When the FD can get out for a call.

[TL2L31 8]

Which departments are you talking about?

Any dept that needs more manpower. These guys can multitask.

[TL2L31 8]

Say for instance a DPW worker that wants to works for the town. Whether it be a combo, or volly dept, if they want a job, the have to get ff1 and 2 certified within 1 yr and would be called to assist if needed. Alot of municipal workers are already ffs, but make it a requirement. It would not cost any more, and alleviate a manpower problem during day hours.

[Guest]

What about requiring municipal workers to be trained as ff to supplement the fd? Just a thought.

That opens up a whole new can of worms...

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=22534

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

What about requiring municipal workers to be trained as ff to supplement the fd? Just a thought.

Don't go there, sounds like R/ METRO talk. BAD THOUGHT VERY BAD! :angry:

[TL2L31 8]

I am not talking about hiring people just to work AT a firehouse to get a truck out like on LI.

[TL2L31 8]

No Ang, not a Rye Brook . How about a 100% volly dept? It would work for them.

[efd184 59]

I am not talking about hiring people just to work AT a firehouse to get a truck out like on LI.

DPW members have union contracts! That would never fly!

[Bnechis 3,961]

How many departments even have 36 truly active members that you can count on be it day or night?

How many departments would you need to mutual aid to cover the 36, and these are minimums we are talking about.

Mutual aid does not count. Automatic aid gets 90% credit, but only if the giving dept has the same or better rating than the recieving.

[Bnechis 3,961]

What about requiring municipal workers to be trained as ff to supplement the fd? Just a thought.

1) then who is going to do their work? I pay for them to maintain the city.

2) The training done on or off duty...who pays.

3) ISO will consider them on call only...so you still need 36 of them.

4) if you force them (make it a job requirement) They become career ff's then need the full traiining and will no longer be able to do the DPW job.

[firemoose827 324]

DPW members have union contracts! That would never fly!

Um, I work for my DPW and we dont have any unions. Not everyone has unions.

I believe that would be a good idea. They already work for the Town/Village and have insurance coverage through them. Losing one or two laborers to go on a call will not shut down the operations, so the "City" will still function...heaven forbid the potholes dont get filled right away while someones house is burning.

I think its a good idea, but Im not sure about the legal aspects of it.

This truly has run of course.

I believe the 10 minutes is a long time to wait, but like was posted so many times already, with volunteers we have a hard time leaving work for calls. Some of us work 2 FT jobs and dont get to see our kids and family. And with some depts who get out fast....with only a driver??? What good is that??? The truck shouldnt roll without a crew that can actually do some good. Otherwise the truck is useless.

Im all for paid staffing, todays fire service demands it. We need higher training standards and quicker response times. The people we protect are who we need to think about.

[efd184 59]

Um, I work for my DPW and we dont have any unions. Not everyone has unions.

I believe that would be a good idea. They already work for the Town/Village and have insurance coverage through them. Losing one or two laborers to go on a call will not shut down the operations, so the "City" will still function...heaven forbid the potholes dont get filled right away while someones house is burning.

I think its a good idea, but Im not sure about the legal aspects of it.

This truly has run of course.

I believe the 10 minutes is a long time to wait, but like was posted so many times already, with volunteers we have a hard time leaving work for calls. Some of us work 2 FT jobs and dont get to see our kids and family. And with some depts who get out fast....with only a driver??? What good is that??? The truck shouldnt roll without a crew that can actually do some good. Otherwise the truck is useless.

Im all for paid staffing, todays fire service demands it. We need higher training standards and quicker response times. The people we protect are who we need to think about.

i stand corrected!

[LTNRFD 266]

Back during the mid to late 1980's, there were a handful of cities in Florida that mandated that all of the police officers, in those cities, be crossed trained as firefighters. The cities sent these police officers to the fire academy as they would their firefighters. And you guessed it, the firefighters were sent to the police academy to become police officers. This created a department of public safety. All police/firefighters would be assigned to patrol duty and when there was a fire emergency, all road patrols would respond to the emergency. The 2 or 3 Firefighter/Paramedics on duty would be at the station and drive the apparatus to the scene. If the paramedics were on an EMS run then a road patrol would be assigned station duty. This put 3x's more cops on the road and increased the amount of on duty FF's by 50 %. The FF's now P.O.'s went into the P.D. work chart.

Edited January 23, 2008 by LTNRFD

[Doc 11]

Back during the mid to late 1980's, there were a handful of cities in Florida that mandated that all of the police officers, in those cities, be crossed trained as firefighters. The cities sent these police officers to the fire academy as they would their firefighters. And you guessed it, the firefighters were sent to the police academy to become police officers. This created a department of public safety. All police/firefighters would be assigned to patrol duty and when there was a fire emergency, all road patrols would respond to the emergency. The 2 or 3 Firefighter/Paramedics on duty would be at the station and drive the apparatus to the scene. If the paramedics were on an EMS run then a road patrol would be assigned station duty. This put 3x's more cops on the road and increased the amount of on duty FF's by 50 %. The FF's now P.O.'s went into the P.D. work chart.

And most stopped doing this why?

(I know why. I also know the REAL reason why.)

It's an interesting idea. Here's a public safety department in Wisconsin. They've been a combined Fire/Police/EMS agency for 25 years.

[JM15 386]

That is an interesting idea but I don't see it working that well. There still will be manpower problems. You can't take cops away from the streets to roll rigs. I don't see how that really works maybe someone can explain it in more depth?

[LTNRFD 266]

That is an interesting idea but I don't see it working that well. There still will be manpower problems. You can't take cops away from the streets to roll rigs. I don't see how that really works maybe someone can explain it in more depth?

It works. It just depends what level of services a community wants. Where the priorities lie. It doesn't make too much sense to us in the northeast, however every community has different needs and wants, hazards and problems. No 2 communities are the same, many are similar, but different. There is no cookie cutter answer to fire, police or EMS needs, so we all should think before we make statements about what is needed somewhere else. We all wish that every community has the best protection. The best that money can buy, or at least what a community can afford. It is everyones duty to educate John Q. Public as to what they can get for their tax dollar and what is needed to keep all emergency responders safe and able to do the job..

[DES630 10]

This is pretty funny to go with the topic

[ex-commish 490]

That is an interesting idea but I don't see it working that well. There still will be manpower problems. You can't take cops away from the streets to roll rigs. I don't see how that really works maybe someone can explain it in more depth?

When an officer has to put on turnout gear how is the officer's weapon, stun gun, pepper spray and any other form of defense that is carried secured?

[lad12derff 283]

In a "perfect world this might work, But in many smaller towns and villages, that would be a financial IMPOSSABILITY! A few years back, one of our commissioners did the math, putting just 1 career ff on 26/7/365. Considering salary, benefits, annual and sick leave, etc. the cost was prohibitive. And that was just for 1 fire fighter. Guess this aint a perfect world! I only wish I could remember the numbers.

County fire depts work just great with the overall tax burdon spread out.

[firemoose827 324]

When an officer has to put on turnout gear how is the officer's weapon, stun gun, pepper spray and any other form of defense that is carried secured?

I believe all of that would be taken off and locked securely in the patrol car or fire truck. Wouldnt it? I hope. That would suck if they forgot about it and the can of pepper spray blows, or the gun start shooting off.

A while back we had a structure fire, and when a bunch of us got out and were being re-habbed, I look over at a friend of mine who is also a PD officer and hes taking his turnout coat off, and there in a shoulder holster is his handgun... I was just crawling behind him!!

Would those things go off in high temps? Just curious.

Edited January 24, 2008 by moosecfd368

[TXCHIEF 9]

I believe all of that would be taken off and locked securely in the patrol car or fire truck. Wouldnt it? I hope. That would suck if they forgot about it and the can of pepper spray blows, or the gun start shooting off.

A while back we had a structure fire, and when a bunch of us got out and were being re-habbed, I look over at a friend of mine who is also a PD officer and hes taking his turnout coat off, and there in a shoulder holster is his handgun... I was just crawling behind him!!

Would those things go off in high temps? Just curious.

Having been a member of a combo Public Safety dept here in TX, the patrol officers on the street would secure their weapons and rig inside the trunk of their patrol vehicles, when donning their turnouts. In station, gun lockers were installed so that personnel responding along with officer assigned to station duty (typically CID investigators) could secure their weapons, prior to suiting up to respond. The establishment of a public safety dept in this community was done, to provide staffed response due to inadequate volunteer personnel especially during the day and was affordable to the community. Officers were certified and cross trained as firefighters and received additional compensation for it, as well as for additional certifications as EMT or Paramedic. Over the years from the early 80's unitil the late 90's the cross training continued until the Tax base grew and initially the break-up began with the bringing in house of ambulance service from a contract company, which was staffed by 1 emt and 1 Paramedic 24x7, to eventually in 2006 splitting the department into Police and Fire divisions with 6 personnel on duty per shift to respond both ambulance and 1st due engine. As noted earlier the service evolved as the tax base grew to be able to support the additional staffing needed.

[210 91]

Having been a member of a combo Public Safety dept here in TX, the patrol officers on the street would secure their weapons and rig inside the trunk of their patrol vehicles, when donning their turnouts. In station, gun lockers were installed so that personnel responding along with officer assigned to station duty (typically CID investigators) could secure their weapons, prior to suiting up to respond. The establishment of a public safety dept in this community was done, to provide staffed response due to inadequate volunteer personnel especially during the day and was affordable to the community. Officers were certified and cross trained as firefighters and received additional compensation for it, as well as for additional certifications as EMT or Paramedic. Over the years from the early 80's unitil the late 90's the cross training continued until the Tax base grew and initially the break-up began with the bringing in house of ambulance service from a contract company, which was staffed by 1 emt and 1 Paramedic 24x7, to eventually in 2006 splitting the department into Police and Fire divisions with 6 personnel on duty per shift to respond both ambulance and 1st due engine. As noted earlier the service evolved as the tax base grew to be able to support the additional staffing needed.

Chief correct me if I'm wrong but I believe DFW Airport worked that way at one time and still may. Also for any Horry County people out there to confirm, North Myrtle Beach is a public safety dept with dual roles. Like someone posted earlier, it works for some communities but it won't work everywhere. I think it would be more difficult where you have strong union representation.

Edited January 24, 2008 by 210

[TXCHIEF 9]

Chief correct me if I'm wrong but I believe DFW Airport worked that way at one time and still may. Also for any Horry County people out there to confirm, North Myrtle Beach is a public safety dept with dual roles. Like someone posted earlier, it works for some communities but it won't work everywhere. I think it would be more difficult where you have strong union representation.

210, your right about DFW airport they have had Public Safety officers since it was built. Your right, in that it will work in some communites and not others. being a born and raised former southern Westchester boy, I could not see the same type of department implemented up there......

[SgtGumby311 0]

Like everything else in Public Safety, it comes down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$

[ajsbear 11]

The timeframe for M/A has to be reduced but also remember it takes time to get to the firehouse. At 3 AM allow for time to dress and drive. Most of us at least up here do not live that close. I have a 4 minute drive and many have double that. 90% of the time I hear the second dispatch while on the road. Prehaps a change to a 4, 3, 2 format. If on the second dispatch no one signs on then the 3rd dispatch goes out to M/A as well.

[firemoose827 324]

The timeframe for M/A has to be reduced but also remember it takes time to get to the firehouse. At 3 AM allow for time to dress and drive. Most of us at least up here do not live that close. I have a 4 minute drive and many have double that. 90% of the time I hear the second dispatch while on the road. Prehaps a change to a 4, 3, 2 format. If on the second dispatch no one signs on then the 3rd dispatch goes out to M/A as well.

I know where your coming from. Some guys in my dept come from 5-10 miles out, they live in the "boonies" section of town and are surrounded by farms. On a winter morning call, say 4 am, they need to dress, unfreeze their car, drive to the station and get in turnouts. Im not saying thats a viable excuse, but some people think that all of the small town volunteers can just jump out of bed, slide down the "Bat Pole" and drop into the "Bat Mobile" fully dressed and be at the station within a minute or two...its not going to happen.

Maybe posting a schedule where you ask a few volunteers to hang out at the station for coverage, or even sleep there so you atleast have a driver that can take the truck to the scene and meet all of the "town" firefighters on scene. I have heard a lot of ideas kicked around, but none are realy feasible, and they all fall into legal issues. Just short of mandating that all houses next to the fire house be reserved for volunteer firefighters, I dont see how we can solve this without implementing paid staff atleast Monday-Friday 6a-6p.

Good discussion, and Im learning about some of the legalities behind this stuff.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

How many Town/Village employees are also involved in their local FD's? How many are allowed to leave when there is a fire call? If they do leave in the course of their WORK DAY, are they still getting paid while being on a FIRE CALL? I have seen many DEPT's around WESTCHESTER where a member takes the TOWN/VILLAGE truck right to the FD. Do members have to call into their respected jobs and tell their SUPERVISORS that they are going to be out of service for a little while? I think the problem might come in when there is work to be done in the TOWN/VILLAGE and there is a working fire that job for the day doesn't get done. Now if you don't get paid for the time you are at a FIRE CALL I don't have a problem with anybody responding. If you do get paid then in MY OPINION you are STEALING from your COMMUNITY. EVEN IF IT IS MY HOUSE THAT IS ON FIRE I WOULD THINK THAT.

I am all for TOWN/VILLAGE EMPLOYEES responding to FD/EMS calls as long as they don't get paid to do so.

[Guest]

If you do get paid then in MY OPINION you are STEALING from your COMMUNITY.

I am all for TOWN/VILLAGE EMPLOYEES responding to FD/EMS calls as long as they don't get paid to do so.

i believe they do in the town, at least thats what the town employees say happens...

i guess the FD's in town have been PAID for quite some time, huh?

btw, welcome back!

[INIT915 1,119]

Of course they can. State law requires local government (City's, Villages, Fire Districts, etc.) have to provide fire protection. Thus they have a "duty to act". If the chief, commissioners, or gov officials are aware that a problem exists, then they have liability for not providing the service.

Can you provide any case law related to this? Or examples of (successful) civil action resulting from one of these "failure(s) of duty to act"?

There are a number of notable cases, mostly involving Police and response to domestic violence (or lack thereof), in which State and Federal Courts found that while law enforcement had a duty to act, civil recourse could not proceed if there was infact a failure to act.

[ajsbear 11]

How many Town/Village employees are also involved in their local FD's? How many are allowed to leave when there is a fire call? If they do leave in the course of their WORK DAY, are they still getting paid while being on a FIRE CALL? I have seen many DEPT's around WESTCHESTER where a member takes the TOWN/VILLAGE truck right to the FD. Do members have to call into their respected jobs and tell their SUPERVISORS that they are going to be out of service for a little while? I think the problem might come in when there is work to be done in the TOWN/VILLAGE and there is a working fire that job for the day doesn't get done. Now if you don't get paid for the time you are at a FIRE CALL I don't have a problem with anybody responding. If you do get paid then in MY OPINION you are STEALING from your COMMUNITY. EVEN IF IT IS MY HOUSE THAT IS ON FIRE I WOULD THINK THAT.

I am all for TOWN/VILLAGE EMPLOYEES responding to FD/EMS calls as long as they don't get paid to do so.

I work for a mulri billions $ corporation. If I go to a fire during the day I don't get docked pay. Yes I work from home and they don't have to know but not only have I told them in the past they incourage volunteerism. They even write these things up in the corporate newsletter. Most towns and villages know who belongs to the FD or EMS, they know you'll respond if a job comes in so get over it. Do you volunteer?

Edited January 25, 2008 by ajsbear

[Remember585 815]

I just realized that this is called "When the FD can get out for a call."

Shouldn't it be "can't" ???

I have a couple of questions for Captain Barry.

For those of us in Vollyland, where we are suppost to bring 36 people, does that mean every call or every structure fire?

Also, what if an IC decides that the fire does not require 36 people and keeps apparatus and manpower in quarters? Can they do that?

I know, it probably seems like a far-out question but I'm working the overnight and a little tired. Thanks.

Now...

A lot of departments feel as though they are "covering a call" when a rig gets out. Does this mean that your apparatus, perhaps only a Mini-Pumper, Rescue or Utility, responds with maybe just a driver and you feel that you "covered the call?" I know a lot of places respond driver only, and I just never felt like it accomplishes much. It could be because of where I am from where we need to crew the rig before responding, unless otherwise ordered by the IC. In my humblest of humble opinions, I would much rather have everyone come in on an appratus, where an IC can give the rigs orders and the Company Officer can give the crew assignments. It also makes accountability a hell of a lot easier too.

And...

The idea of training community workers to fight fires.... I feel that if they want to volunteer they will, if you want to force that training on them then they should take a test and become a career FF. Having the DPW or other community employees around to help cover calls is GREAT, but I don't think you can TELL a guy driving a backhoe he has to take Firefighter I.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

Edited January 25, 2008 by Remember585