operate in such a scenario. Providers should have some level of comfort in a particular environment through training and exposure to that environment before they are expected to perform in a real life situation.

Speaking from a TEMS perspective, if there were a school shooting and I was an untrained provider, I wouldn't be comfortable if a SWAT officer said, hey this victim-rescue stuff is easy, just throw on this vest and helmet. The only skill you need is running.

[helicopper 1,050]

EMS still does not take main aspects of EMS training serious. MCI & Triage training, rescue scene safety, decon training, etc.

Very easy, if we need them. Put them in a harness and lower them down. The only skill they need is walking. To teach low angle (lowering, MA & packaging) skills takes about 12-16 hours.

EMS does not take training seriously - you're right!

"Very easy", "only pre-requisite is walking", and yet it takes 12-16 hours of training to perform the skills! How many EMS providers train for low angle rescue? Forget high angle/confined area/haz-mat where training may be much longer. Four nights or two days and people can't even get this basic training? It's pathetic!

[JJB531 652]

EMS does not take training seriously - you're right!

I neglected to mention that I agree with that statement 100%...

[Bnechis 3,961]

EMS does not take training seriously - you're right!

"Very easy", "only pre-requisite is walking", and yet it takes 12-16 hours of training to perform the skills! How many EMS providers train for low angle rescue? Forget high angle/confined area/haz-mat where training may be much longer. Four nights or two days and people can't even get this basic training? It's pathetic!

Chris, it takes 12-16 hrs to teach the rigging, lowering and hauling systems. the "walking" was how much (or little) we could get away with.