Rye's Ladder Situation

[TBarnum 2]

Rye does not have tillered ladders any more because it takes 2 to get it on the road.

The career firefighter for ladder 25 would sit in quarters waiting for a tillerman and the rig was not getting out.

Also in Rye are the LOW Metro North overpasses which make it tough for an enclosed tiller seat to fit under.

I am sure Port Chester wrestled with both these issues as well as the financial aspect.

Sometimes CHANGE has to happen.

Good Luck to Harry Howard Company with the new stick!

Edited January 19, 2008 by EMTbravo
SPLIT TOPIC FROM PORT CHESTER LADDER THREAD

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Interesting how the tillerman spot was filled, I had thought 1 ladder was a paid ladder and the other was the volunteer rig. was this system always used with 1 paid driver waiting on a voulunteer response, or were there 2 man paid crews at one time and cuts forced the ladder to have only 1 man? Thanks guys be safe.

[TL2L31 8]

Rye always had a paid driver and waited for a tillerman. In 2001 ,with the purchase of a rearmount, they dont have to wait anymore. Ladder 26 is a volunteer rig.

[JBJ1202 27]

i know that harrison was in a similar situation with the career man driving the front waiting for a tillerman. this was solved with the purchase of the tower ladder. at that time only two fireman were on the clock... so one the other would driver the engine... with 3 on at a time now that tiller situation might be different.. maybe next time around harrison will go back to the seagrave tiller.

Edited January 18, 2008 by JBJ1202

[TL2L31 8]

It would better than what they have now! Rye is constantly covering for them because TL24 is always going out of service. Another dept with Sutpen problems.

[turk182 37]

Rye always had a paid driver and waited for a tillerman. In 2001 ,with the purchase of a rearmount, they dont have to wait anymore. Ladder 26 is a volunteer rig.

Ladder 26 is a SPARE Ladder. Currently there are no volunteers qualified to drive it so I do not see how it can be called a volunteer truck.

[TL2L31 8]

Investigate that issue further.

[Guest]

As of jan 1 they are now performing driver training so engine 193, 194, and ladder 25 will become full volunteer trucks they just have not completed the driver training.

[TL2L31 8]

As of jan 1 they are now performing driver training so engine 193, 194, and ladder 25 will become full volunteer trucks they just have not completed the driver training.

I think you mean Ladder 26.

[Guest]

I think you mean Ladder 26.

oh yes my mistake ladder 26

[beavis 11]

TL2L31, To clarify the matter, Rye has a spare engine and a spare ladder. Engine 194 was not pump tested nor does it carry adequate hose or SCBA. The only volunteer rig Rye has is Utility 39. Plain and simply. Sorry for being on the wrong thread.

[TL2L31 8]

I personally know thre qualified driver of Ladder 26 who is training 3 to 4 other drivers at this time. They go out usually every Sunday. This rig will be staffed by volunteers when enough members get qualified. It is good to see the members of Rye getting more active now that both houses have finished construction and the volunteers have their own rigs again.

[beavis 11]

I personally know thre qualified driver of Ladder 26 who is training 3 to 4 other drivers at this time. They go out usually every Sunday. This rig will be staffed by volunteers when enough members get qualified. It is good to see the members of Rye getting more active now that both houses have finished construction and the volunteers have their own rigs again.

You can "staff" it all you want. Its a "spare" rig, not a volunteer rig. Big difference between driving it and operating it also. There should be more effort in expanding the membership then there is "qualifing" people to "drive" a piece of equipment that won't be responding anywhere,anytime soon. My 2 cents

[JBJ1202 27]

if ladder 26 is a spare... then what is the point of doing driver training on it. if ladder 25 is out of service the career man will be driving it, correct? i see a difference in opinion of what the exact purpose is of this second ladder. i believe that volunteers should have the ability to respond in as the second due ladder in certain situations (ie multiple calls in district, M/A, special call). i agree that you need the membership prior to being able to put the truck into service, but it should be explored.

where is 242steve on this one???

Edited January 19, 2008 by JBJ1202

[x635 4,066]

Let's remember to post only factual information here and not let egos or misperceptions glaze over the truth. Bickering gets us nowhere, and only causes tension.

The fact of the matter is, there's a HUGE difference between being trained to DRIVE an apparatus, and a qualified APPARATUS OPERATOR. Also, a TRUCK COMPANY isn't just a ladder responding, it's four or more firefighters trained and able to perform truck company operations.

In my opinion, if you're not going to drive apparatus regularly, then you shouldn't drive at all. Fire apparatus are unique beasts, and the more often you drive, the more proficient you are. Someone who's going to only drive the apparatus a couple of times a year, at most, poses a huge training and liability risk. If you are "qualifying people to drive", that is not enough. They should know the apparatus inside and out, from both a firefighting perspective and a maintainence perspective, the streets of the district inside and out, and drive the apparatus to emergency calls on a regular basis.

Also, as far as I am told by someone at Seagrave, Seagrave does not train anyone at the factory. Nor does the dealer, which would be Excelsior. Their role is to simply explain the apparatus and how to use it's features. It is the department's ultimate responsibilty to train it's members on the apparatus, and the member doing the training should have extensive experience operating fire apparatus, as well as strict SOP's and standards for the operators.

Being an Apparatus Operator (no, you don't just "drive" apparatus) is a role I take seriously. It's not a hobby, you have a huge responsiblity, probaly the most on scene next to the Chief. It's a shame some departments take it so lightly. You aren't just driving a pick up truck, you have the responsiblity of getting firefighters to the scene safely, and using that machine to protect and save lives, and a lot of times firefighters lives depend on the APPARATUS OPERATOR. So, even just getting it to the scene isn't enough if you can't use it proficently.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

You can "staff" it all you want. Its a "spare" rig, not a volunteer rig. Big difference between driving it and operating it also. There should be more effort in expanding the membership then there is "qualifing" people to "drive" a piece of equipment that won't be responding anywhere,anytime soon. My 2 cents

Big difference between driving it and operating it......I hate to burst your bubble but.....It's not rocket science to "fly the stick", this is a small wheel base rig, no pump on it, with a pre piped water way...no big deal it should be very user friendly.

On another note the volunteers cant take an engine and ladder not manned by the paid guys to an alarm?

[TL2L31 8]

You can "staff" it all you want. Its a "spare" rig, not a volunteer rig. Big difference between driving it and operating it also. There should be more effort in expanding the membership then there is "qualifing" people to "drive" a piece of equipment that won't be responding anywhere,anytime soon. My 2 cents

They are qualifying to drive and operate the rig. It will respond to as a second ladder to all schools and large structures when a list is completed. This info came directly from a Warden of the department. You can say whatever you want, but the vollies are getting active and people will just have to deal with it.

[beavis 11]

They are qualifying to drive and operate the rig. It will respond to as a second ladder to all schools and large structures when a list is completed. This info came directly from a Warden of the department. You can say whatever you want, but the vollies are getting active and people will just have to deal with it.

Understand this, and I speak for myself. I have no problem with vollunteers as I was one myself. Lets cut through this crap and get to our manning issue. In Port Chester you have a deep volunteer base. In Rye we don't. Instead of worrying who is going to drive the"spare" ladder around and possibly responding to calls, the real issue is getting to the scene in a timely and safe manner and helping the first due apparatus. Don't thin out our response but having one or more people waste time rolling a ladder when we need them at the scene. I am very surprised with you since you are very familiar with our situation, but you continue to fuel this fire. No pun intended. Enough said

[x635 4,066]

Big difference between driving it and operating it......I hate to burst your bubble but.....It's not rocket science to "fly the stick", this is a small wheel base rig, no pump on it, with a pre piped water way...no big deal it should be very user friendly.

Peoples LIVES, including other firefighters, depend on the apparatus operator placing the stick PERFECTLY. If you do not operate the stick on a regular basis, or drive the apparatus on a regular basis, then you're not going to be proficient at it, period. It's not as easy as it looks, especially when you have tight streets, trees, power lines, etc everywhere.....not to mention large, set back houses and institutions. It's a skill, not one that is as easy as it looks, and it's not one that should be taken lightly.

They are qualifying to drive and operate the rig. It will respond to as a second ladder to all schools and large structures when a list is completed. This info came directly from a Warden of the department. You can say whatever you want, but the vollies are getting active and people will just have to deal with it.

I believe he is more referring to the staffing of the aerial device. Will the ladder be responding with a crew of four or more members qualified and able to perform truck company ops? Will this ladder get out of the door within a reasonable time for every dispatch? (we all know that sometimes if a ladder isn't the first to arrive, it's very hard to place) If it's being used to respond to schools and large structures, I would imagine that the most important tool on this apparatus would be the firefighters, who especially with a straight stick, would be needed to help faciliate any rescue using the aerial.

It's all good to have "Volunteer Pride", which seems to be more of the goal of your post. All I want to read is factual information, not claims that the volunteers are getting active. That's great, but I think people are just concerned that it be done in a proper and safe way so that no one gets hurt, and that the correct and truthful information from the proper sources is being posted here.

[Guest]

You can say whatever you want, but the vollies are getting active and people will just have to deal with it.

What is that supposed to mean? Isn't it about how we can protect the public best? Or is it about the volunteers "besting" the career guys? Also, are you a member of Rye FD? Because if you're not, then I wonder if the Rye FD guys would appreciate you posting this information, especially if it is skewed.

[OLDGUY19 6]

Here We Go Again,turned into paid/volley issue again. :angry: Nobody wins. Because you cannot change things in your town or how you operate on this forum. All this ever does is give the people who run this forum a headache. Just my two cent.

[turk182 37]

Seeing how this is now its own topic I will chime in on it. Rye's Ladder 26 is a spare ladder not solely volunteer rig. In the past when Rye has had a spare ladder it was manned by the career staff when the front line was out of service, and the volunteers/ career would man it for fire duty. When I say fire duty I mean multiple alarm fires within Rye and Mutual Aid calls for standby(calls for mutual aid to the scene of the fire have also been front line piece of equipment either engine or ladder). There are currently some members who are training to become qualified on Ladder 26, they are being trained by someone who claims to have been qualified "at the factory" which is not something Seagrave does. To the best of my knowledge this person has not been designated as a qualified driver by the Board of Wardens. I do not mean to imply that this person is not capable of driving/operating it, he just lacks the endorsement of the Board(to the best of my knowledge).

Investigate that issue further.

I do not need to investigate this further, as that I am part of the City of Rye Fire Department and get my info first hand.

I personally know thre qualified driver of Ladder 26 who is training 3 to 4 other drivers at this time. They go out usually every Sunday. This rig will be staffed by volunteers when enough members get qualified. It is good to see the members of Rye getting more active now that both houses have finished construction and the volunteers have their own rigs again.

Some of this I have mentioned above. As for the rest here we go. There has been discussion for years about staffing some of the equipment with volunteers to date that is all it is talk. How do you know what the members in Rye are doing you are not a member. There is a small group of active members in the ladder company and I do give them a lot of credit. For my 2 cents I would much rather see these guys respond to the call were the manpower is desperately needed rather then go and standby and or respond with the 2nd due ladder. The men are needed far more then the truck.

if ladder 26 is a spare... then what is the point of doing driver training on it. if ladder 25 is out of service the career man will be driving it, correct? i see a difference in opinion of what the exact purpose is of this second ladder. i believe that volunteers should have the ability to respond in as the second due ladder in certain situations (ie multiple calls in district, M/A, special call). i agree that you need the membership prior to being able to put the truck into service, but it should be explored.

where is 242steve on this one???

Calling it a spare maybe a matter of symentics but that is the term we use. When the volunteers do become qualified they will be able to drive just like they did in the past. 242steve always seems to miss the good stuff

Big difference between driving it and operating it......I hate to burst your bubble but.....It's not rocket science to "fly the stick", this is a small wheel base rig, no pump on it, with a pre piped water way...no big deal it should be very user friendly.

On another note the volunteers cant take an engine and ladder not manned by the paid guys to an alarm?

It may not be rocket science but it is not like driving your car to the store either. You are dealing with a top heavy vehicle which creates a different approach to driving. How about emergency operation in the case of mechenical break down, short jacking the truck, safety overrides, and any other issue that may arise.

They are qualifying to drive and operate the rig. It will respond to as a second ladder to all schools and large structures when a list is completed. This info came directly from a Warden of the department. You can say whatever you want, but the vollies are getting active and people will just have to deal with it.

Again there has been talk about responding additional apparatus for sometime know, to date that is all it has been. You can and do say whatever you want, but the fact is while there are some active members they in no way amount to what they did "in the day". I give the active guys lots of credit they carry a big burden on their shoulders and do the very best with what they have. A handful of guys does not provide for sufficent manpower to man two pieces of equipment.

The volunteers when qualified will operate this truck no doubt. We will all have to wait and see how things end up.

On a side note if I offended any active member from Rye I apoligize it was not my intention. It just bothers me when a has been comes on and flaps his gums like he knows it all. Stick with Port Chester where you are a member and leave Rye to Rye.

[TBarnum 2]

Well Turk's post pretty much sums it up.

[x242Steve 1]

Lucky-Truckie, I agree that "turk" is spot-on, but since you called me and told me to "go check out EMTBRavo", I feel a need to post also

where is 242steve on this one???

You rang, Joe?

Ok here's the deal...

"turk182", "Lucky-Truckie" and "beavis" are correct. AT THE CURRENT MOMENT, Ladder 26 is a "spare rig" because there are no firematically qualified volunteer drivers. What I mean by that is that we do have one member who is authorized and experienced to DRIVE and train DRIVERS on the truck, due to his job as a Senior Mechanic with the City, his rank of ex-Captain, and his previous experience driving ex-L26. However we currently have zero volunteer members who are FULLY qualified to drive and operate it (i.e. run the aerial device).

In the future, an ideal plan would be to have L26 added to the run cards on certain alarms, and also to have it available for stand-bys for neighboring towns. There are multiple factors that have greatly slowed down efforts to make these ideas become reality. Multiple people and entities are at fault for the fact that we are WAY behind in driver training. Seeing as I am the Truck Officer for the rig in question (as 2nd LT of the Ladder Company) I often feel helpless, but I keep TRYING to get things to happen. However, I am not going to use this post to get into the multi-faceted issues that are involved.

Also, this is NOT a Paid/Volunteer issue in any way, shape or form. The City of Rye owns two ladder trucks, one is currently first due, and one is currently in reserve status with plans already on paper to train volunteer members as drivers with the end goal of the above-mentioned responses. Several of the career staff have been very helpful to me and have continued to provide guidance and wisdom pertaining to the issues we are discussing here.

My associate "turk" puts it very well:

When the volunteers do become qualified they will be able to drive just like they did in the past.

I will continue to bust my hump and bust various other people's stones until we get qualified. I, however, am just one man.

Seth, you point out staffing issues... Just like many other combination departments in the area, we have volunteer staffing problems. We have an entire committee and a good chunk of money devoted to a campaign to attract more volunteers and also to help us retain them. Third-party research has indicated that one way to retain members is to make sure they feel involved, even when call volume is low... this was one of many reasons for Rye maintaining a second Ladder Truck-- so that we can take people out and train on driving, aerial operation, ground ladder techniques, cutting roofs, etc. without taking our first-due Truck out of service or delaying its response.

Anyhow I am at work right now, so I should get back to the floor. I will try to check on this topic again later, but I don't imagine there is much else to say since every active EMTBravo member from the Rye FD who typically posts about these topics has already spoken their mind. But if you have any pressing questions for me until 2300 hours, you can always call 9-1-1

Oh, and as far as...

242steve always seems to miss the good stuff

... Several fire insurance companies have already asked me not to ever leave town again (For those of you not familiar, seemingly every time I go on vacation, there is a working fire.)

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Peoples LIVES, including other firefighters, depend on the apparatus operator placing the stick PERFECTLY. If you do not operate the stick on a regular basis, or drive the apparatus on a regular basis, then you're not going to be proficient at it, period. It's not as easy as it looks, especially when you have tight streets, trees, power lines, etc everywhere.....not to mention large, set back houses and institutions. It's a skill, not one that is as easy as it looks, and it's not one that should be taken lightly.

I never said it should be taken lightly .....again I dont know how Rye works, but have the Volunteer companies go out on Sundays, come up with a schedule where each Chauff. to stay qualified must fly the stick, and pre plan ladder placement 2 times a month. Sunday mornings are great as the strret parking conditions are probably at its worst in the am hours. Again it takes practice to anticipate a problem and correct for it, nothing a dedictated person cant handle. Lets not make this into a super hard task because its not, on the other hand if the issue is you need the active volunteers to be at the scene instead of wasting time manning an engine and ladder then just say that like some are.

Also I have alays felt you loose the interest of the Voulunteers in a combo dept. if they do not have their own "dedicated" appartus. Even if they will only use it on certain alarms or mutual aide outside the distrcit (alot of combo depts. have the volunteers go out of town keeping the paid memebrs to protect the district) Whats the harm in having them man the ladder on a brush or dumpster fire if the paid guys are taking an engine? Gets them involved more. JMO

[turk182 37]

Here We Go Again,turned into paid/volley issue again. :angry: Nobody wins. Because you cannot change things in your town or how you operate on this forum. All this ever does is give the people who run this forum a headache. Just my two cent.

This is about as far from a volley/paid thing as is possible. Both sides are on the same page. I completely understand the vols. desire to operate the ladder it is one of the fun things we get to do. At the same time I think and hope the vols. understand my desire for them to respond to the fire and not stand by with a truck that may very well not be needed. While neither may agree 100% with the other we are non the less on the same page. It is not a prefect system but at least we know what we have. For me this was solely about someone from another department coming on here and saying things that are less then the truthful.

[Guest]

This is about as far from a volley/paid thing as is possible. Both sides are on the same page. I completely understand the vols. desire to operate the ladder it is one of the fun things we get to do. At the same time I think and hope the vols. understand my desire for them to respond to the fire and not stand by with a truck that may very well not be needed. While neither may agree 100% with the other we are non the less on the same page. It is not a prefect system but at least we know what we have. For me this was solely about someone from another department coming on here and saying things that are less then the truthful.

Well I understand why people get upset when everytime something comes up with a "combo" dept it is automatically thought to be a "paid/vol" war. I am a Vol Lt. in a "combo" dept in Dutchess County. And everytime something happens its allways stated that its a war when its not. I am glad to hear that a dept is trying to get its volunteers more active again. I have been an officer for 9 years and a firefighter for 15. Morale is the biggest thing needed to get volunteers and retain them. Sometimes the smallest thing will make a volunteer feel like they belong. And yes this includes being trained to drive a a piece of fire equip. Yes it is important for them to understand that it is more then just driving, but at the same time it will help retain the membership. I also understand that you dont want the needed manpower to be sitting at the firehouse, when they could be at the scene. In my station if all of the rigs have been dispatched to a call then no member is to be at the station. If it is a single engine response then standby at the station is permitted. We also communicate on our private channel on if manpower is needed. Well i just thought I would chime in on the "combo" thing since I do have experince in this area.

[Danger 160]

I am a Vol Lt. in a "combo" dept in Dutchess County.

rrrrrrreallly?

[Guest]

rrrrrrreallly?

[/quote

YOU DIDNT KNOW ILL BE BACK IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS...i THOUGHT EVERYONE KNEW I WAS COMING BACK

[Danger 160]

YOU DIDNT KNOW ILL BE BACK IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS...i THOUGHT EVERYONE KNEW I WAS COMING BACK

I knew you were coming back, I just didn't know they made you lieutenant already, I'll go take my shield off now!