When the FD can get out for a call.

[Ging599 13]

This morning our FD was called when our neighboring Dept. could not get out for a call and it got me thinking.

How long does dispatch wait before calling mutual aid when a department can not get out for their own call? What protocols are in place to address this and are they county or department policies? If someone from the department that has the call signs on the base station in the firehouse, does responsibility for calling mutual aid shift from dispatch to the member that signs on if they aren't an officer? Does dispatch adjust their procedure if an alarm comes in via multiple calls or a more serious sounding nature from 911 callers?

On the FD side of it, can a department be held liable for property loss or injury as a result of them not being able to respond in a timely manner?

I apologize if this has been addressed but my mind started going at 2am when this took place and I could not recall seeing this on the board.

[firemoose827 324]

Thats a big problem being faced by a lot of volunteer departments whos membership cant get out of work or family obligations to respond to calls. Its a shame, but its life, and also why I supported the "County Wide System" another member brought up in another thread. Today's fire service is MUCH different than the past, and there are more strains on the membership as far as work, family, and personal life. The training ( for us in NY) went from 39 hours of Essentials of Firemanship to over 80 hours in Firefighter I.

The call volumes are increasing with Carbon Monoxide calls and fire alarm activations and EMS calls, and the need for further training on more high tech equipment is increasing the training demands on firefighters everywhere.

For us in our dept., usually the first officer on the air will be the one to make the determination for MA. We get three tones, 3 minutes apart. If we dont answer the call at all ( Meaning no officers either) the dispatch goes to the next closest department.

If there is an officer, they will tell dispatch who to call. If there is only a firefighter at station without an officer, they are instructed to call dispatch and say turn it over to next available dept.

Its a shame, but on my priority list the department is 3rd to family and work. When I was young and single, and still living with my parents, I responded to everything, and took every class I heard in the county, and even went to the Academy a few times...but today, its just not possible. Its time for the new "Younger" crew to take over. I wish I could still be as active.

Moose

[jack10562 414]

These are important questions, here's another: did the alert/alarm tones even go out properly?

Sometimes calls get broadcast on the wrong system, ie: fire alert tones transmitted over the police frequency.

I would think an agency should automatically re-transmit when no units sign on after two to three minutes, and automatically go Mutual Aid after a second unsuccessful dispatch.

How "small" is the neighboring department? Do they have a history of being unable to respond to alarms?

How many calls a month do they get? One, ten, sixty?

There are other issues, (and I think most likely, here) was the call for one of the department's Frequent Flyers, a location with repeated automatic (false) alarms @2AM, or was it for a CO detector activation W/no symptoms, or otherwise "nuisance" call?

I doubt if an agency or municipality could be held liable in the event of a blown call, but you can "bet the ranch", there WILL be a lawsuit.

[efd184 59]

I have the answer!

Hire career members that will be on 24hrs a day 7 days a week 365 days a year!

[PC_420 28]

In Putnam mutual aid for a fire department with no response goes like this:

Initial Dispatch

Wait 4 minutes

Second Dispatch (if no response)

Wait 4 minutes

Third Dispatch (if no response)

Wait 4 minutes

If still no response from base, automatic mutual aid; if the base does sign on but does not have the manpower to respond, the base is asked if they want more tones or mutual aid.

Edited January 21, 2008 by PC_420

[Ging599 13]

All tones went out properly because their base was manned but they couldn't get a truck out.

They are a smaller dept., not too busy and this was a C/O call.

My questioning was not because of this specific call but because this is becoming all too common an occurrence for ALL types of calls. You have a situation like this and a new member gets on the base and could be faced with this situation and have no idea what they are doing. Also, listen to your radios and listen sometimes to how long it takes for mutual aid to be requested, whether it be due to pride or a "nuisance" call. Either way it is disheartening and DANGEROUS and I was curious as to who has and makes procedures concerning the questions in my original post and what they are.

I think the hiring paid of people, which I am in favor of (just my opinion), is a subject for another thread which has been discussed. I am merely looking for answers pertaining to this situation.

Thanks 420. One more question for you. If the base signs on, does that mean that the member on the radio assumes all responsibility for requesting mutual aid and it is out of the dispatchers hands? Like I stated above, a lot of times, the newest member will be on the radio and may not have a clue what to do when faced with this.

As a homeowner in Putnam, I feel that 12 minutes is a long time to wait just to REQUEST mutual aid.

Edited January 21, 2008 by Ging599

[DR104 141]

In Putnam mutual aid for a fire department with no response goes like this:

Initial Dispatch

Wait 4 minutes

Second Dispatch (if no response)

Wait 4 minutes

Third Dispatch (if no response)

Wait 4 minutes

If still no response from base, automatic mutual aid; if the base does sign on but does not have the manpower to respond, the base is asked if they want more tones or mutual aid.

12 + minutes!!!!!! I hope I am reading this wrong and that it will and never happened!!!!!!!!!!!!

[efd184 59]

All tones went out properly because their base was manned but they couldn't get a truck out.

They are a smaller dept., not too busy and this was a C/O call.

My questioning was not because of this specific call but because this is becoming all too common an occurrence for ALL types of calls. You have a situation like this and a new member gets on the base and could be faced with this situation and have no idea what they are doing. Also, listen to your radios and listen sometimes to how long it takes for mutual aid to be requested, whether it be due to pride or a "nuisance" call. Either way it is disheartening and DANGEROUS and I was curious as to who has and makes procedures concerning the questions in my original post and what they are.

I think the hiring paid of people, which I am in favor of (just my opinion), is a subject for another thread which has been discussed. I am merely looking for answers pertaining to this situation.

Thanks 420. One more question for you. If the base signs on, does that mean that the member on the radio assumes all responsibility for requesting mutual aid and it is out of the dispatchers hands? Like I stated above, a lot of times, the newest member will be on the radio and may not have a clue what to do when faced with this.

If this is becoming all to common on ALL types of calls then it is time for CHANGE!

The answer is a career staff!

The boys up there may not like the answer but they are the ones not showing up soooooooo oh well.

[Guest]

If I lived in a town that allowed 12 minutes to pass before even confirming that somoene was coming to help me...well I'll just say that if I get my way I will be the proud new owner of some useless fire equipment!!

If a department can't figure out if they can respond within 3 minutes, there is a problem. Swallow your pride and call for mutual aid.

[PC_420 28]

Well unfortunately that is current protocol in Putnam County. And yes it is pretty much put on whoever is their at the base. We will unofficially try to prompt the base to m/a if we have to.

[PC_420 28]

Okay I must apologize and revise my previous post a tiny bit(hopefully my mix up is a testament to how little we have to use this protocol:

In Putnam mutual aid for a fire department with no response goes like this:

Initial Dispatch

Wait 4 minutes

Second Dispatch (if no response)

Wait 4 minutes

Third Dispatch (if no response)

Wait 2 minutes

If still no response from base, automatic mutual aid; if the base does sign on but does not have the manpower to respond, the base is asked if they want more tones or mutual aid.

So this cuts it down to 10 minutes.

Edited January 21, 2008 by PC_420

[firemoose827 324]

Does anyone here use the following type of dispatch, forgive me I forgot the name of it, maybe someone can enlighten me!!

But I heard a county once dispatch in the following manner;

Agency one toned out.

2 minutes later, agency one second tones, agency 2 first tones.

2 minutes later, agency 1 third tones, agency 2 second tones, agency 3 first tones.

And so on untill sufficient help enroute. Does anyone know what they call this type of dispatch? I believe it was Priority Dispatch? And does anyone here use this style? If so, can you please PM me with the specifics? Im looking into it for our county to possibly think about. Thanks all.

[DOC22 1]

I have the answer!

Hire career members that will be on 24hrs a day 7 days a week 365 days a year!

In a "perfect world this might work, But in many smaller towns and villages, that would be a financial IMPOSSABILITY! A few years back, one of our commissioners did the math, putting just 1 career ff on 26/7/365. Considering salary, benefits, annual and sick leave, etc. the cost was prohibitive. And that was just for 1 fire fighter. Guess this aint a perfect world! I only wish I could remember the numbers.

[efd184 59]

If the tax payers want reliable fire and ems service that is the direction they would need to go if the situation does not get better.

[Monty 35]

Okay I must apologize and revise my previous post a tiny bit(hopefully my mix up is a testament to how little we have to use this protocol:

In Putnam mutual aid for a fire department with no response goes like this:

Initial Dispatch

Wait 4 minutes

Second Dispatch (if no response)

Wait 4 minutes

Third Dispatch (if no response)

Wait 2 minutes

If still no response from base, automatic mutual aid; if the base does sign on but does not have the manpower to respond, the base is asked if they want more tones or mutual aid.

So this cuts it down to 10 minutes.

There was a podcast on firehouse.com that I listened to. I forget exactly which one it was, but they talked about a survey that some community did about response times for EMS and Fire. Basically the average homeowner expected a response to be about 10 minutes. They followed this with saying that those in the service know that is too long - the point was to educate the community if you wanted to increase spending.

Obviously in this case, the response is going to be longer because it's 10 minutes before the mutual aid is called - so that may need to be revised to make the average home owner happy with the response time!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

In New Fairfield mutual aid is usually called by the 4th tone, depending on the type of call. We wait 2 minutes between tones, so thats 8 minutes without a response. Though we usually can have at least an officer on the air to give an assessment/size-up, and he/she will request mutual aid earlier if it is nessecary.

You will never see career FDs in most of Putnam County, they don't have the call volume to require it.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

In a "perfect world this might work, But in many smaller towns and villages, that would be a financial IMPOSSABILITY! A few years back, one of our commissioners did the math, putting just 1 career ff on 26/7/365. Considering salary, benefits, annual and sick leave, etc. the cost was prohibitive. And that was just for 1 fire fighter. Guess this aint a perfect world! I only wish I could remember the numbers.

Not to start a controversy here, but this kind of thinking infuriates me. Think of all the services that your village would pay for rather then your fire protection: that nice new park, a new extension of the school system maybe? a new statue dedicated to Mrs Jones who used to plant daisies in the town square, as in my town unnecessary police forces that each neighboring town has such as a K-9 unit, a mounted/motorcycle cop. It always makes me upset to see failing volunteer agencies such as the ambulance corps. and the fire departments, but like was mentioned earlier in this thread we have to swallow our pride and look at when it is the village/town/cities responsibility to PROVIDE our fire protection rather than RELY on one.

Another thing people fail to see here is that when the pagers go off, a lot of local shops and local agencies shut down for the fire alarm, is this providing a service to the local municipality or a disservice. What about Volunteers who are teachers and leave the school system for an alarm!! How would you feel if that was your child's teacher. I have heard this happens in a few municipalities in Westchester.

I am not bashing the volunteer service at all, I think its great, and love to see highly trained motivated volunteers, I have worked with both, and I am always happy to see enthusiastic volunteers and give advice. But when we can't get the rigs out we have to step back and bring someone in, if its a few times and m/a can cover OK, if not we HAVE to look at hiring a supplemental staff at first, tell the parents or a child of a victim who succumbed to smoke or fire that we couldn't get there because of.... the above quoted passage.

Just my thoughts as always, very welcome to constructive criticism, and hopefully provided some.

[DOC22 1]

If the tax payers want reliable fire and ems service that is the direction they would need to go if the situation does not get better.

Ok, maybe so, but you can't get blood from a stone. Where do you get money from??? What good is it when your taxes go so high that you lose most pf your tax base??? your solution just might work in a large area whit mostly commercial tax base, but these small towns can't! Why do you think so many houses are going up for sale so fast? Almost every other day I see antoher house with for sale signs in front, and believe me, it aint because people just like to pack up and move every other day!

[DOC22 1]

Not to start a controversy here, but this kind of thinking infuriates me. Think of all the services that your village would pay for rather then your fire protection: that nice new park, a new extension of the school system maybe? a new statue dedicated to Mrs Jones who used to plant daisies in the town square, as in my town unnecessary police forces that each neighboring town has such as a K-9 unit, a mounted/motorcycle cop. It always makes me upset to see failing volunteer agencies such as the ambulance corps. and the fire departments, but like was mentioned earlier in this thread we have to swallow our pride and look at when it is the village/town/cities responsibility to PROVIDE our fire protection rather than RELY on one.

Another thing people fail to see here is that when the pagers go off, a lot of local shops and local agencies shut down for the fire alarm, is this providing a service to the local municipality or a disservice. What about Volunteers who are teachers and leave the school system for an alarm!! How would you feel if that was your child's teacher. I have heard this happens in a few municipalities in Westchester.

I am not bashing the volunteer service at all, I think its great, and love to see highly trained motivated volunteers, I have worked with both, and I am always happy to see enthusiastic volunteers and give advice. But when we can't get the rigs out we have to step back and bring someone in, if its a few times and m/a can cover OK, if not we HAVE to look at hiring a supplemental staff at first, tell the parents or a child of a victim who succumbed to smoke or fire that we couldn't get there because of.... the above quoted passage.

Just my thoughts as always, very welcome to constructive criticism, and hopefully provided some.

First off I'm not in a village, I'm in a town, and that town doesn't have any "over the top" anything. As for school teachers leaving, I've never heard of that and find it highly unlikely it happens anywhere.

Well this type of thinking infuriates me as well!!!!! Yeah, I know some towns have their favorite "pork barrel" projects, however this isn't enough to support full time career anything so let's just leave it at that, Because, as I said earlier, the cost will drive people out faster than they are running away now! Also remember the economy is not in the best shape either.

nuff said

[Jason762 2]

Ok so if there is no way of putting a career staff in place, now what? How about simultaniously dispatching multiple companies/dept's to a call right off the bat. By waiting until the second, third, or fourth tone we are wasting valuable time. Chances are a lot better that someone will be able to get a rig on the road if multiple companies are assigned to the call. If the dept. whose district the call is in can handle the call then cancel the other responding units. Pretty simple solution, no?

[jack10562 414]

Ok so if there is no way of putting a career staff in place, now what? How about simultaniously dispatching multiple companies/dept's to a call right off the bat. By waiting until the second, third, or fourth tone we are wasting valuable time. Chances are a lot better that someone will be able to get a rig on the road if multiple companies are assigned to the call. If the dept. whose district the call is in can handle the call then cancel the other responding units. Pretty simple solution, no?

Many Westchester VFD's already do have a dual-response protocol, complete with time of day and location based response design. This helps ensure adequate personnel and equipment do in fact get out, especially during the day when many members are at work in jobs out of town.

I found a very interesting article regarding costs, it's dated, but relevant, none the less.

http://www.newsday.com/news/specials/nyf-i...l_nassau_xpromo

[DOC22 1]

Ok so if there is no way of putting a career staff in place, now what? How about simultaniously dispatching multiple companies/dept's to a call right off the bat. By waiting until the second, third, or fourth tone we are wasting valuable time. Chances are a lot better that someone will be able to get a rig on the road if multiple companies are assigned to the call. If the dept. whose district the call is in can handle the call then cancel the other responding units. Pretty simple solution, no?

Now, that might work. I know that career guys want to see more jobs created for brother and sister FFs, I just know that it is easier said than done in a lot of areas. Unfortunatly or fortunately, depending upon how you look at it, the economy, and taxes are so far out, that people are bailing out at an alarming rate. Hell, I've seen it with my department. One thing I think we can all agree on, is that it ain't the way it used to be!!!

[ajsbear 11]

This is why there is a need to consolidate departments. With call volumns in Putnam and at least in the area I'm fimiliar with, a career department just isn't afordable. In Phillipstown there have been 3 calls I can think of that needed M/A to handle in the last year. 2 were wires and one an odor of gas all in the middle of the night in bad weather. Getting new members is a problem. Keeping them as well. I was just at the fire in Peekskill on Main street and with the M/A companies there were more than enough people there, esspecially with the cold.

If you consollidate departments all the better chance of getting out a full rig then with just 3 or 3 people. The distance one must travel to get to the fire house is another issue no one really looks at. Some areas its 4 or 5 miles or even more to the fire house. 2 minutes for the member go get out of the house and start the car. another 5 to the fire house. Get dressed and on the truck another 2. Fully staff a house for 200 calls a year? At the cost of $10 million with benefits stc. Its just not going to happen righ now. Consolodate, if that doesn't work then a como department may be next. All the career departments in Westchester started as Vollunteer, then combo then career so it takes time to evolve.

[50-65 205]

OK. So to get back the OP's question. If my dept. doesn't answer tones within 3 minutes we are automatically resounded and our other dept in district is called.

If we answer that we are assembling but haven't responded, County will call to see if we are responding. At that point, if we can't respond, OIC/Senior FF will instruct County to resound and also dispatch other dept.

In addition to the dept chiefs, (2 Seperate Depts = 4 Chiefs), there are also 2 District Chiefs. It is rare that the above protocol has to be followed but it has occurred.

In any case, either apparatus or a chief is on the road, usually within 3-5 minutes.

[Guest]

This may interest you, our stations here in South Australia have an auto default system.

Urban stations have 4 mins

Rural stations have 6 mins

Once they accept the call its up to them to make sure they get out the door

The department is looking at defaulting again if they don't book mobile in 8 mins.

Personally, in an urban area if you don't look like getting a crew by 4 mins, then you should be making sure someone else is going.

[Guest]

In my town, if no one signs on for the first or second tone, then the original and first MA agencies are both toned on the third tone. I can't remember if its two or 4 minutes between tones, but I believe it is two. We also just began a program of a townwide tone for anything remotely sounding like a structure fire during the daytime. If you listen to LCD at all, around the Barkhamsted area, there are usually three depts toned out on the first tone, and whoever is on scene first will assume command and return or continue response of other units. This sounds like it works pretty well for them.

[Remember585 815]

If memory serves me, our policy at 60 Control is this:

Tones. If no response then tones again after 5 minutes. If still no response, third tones and usually Mutual Aid starts. It doesn't happen often, but I have had to do it.

Once a unit, any unit, from an FD signs on, then it is in their hands to tell us if additional tones are needed or not.

A lot of Departments will pride themselves on getting out the door quick, but it's with a driver only. To me, that really isn't covering anything. What if that rig arrives with the driver and nobody else is there. Oh, it's only an automatic alarm, what are the odds? Oh wait, we have smoke showing! Can you drive, run the call, stretch a line all at the same time?

I doubt it.

Paid staffiing would be the answer if it was possible, but some smaller areas can't afford it. Like others have said, start consolidating and/or developing dual response plans.

The public expects us to provide a service, it is out job to do it right.

[Ging599 13]

I appreciate the responses. Being in Putnam, I feel that 10 minutes before requesting mutual aid is too long. This is part of why I started the thread. I was also curious as to who sets these protocols, etc.

No one has really touched the liability side of my question. I imagine that the fire departments have some sort of duty to act (for lack of a better term) and can be held liable for a failure to respond but I could be wrong.

The solutions thread has been up before. I personally feel a combination of consolidation and paying personnel may be the way to go but it is going to take someone with some real gumption to begin those wheels in motion. There is a whole lot of duplication of equipment up here and no one to roll it.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

Doc 22, I feel that both our views are correct, I am not saying that career staffing is cheap, but this really isn't a cost item. If you can NOT get a rig out instead of RELYING on rigs the municipality should PROVIDE the fire protection. I believe that this is a fact and can not be debated, HOWEVER I agree with you that most places can NOT afford it currently.

Can we look back 10 maybe 15 years ago with the ambulance corps? I believe there were no paid medics or EMTs in most agencies outside of the cities. All of the agencies were 100% volunteer? I could be mistaken (not counting major cities, Yonkers, W.P., New Rochelle, etc..) Somewhere we had a problem people were dying, ambulances had hard times getting out, so what did municipalities start doing? Hiring their own supplemental paramedics with fly cars, or a group of towns hiring an agency together, splitting the cost, maybe this could be an option Why can't there be a new castle dept? A Mt. Pleasant dept? Or a Westchester County Fire Dept? Or some larger area dept that can provide a steady engine and a truck if the local departments cannot get out. With the call volume between a few departments it would be more then enough to warrant a paid staff. This is just an idea. Also keep in mind that when hiring a career staff its pretty likely that they will hire people familiar with the area or with some sort of residency requirement. And if the funding from multiple municipalities still can not be afforded to have this staffing then I certainly wouldn't want to live there as well and you can count on a for sale sign in my front yard as well.

Edited January 21, 2008 by JustSomeGuy

[ex-commish 490]

In a "perfect world this might work, But in many smaller towns and villages, that would be a financial IMPOSSABILITY! A few years back, one of our commissioners did the math, putting just 1 career ff on 26/7/365. Considering salary, benefits, annual and sick leave, etc. the cost was prohibitive. And that was just for 1 fire fighter. Guess this aint a perfect world! I only wish I could remember the numbers.

Perhaps for one dept it would be expensive. But what if you merged several small depts? Would it be much of a tax burden than? I dont want my taxes to go up any more than they have but lets face it....by hook or crook the rigs have to get out with people who know what they are doing..bottom line. We have to provide a service. If you can't do it with your volunteers than the only logical answer would be to hire. If you don't want to hire than merge and pool whatever manpower you have or like stated in another post start dual responses.