Aerial Apparatus Safety

[Guest]

...and if your district has that many lines covering the fronts of houses and businesses that you cant get a ladder, even a ground ladder, than your utility people need to think "Underground" wires.

I totally agree with that. I can only assume they don't because it would be prohibitively expensive. If they did it would make my life a lot easier and perhaps longer, and I'm all for that. But the situation is what it is.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

This discussion is filling everyones heads with the thoughts of power lines and ladder placements, and the dangers of not trusting ANY kind of line PERIOD....and this is a GOOD THING! Maybe in the future we will not see so many LODD due to electrocution and thats fine in my book.

xfirefighter484x, dont let them stop you from doing this. This has to be done so a lesson is learned and the fallen bretheren are not forgotten. Good topic and I support it.

Safety First

Thank you for seeing the ultimate light at the end of my post!!! The message appears to have not fallen only upon deaf ears!!!

My mission this year, is to pass on to everyone I can, all the information I have learned, what little that may be, sometimes, it takes an unbiased eye to sit back, and eye things over!!!

Thank you for having some faith in me guys!!

Edited January 11, 2008 by xfirefighter484x

[xfirefighter484x 234]

You can see the picture here, it has been on this site since it happened. Do these individuals who run the below site have any credibility? Do they get a pass, and we do not?

http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/

It is on the home page - the same page with a picture of Moe, Curly and Larry.

Thank you FFNick. Just as an FYI, where do you think I got my info/pictures??

The Secret List.

Lets hope that I can spread my knowledge along with theirs/their message!!

[Bnechis 3,961]

OSHA is federal government. How can BFD not fall under their jurisdiction?

The stiger Act of 1970 is what created FED OSHA. The law is to protect workers in the private sector (not government). States were given the option to be "State Plan" states.

If the State wanted to keep the feds out, they had to agree to enforce the law on private and public sector.

The following States are full plan states:

Alaska, Arizona, Californa, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Mexico, No Carolina,

Oregon, So Carolina, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, & Wyoming

The following states agreed to split to program with the feds:

Conn

NJ

NY

They cover the public,and the FEDS cover the private.

The fine structure for private sector can be very high and even with reductions commonly is in the $100,000's

The fine structure for public sector is often a joke. But it may open the door for major litigation and civil judgements. Since most governmental liability laws dont cover the gov if it has broken the law.

As I see it the real issue is not "OSHA is the LAW" to worry about.....but the laws of physics. The fines for breaking those law can not be negotiated.

[Guest]

I posted this in the other thread, but I think it's appropriate here too:

Here's my wire situation:

images from Google streetview.

How do I throw a ladder to that building if there is someone hanging out a window and not violate the 10 ft rule?

Lets add a few trees to make my life more difficult

The sidewalk is about 6ft wide, so the building itself isn't even respecting the 10ft rule. OSHA should fine the bulidings.

How about this one:

That's a street with 6 triple deckers on it. I don't think the street is even 10 ft wide and there are wires running down it.

[Guest FFNick]

Barry - Thanks - That is what I wanted to say about OSHA, you nailed it. And yes - in reality the fine is not the issue, but the consequences of the laws of physics.

[x129K 1,393]

Rhinebeck's placard is shinier.........

[Guest]

So i see we had about 5 posts on the subject while the funeral was going on. Thats nice. To the guy from Mass, who posted the pictures, if you have time and cant figure out how to ladder those buildings, shame on you. To the guy from Bridgeport, Britney sells papers, dead firemen do not! And if you honestly look to the post and daily news for your sources of news and information you are being misled about 90% of the time. No one said we should not address this issue. Myself and one other poster stated it should wait as a matter of respect till after the funeral. Ive been all over for funerals, when I am not working and can travel I am their, the same way these guys are in NYC for our funerals. Dont give me the side job excuse either, I didnt do mine on Tuesday so I could be in Staten Italy.

Most guys here read the Billy G stuff like its the gospel. Have you guys met him? He needs to lose about 60 lbs or he will be taking the old dirt nap a lot sooner than he hopes to. Its great that he states the obvious and pools the 'you cant make this up' stories for other's to read. But I highly doubt he was down that many hallways in Great Neck NY as a volunteer with a full time job else where.

[Guest]

So i see we had about 5 posts on the subject while the funeral was going on. Thats nice. To the guy from Mass, who posted the pictures, if you have time and cant figure out how to ladder those buildings, shame on you.

Oh, I've laddered them many times. So you can do it and not come within 10ft of any wire? Enlighten me.

[Guest FFNick]

Sounds like you've got it all figured out, roofsopen. Thanks for the enlightenment. Should I read your stuff like its gospel? Billy G is Billy G, another point of information - nothing more, nothing less.

You don't know me, and I don't know you. I've made no excuses here, nor do I feel that I need to. This is only a forum.

I see your point and I do not need you to see mine - you've clearly missed it. That is all. I, or anyone else here for that matter, certainly do not need you to judge me or them from the anonimity of the internet, or Cupcake, NY.

Have a nice day.

[Guest]

You must be a kitchen lawyer too, cause that made no sense what so ever. Dont worry, if you ever god forbid get hurt or killed at work ill defend your honor by pointing out the tastelessness of Monday Morning QB'ing your injury/death till after you family has had the opportunity to celebrate your life.

[firemoose827 324]

This is what the difference is between guys that crawl down hallways with the same guys day in and day out and the guys that dont know who is going to show up. We have a respect for one another.

I have to add one more thing about this comment...First, to say that we have no respect for one another because we dont "Crawl down the hallway with the same guys..." thats disrespectful.

I dont give a flying crap if your paid or not, we ALL should show respect for EVERY FIREFIGHTER...not just because we work with each other everyday. I realise you build stronger bonds and friendships with those people than I might with some of my volunteer bretheren, but I show due respect to every firefighter...that is untill they abuse it.

Its a shame most of us are still playing this petty paid vs. volly thing...what happened to "Brotherhood"? "Family"? Nowhere do I read about these things does it also say, in fine print..." The Brotherhood of firefighting...only for paid departments, not including those jolly volly types that pretend to fight fire..."

I dont mean to disrespect you brother, Im just tired of being told I dont deserve to respect, or know how to respect, my bretheren untill I work with them everyday at every fire.

[post4031 16]

Nate

"My mission this year, is to pass on to everyone I can, all the information I have learned, what little that may be, sometimes, it takes an unbiased eye to sit back, and eye things over!!!"

You got that right!!

LOL LOL LOL

[Guest]

I have to add one more thing about this comment...First, to say that we have no respect for one another because we dont "Crawl down the hallway with the same guys..." thats disrespectful.

I dont give a flying crap if your paid or not, we ALL should show respect for EVERY FIREFIGHTER...not just because we work with each other everyday. I realise you build stronger bonds and friendships with those people than I might with some of my volunteer bretheren, but I show due respect to every firefighter...that is untill they abuse it.

Its a shame most of us are still playing this petty paid vs. volly thing...what happened to "Brotherhood"? "Family"? Nowhere do I read about these things does it also say, in fine print..." The Brotherhood of firefighting...only for paid departments, not including those jolly volly types that pretend to fight fire..."

I dont mean to disrespect you brother, Im just tired of being told I dont deserve to respect, or know how to respect, my bretheren untill I work with them everyday at every fire.

Forgive me for not just picking out the part i wish to address, only using one hand is tough. I was pointing to the fact that where I work, we would never go out on a public forum and second guess the actions of another dead brother untill the official results came down. We do this for a living, some of us got lucky, some of us enjoy the adrenaline, some of us like helping on ems, none of us took this job to get killed to be second guessed by someone behind a computer. If your loved one was in a car accident entirely their fault would you want a bunch of people who were not there discussing what they did wrong? No one would. This is not a volunteer vs paid bash, not at all. Its the difference that you see when you work with people who do this for a living and those who do it for other reasons, although i like to believe that the guys that do it for free would love to do it for money. I am on both sides of this, i get paid and I do it for free. The guys I work with are nothing like the guys I volunteer with. No power trips and no I am better than you's at work. We all know that one another is capable of doing the job, not always the case when I roll up to a volunteer call. Now you can argue that its just where I volunteer, but its not, its everywhere.

The main difference is people ask me what i do for a living I tell them I am a fireman, other people say I am an acct, or a teacher. Our mutual respect for one another comes from not only being firemen but from knowing that at any time at work we could be the next one to get killed, we have no choice to respond. Its something you have to be in to understand.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Nate

"My mission this year, is to pass on to everyone I can, all the information I have learned, what little that may be, sometimes, it takes an unbiased eye to sit back, and eye things over!!!"

You got that right!!

LOL LOL LOL

Well, I know I do not know everything, but what are ya tryin to say Scott??

[xfirefighter484x 234]

...none of us took this job to get killed to be second guessed by someone behind a computer. If your loved one was in a car accident entirely their fault would you want a bunch of people who were not there discussing what they did wrong? No one would.

I have nothing to "hide" by sitting behind a computer. I am always more than happy to have a REAL roundtable, or personal discussion. This forum is just readily available, and reaches a larger audience faster.

If you really have such a personal problem with me, feel free to PM me, we can set up a meeting and discuss this, and you might see that we really aren't so different.

Also, yes, if a family member made a mistake, and I had the opportunity to prevent someone else from dying by making the same mistake, I would be more than happy to discuss it in a public forum.

[Guest]

I have nothing to "hide" by sitting behind a computer. I am always more than happy to have a REAL roundtable, or personal discussion. This forum is just readily available, and reaches a larger audience faster.

If you really have such a personal problem with me, feel free to PM me, we can set up a meeting and discuss this, and you might see that we really aren't so different.

Also, yes, if a family member made a mistake, and I had the opportunity to prevent someone else from dying by making the same mistake, I would be more than happy to discuss it in a public forum.

Until you have been in a fire and been afraid that you might not come out of it, you should keep your mouth shut. You know nothing of the subject. I dont know who you are, but being that you are a day older than my new uniform pants you should have nothing to say cause you have nothing contribute. You (including those that comment on this event) have no idea who reads it and who uses information that some of us have privy to, to use against us either in a court of law or an admin hearing. Once again, its something many of you have no idea what you are doing or dealing with. Lawyers have far more time and experience than us in regards to this.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Until you have been in a fire and been afraid that you might not come out of it, you should keep your mouth shut. You know nothing of the subject. I dont know who you are, but being that you are a day older than my new uniform pants you should have nothing to say cause you have nothing contribute. You (including those that comment on this event) have no idea who reads it and who uses information that some of us have privy to, to use against us either in a court of law or an admin hearing. Once again, its something many of you have no idea what you are doing or dealing with. Lawyers have far more time and experience than us in regards to this.

I do not have to defend my actions, knowledge, or experience to anyone who is not willing to actively participate in a calm, collective manner. Everyone has something to contribute, but it takes the right person to sit back, and listen, instead of criticize, criticize, criticize.

[Guest]

Like I said, you have nothing to contribute. Hopefully you will never learn first hand what I have, its truly a humbling emotion to have a friend and co-worker die before you.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Like I said, you have nothing to contribute. Hopefully you will never learn first hand what I have, its truly a humbling emotion to have a friend and co-worker die before you.

Well, that is your opinion, and everyone is entitled to one. Opinions are like.....well, I think we all know that quote. I don't deny it must be a terrible experience to have a co-worker and friend die before you, and no, I would not know what it is like, but this thread has been about fireground and aerial safety, not a point by point criticism of a FF LODD. Please go back and read the topic. Its called Aerial Apparatus Safety. Please contribute accordingly, because you seem to know it all!

[firemoose827 324]

Forgive me for not just picking out the part i wish to address, only using one hand is tough. I was pointing to the fact that where I work, we would never go out on a public forum and second guess the actions of another dead brother untill the official results came down. We do this for a living, some of us got lucky, some of us enjoy the adrenaline, some of us like helping on ems, none of us took this job to get killed to be second guessed by someone behind a computer. If your loved one was in a car accident entirely their fault would you want a bunch of people who were not there discussing what they did wrong? No one would. This is not a volunteer vs paid bash, not at all. Its the difference that you see when you work with people who do this for a living and those who do it for other reasons, although i like to believe that the guys that do it for free would love to do it for money. I am on both sides of this, i get paid and I do it for free. The guys I work with are nothing like the guys I volunteer with. No power trips and no I am better than you's at work. We all know that one another is capable of doing the job, not always the case when I roll up to a volunteer call. Now you can argue that its just where I volunteer, but its not, its everywhere.

The main difference is people ask me what i do for a living I tell them I am a fireman, other people say I am an acct, or a teacher. Our mutual respect for one another comes from not only being firemen but from knowing that at any time at work we could be the next one to get killed, we have no choice to respond. Its something you have to be in to understand.

Well, the other thing I wanted to talk with you about is that I see no one here attempting to bash the brother personally, and if they did I didnt see it and I apologise to you. But what I see here is a bunch of brothers/sisters trying to honor his passing by ensuring no one else goes the same way, and thats by discussing ladder placement around power lines...I didnt see any disrespect to that particular officer who recently passed. What most people dont take into consideration is that these topics go out of sight out of mind untill some tragedy happens somewhere. Than, everyone feels the need to address the topic to help everyone else not go the same way. When I first read the main topic and than eventually posted my opinions I was never even thinking of Captain James Robeson. The initial topic showed a picture of some crazy Ladder placement...not the fire where Captain Robeson Passed. It wasnt untill later that someone posted that picture and commented that the ladder wasnt even in contact with the power lines...thats all I saw.

We are not trying to dishonor him in any way, we are trying to honor him.

And, when I hear the siren go off for a call, I feel the same brotherhood, respect, and dedication to fellow firefighters as you do when your at work. There are some of us volunteers who have more heart and dedication than the others, and take it to higher levels to support fellow firefighters.

Have a great day brother.

Moose

[Guest]

Until you have been in a fire and been afraid that you might not come out of it, you should keep your mouth shut. You know nothing of the subject. I dont know who you are, but being that you are a day older than my new uniform pants you should have nothing to say cause you have nothing contribute. You (including those that comment on this event) have no idea who reads it and who uses information that some of us have privy to, to use against us either in a court of law or an admin hearing. Once again, its something many of you have no idea what you are doing or dealing with. Lawyers have far more time and experience than us in regards to this.

I guess since I have been in several situations where I didn't think I was going to make it out, I (by your qualifications) don't have to keep my mouth shut.

I see your point about the legal ramifications. I guess I was treating this forum as a group of firefighters, I'm new here, perhaps it is more public than I think. These incidents are usually broken down in other public areas, (firefighterclosecalls.com, Fire Engineering etc.) I'm generally for more openness and discussion and progression in the fire service and I think these forums can be an excellent tool to that end.

Also, I think those lawyers are going to know what points to use against us (if it comes to that) whether we discuss mistakes or not. So I think discussing mistakes in the aim of the betterment of the fire service as a whole is what we should be doing.

[helicopper 1,050]

Until you have been in a fire and been afraid that you might not come out of it, you should keep your mouth shut. You know nothing of the subject. I dont know who you are, but being that you are a day older than my new uniform pants you should have nothing to say cause you have nothing contribute. You (including those that comment on this event) have no idea who reads it and who uses information that some of us have privy to, to use against us either in a court of law or an admin hearing. Once again, its something many of you have no idea what you are doing or dealing with. Lawyers have far more time and experience than us in regards to this.

Roof,

I completely understand the emotional nature of your posts as I have been to entirely too many funerals as well. However, it is highly unlikely that any lawyer is going to use this forum as a source of expert testimony - they all know where to get that already.

Nothing being posted in this forum is confidential or directly from the investigation so it is not going to impact anything relating to the case or potential civil/criminal actions. It is a discussion among and between colleagues. Nothing more, nothing less.

There is no "good" time to discuss the circumstances that caused the death of a brother but if we can learn from it, we certainly should so another death or injury can be averted. I know that I've sat in classes and watched the dash cam from police cars where the officer was killed. We've discussed his/her actions and tried to learn from them so we don't make the same mistake again. That's not disrepectful, that's what I would want if something happened to me and someone else could avoid the same situation. Do you write to FOX to complain about video of crashes/pursuits/etc. shown on TV as entertainment? We're not reviewing these situations as entertainment, we're trying to do our jobs more safely!

Take a deep breath, nobody is trying to defame the memory of a fallen brother!

[EMTbravo 312]

Roof,

You know that this forum DOES NOT tolerate personal attacks on other members. I don't want to do this on the thread, but you chose to speak your words on the thread. I understand some of your thoughts, but let's not treat other members of this forum like that. Let's keep things on a mature and professional level, and not drag a thread down into a personal argument. Flaming is NOT TOLERATED, and I'm leaving this up as an example. If I see flaming again, from anyone, it will result in a 30 day suspension from the forum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and thoughts, and to be threatened for expressing them, therefore making other members question whether they should post or not, WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. I hope I am clear. IF YOU HAVE A PERSONAL ISSUE WITH SOMEONE-TAKE IT TO PM!

You don't have to trash or belittle someone to get your thoughts across. There's much better ways.

Thanks to the members who used the "Report Post" feature to bring this to my attention.