Aerial Apparatus Safety

[xfirefighter484x 234]

So as to not completely hijack the Boston thread.

Here you go! Its the LAW!!

There is aggressive placement, then there is dangerous!!!

Just remember, OSHA says 10 feet minimum distance from ANY WIRES!!!

Below is a picture of the setup where the Scranton PA captain died. Remember, he died from electrocution, not because the aerial came into contact with lines, but because the power arc-ed!!

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.sh...S&p_id=9910

1910.333©(3)(i)(A)

When an unqualified person is working in an elevated position near overhead lines, the location shall be such that the person and the longest conductive object he or she may contact cannot come closer to any unguarded, energized overhead line than the following distances:

1910.333©(3)(i)(A)(1)

For voltages to ground 50kV or below - 10 feet (305 cm);

1910.333©(3)(i)(A)(2)

For voltages to ground over 50kV - 10 feet (305 cm) plus 4 inches (10 cm) for every 10kV over 50kV.

While many find it necessary to try and circumvent things that are out there to protect ourselves, not only is it just in our best interests, it is BLATANT VIOLATION OF THE LAW!

Edited January 9, 2008 by xfirefighter484x

[Guest FFNick]

Thanks for moving this discussion to a thread of its own.

The question that I have, and it has been discussed in my FD at length is:

Who is or is not a "qualified" person, and who determines it?

1910.333©(3)(i)(A)

When an unqualified person is working in an elevated position near overhead lines

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Thanks for moving this discussion to a thread of its own.

The question that I have, and it has been discussed in my FD at length is:

Who is or is not a "qualified" person, and who determines it?

1910.333©(3)(i)(A)

When an unqualified person is working in an elevated position near overhead lines

No problem. I felt bad for hijacking it going in the wrong direction.

The way I see it, if you are not a telephone/cable/electrician, you are not qualified to be that close to any overhead wires!!

[Guest FFNick]

I might agree with you, because that makes sense. However, the law does not spell out who is "qualified" and who is "unqualified" so far as I can tell. Also in the standardd, this chart can be found.

TABLE S-5 - APPROACH DISTANCES FOR QUALIFIED

EMPLOYEES - ALTERNATING CURRENT

______________________________________________________________

|

Voltage range (phase to phase) | Minimum approach distance

__________________________________|___________________________

|

300V and less ....................| Avoid Contact

Over 300V, not over 750V .........| 1 ft. 0 in. (30.5 cm).

Over 750V, not over 2kV ..........| 1 ft. 6 in. (46 cm).

Over 2kV, not over 15kV ..........| 2 ft. 0 in. (61 cm).

Over 15kV, not over 37kV .........| 3 ft. 0 in. (91 cm).

Over 37kV, not over 87.5kV .......| 3 ft. 6 in. (107 cm).

Over 87.5kV, not over 121kV ......| 4 ft. 0 in. (122 cm).

Over 121kV, not over 140kV .......| 4 ft. 6 in. (137 cm).

As is this:

1910.333©(3)(iii)(A)(3)

If the equipment is an aerial lift insulated for the voltage involved, and if the work is performed by a qualified person, the clearance (between the uninsulated portion of the aerial lift and the power line) may be reduced to the distance given in Table S-5.

Now, what degree of "insulated" is your apparatus?

Here's a section of an OSHA interpretation about FD's (although it states private and contractual FD's)

When there is uncertainty, OSHA would encourage employers to apply the more protective standard. An employer who does this will have addressed the hazard and is not likely to be cited.

Edited January 9, 2008 by FFNick

[Guest]

Now you've done it. You've made me resort to math.

using: http://www.cirris.com/testing/voltage/arc.html

at 12000v the maximum arc distance in air is 2.726 inches (yes, I realize it says calculator is only good to 3000, and DC are those 12000v lines DC? not sure I think they are but either way a good approximation.) So for safety's sake multiply it by a factor of 10 and add some, so 3 ft is plenty and that's the really high voltage lines. At 110v you have to make contact.

That 10 ft number is the complete idiot proof number. So although we are not line workers, nor are we complete idiots.

The truck on the D side in the first picture is at least 15 ft away from the 12kv lines for a safety factor of ~66 to 1. Good enough for me since I think the bridges I drive on everyday are 1.5-3 to 1

Which reminds me of another point. By far the most statistically dangerous thing you do, even if you place your bucket closer than 10 ft of any wire while at work is drive to work. So think about that and take the same types of "universal precautions" you do while driving that you do at work. Wear your seat-belt, buy a safe car with good airbags and that handles well, spend the extra money on good tires, take evasive/safety driving lessons, etc.

Edited January 9, 2008 by firewrx612

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Ok, I think the point you are missing is this.

OSHA = THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, more of those "universal precautions", as with driving. Like the Speed Limit, is law also. And what happens if a cop pulls you over for speeding, and breaking the law. Will you argue the statistics, and pull out your calculator telling him the percentage of accidents per capita or other technical mumbo jumbo?

As the cop laughs, hands you the ticket, and walks back to his cruiser.

[Guest]

Ok, I think the point you are missing is this.

OSHA = THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, more of those "universal precautions", as with driving. Like the Speed Limit, is law also. And what happens if a cop pulls you over for speeding, and breaking the law. Will you argue the statistics, and pull out your calculator telling him the percentage of accidents per capita or other technical mumbo jumbo?

As the cop laughs, hands you the ticket, and walks back to his cruiser.

BFD doesn't fall under OSHA.

If the law gets in the way of me making a rescue and it's a stupid law made to protect idiots from themselves, and I'm not endangering myself or others to perform said rescue I have no problem breaking it. We're supposed to come to a complete stop at all intersections and red lights while responding, but if you can see all the way down the street and no one is coming, you don't roll through it?

Edited January 9, 2008 by firewrx612

[Guest FFNick]

Well, the other BFD - Bridgeport, technically, does. However - what does "IT'S THE LAW" really mean.

OSHA fines cities, corporations,etc. The cities, corporations then appeal the fines,and cry poverty. OSHA says, ok, let's see your ability to pay - and for example, Bridgeport, CT, has NO ability to pay. So, the fine gets knocked down, Bridgeport says, Gee, we're really sorry, and we pinky swear to never do it again. OSHA says, cool, and away they go to do an unannounced audit of a company with really deep pockets.

Greenwich CT had a fire a few years ago, and some FF's got hurt - can't remember the particulars, but guys bailed out of upper floors, and some got pretty extensive injuries. OSHA fined Greenwich, they appealed, and had the penalty knocked down to like $500. True.

So, yes, I get my speeding ticket, and regardless of my ability to pay, I pay. Bridgeport, on the other hand, that's another story.

Now, after all this babbling, I agree with you. Keep away from the wires, and you won't get hurt. I hear ya. I also got to work, and do what I have to do, almost at my own expense.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

BFD doesn't fall under OSHA.

OSHA is federal government. How can BFD not fall under their jurisdiction?

I am not looking to make enemies here. My main points are to bring awareness to these problems of complacency.

Think about the brother in Scranton. A terrible loss to our most noble of professions. A 26 year veteran, and yet all it takes is complacency, and/or one moment of not thinking, and look what happens!

Its the attitude of "I do what I have to do, to hell with the consequences", and "It'll never happen to me".

9 days into 2008 and we're already at 5 LODDs.

Edited January 9, 2008 by xfirefighter484x

[Guest FFNick]

No offense taken, brother, not at all. It's a healthy conversation. Hard to convey that thru typing (atleast I do)

I can not speak for Boston, but I do know that somehow FDNY is/was the same. They somehow were/are OSHA exempt.

Hopefully someone can fill us in on how that works - Brothers from Boston?

Also, keep in mind that public employees is some states are covered differently - if I am not mistaken, NY has PESH - Public Employee's Safety & Health, and in CT, we have ConnOSHA. The rules/enforcement/fines are different. Particularly the fines. Years ago there was a fatality in White Plains, and I know that there was some controversy over fines and enforcement. Again, maybe someone can fill us in.

Now it seems as if this topic has gotten off topic....

Sorry.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Also, keep in mind that public employees is some states are covered differently - if I am not mistaken, NY has PESH - Public Employee's Safety & Health, and in CT, we have ConnOSHA. The rules/enforcement/fines are different. Particularly the fines. Years ago there was a fatality in White Plains, and I know that there was some controversy over fines and enforcement. Again, maybe someone can fill us in.

Not to worry. I am happy this topic is going somewhere other than just the normal BS sessions some end up as. This is, as you said, a healthy, informative conversation.

NYS PESH is OSHA, just specific to NYS. They are a division of the NYS Dept. of Labor. OSHA allowed states to either let them be the safety ones, or for the states to run their own 'version'.

PESH takes all OSHA standards, and can only make them MORE stringent. THey enforce all OSHA laws, some as OSHA states, some a little bit more intensely.

[Guest]

OSHA is federal government. How can BFD not fall under their jurisdiction?

I am not looking to make enemies here. My main points are to bring awareness to these problems of complacency.

Think about the brother in Scranton. A terrible loss to our most noble of professions. A 26 year veteran, and yet all it takes is complacency, and/or one moment of not thinking, and look what happens!

Its the attitude of "I do what I have to do, to hell with the consequences", and "It'll never happen to me".

9 days into 2008 and we're already at 5 LODDs.

I'll research the answer to the OSHA question. I've been told we don't fall under OSHA several times, I've been told why but I honestly don't remember. But I'll find out and get back to you.

You'll never be an enemy of mine. We're just discussing a difference of opinion.

The Scranton incident was completely reckless and insane. I would never come that close to a 12kv line. Fine stay 10 ft away from those, but staying 10 ft away from CATV is Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overkill.

I understand complacency but this is not it. Complacency is saying "that can't happen to me I'm too good". I'm not saying to hell with the consequences. I know the risks, I was a physics major so I understand the behavior of electricity, I know what it can do. I'm not being complacent. I always wear my seat-belt, I always fully bunker up and mask up and bring all my tools in even after we been to the same central station alarm 5 times in a day. That 6th time could be a fire, I know that.

I'll post some pics of the power line situation in my district and you guys will see that if we followed the 10 ft rule with ground ladders and aerials, we may as well not even have them. We'd never make a rescue over ladders or vent a roof. We may as well sell them as scrap. Where as if you just take a few minutes to learn what lines carry what voltage and how far away you need to be from various lines, you can do your job safely and effectively.

[Guest FFNick]

The Scranton incident was completely reckless and insane. I would never come that close to a 12kv line. Fine stay 10 ft away from those, but staying 10 ft away from CATV is Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overkill.

I agree with all you've said, I would just add that in fairness to those in Scranton, there were some terrible miscommunications on the fire scene from what the preliminary reports say.

SFD was told that power was off, and they took that to mean that power was off to the block, when in reality, the power company meant power was off to the structure.

Stay safe.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I agree with all you've said, I would just add that in fairness to those in Scranton, there were some terrible miscommunications on the fire scene from what the preliminary reports say.

SFD was told that power was off, and they took that to mean that power was off to the block, when in reality, the power company meant power was off to the structure.

Stay safe.

Thank you for that clarification. I had not heard that update until you mentioned it!!

[Guest]

I agree with all you've said, I would just add that in fairness to those in Scranton, there were some terrible miscommunications on the fire scene from what the preliminary reports say.

SFD was told that power was off, and they took that to mean that power was off to the block, when in reality, the power company meant power was off to the structure.

Stay safe.

Ah ok, that's less insane then. My bad.

[Guest FFNick]

Thanx for posting the Aerial placard. Pretty cut and dry.

[NJMedic 96]

OSHA = Law

That may be true but the threat that OSHA will dicover violations and fine the entity with responsibility is a empty threat for the most part.

Look at what happend recently in Charleston. The City was fined by OSHA for actions related to the death of nine firefighters a grand total of $9325 or $1036 per firefighter.....big deal....and that is after being adjustment downward by OSHA. The fine Charleston received in and of it self is not going to change behavior. This might be alot of money to me or you but a dime in the bucket for a city the size of Charleston.

A friend of mine says change will not occur until there is pain. I would hope the pain the fire department has experienced will do more to encourage change then any OSHA fine will. At the very least the plantiffs in the civil suits will use the OSHA report to justify a hugh settlement that will cause

pain of another matter.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

OSHA = Law

That may be true but the threat that OSHA will dicover violations and fine the entity with responsibility is a empty threat for the most part.

Look at what happend recently in Charleston. The City was fined by OSHA for actions related to the death of nine firefighters a grand total of $9325 or $1036 per firefighter.....big deal....and that is after being adjustment downward by OSHA. The fine Charleston received in and of it self is not going to change behavior. This might be alot of money to me or you but a dime in the bucket for a city the size of Charleston.

A friend of mine says change will not occur until there is pain. I would hope the pain the fire department has experienced will do more to encourage change then any OSHA fine will. At the very least the plantiffs in the civil suits will use the OSHA report to justify a hugh settlement that will cause

pain of another matter.

The law is just the beginning. From there can always stem civil suits. At least once it is established that a violation of the law occurred, and if someone gets injured for killed from such actions, civil actions are sure to ensue.

Look at NFPA 1403 and Lairdsville!

I do agree that what happened after Charleston is an atrocity, and an embarrassment, in my eyes, to the sacrifices made!!

[Guest]

I bet that was written by a lawyer and not a firefighter.

Our SOP's say 10 ft (from electrical lines not all wires)as well. I'm away of that distance as a standard. I know it's in print and I know it says it on the back of the apparatus. I don't dispute that. I'm saying it's overkill in most situations.

Too me it looks like the ladder on the D side of that 1 1/2 story is close enough to 10 ft away from ELECTRICAL lines, to be within reason (looks to be about 6 ft or so).

Edited January 10, 2008 by firewrx612

[xfirefighter484x 234]

This is ###### tasteless. The Capt from Scranton isnt even buried yet and this is on here. A disgrace. We can learn from this AFTER his funeral. I wish I was not working tomorrow so I could attend, but groups are groups. Perhaps the poster could have removed the photo till after the fact, but its already here.

No respect.

I guess I am a heartless tasteless SOB. When I posted the same sort of thing about the FF/EMT from Empire who perished (discussions about 24+ hour shifts for EMS agencies posted the next day), I said it should have waited, and yet I was told that it was not too early to be discussing it.

So here we are, me being the one to say its too early to talk about a LODD issue, and now I am the one being accused of being tasteless, and insensitive.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Wheres the line????

I think it is a bit too soon to be bringing this subject up (or too late, depending on how you look at it). I recommend putting it to the side for at least a week, let things settle down a bit.

Just my 2 cents.

Its not to early ........ I mean no disrespect to this guy or his family.

I have no issue talking about this now. Its not like we are holding up signs at xxxxxx's funeral, or standing outside someone's door accusing them. It is the web, and it is what it is. That being said, I guess I'll offer my thoughts.

Edited January 15, 2008 by jack10562

[Guest]

This is what the difference is between guys that crawl down hallways with the same guys day in and day out and the guys that dont know who is going to show up. We have a respect for one another. All the FDNY sites were shut down yesterday for the funeral. We use bad language and we spit venom at one another, but when it comes down to it we are all the same. thats what sets us apart. Till you have been to a fire where someone you work with has been killed you will never know what it is like.

I didnt read every post, i just scrolled through and saw that photo that WAS removed from two other sites I read and contribute to daily, it was removed cause it was tasteless and is not for others to judge the actions that killed a man.

[Guest]

Why the ambiguous waiting period? I don't think any disrespect is intended. Why not learn from peoples mistakes as they happen. It would be a shame if someone died tomorrow doing the same thing and didn't learn because someone was afraid to offend another. Better to offend someone who is overly sensitive than be dead.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Why the ambiguous waiting period? I don't think any disrespect is intended. Why not learn from peoples mistakes as they happen. It would be a shame if someone died tomorrow doing the same thing and didn't learn because someone was afraid to offend another. Better to offend someone who is overly sensitive than be dead.

Thank you. You beat me to saying exactly what I was going to say.

Nowhere were there any images of any dead bodies, the person/people involved. There is merely a picture of an apparatus set up in a precarious position, that fit in with the topic on hand.

I find it repulsive that I be called names for trying to bring attention to safety issues that might help save another brothers life!

Also no, I have NOT been at a fire where a brother has been killed, and I may not have as much experience as many other people on here, but you know, I find myself to be lucky I haven't had to go through that, and keep it in my mind, to try and prevent such things!

[16fire5 693]

Roof's Open I can't agree with you more. I don't think they've been humbled yet and thats the difference. Being in a bad situation when you thought you knew alot humbles you. I'm all for learning from the mistakes of others but the tone of the comments about a veteran professional fire officer make me sick. The fact is when they are responding to this post and yours I'll be in Scranton paying my respects.

[Guest FFNick]

With all due respect, gentlemen, I disagree with you, about the picture. I learned from this situation that the utilities were not shut off to the block, only to the structure. Some people here did not know that. Important to know and talk about. It's an assumption that I have seen a couple of times.

You can see the picture here, it has been on this site since it happened. Do these individuals who run the below site have any credibility? Do they get a pass, and we do not?

http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/

It is on the home page - the same page with a picture of Moe, Curly and Larry.

I've been to a couple of fires in my day, and I've seen some bad things happen to my members, so no need to pass judgement here on me.

Is it wrong to talk about it in the firehouse then? Give it a week 'til it cools off?

When the FDNY brother passed away, what was on the front page of both the Post and Daily News the following day?

Britney.

If we don't talk about it - who will?

And yes, I was making this post while some of you and some of my brothers, were in Scranton paying their respect.

Edited January 10, 2008 by FFNick

[Guest]

I don't think it is disrespectful at all to talk about mistakes people make. Quite the opposite. If one person (or more) can be saved by learning from his mistake then he will not have died in vain, and I think that is the ultimate respect you can pay. I bet if you could ask Capt. Robeson whether he'd would rather have 10,000 guys show up at his funeral or ONE person be saved by learning from his mistake, I bet he would choose the latter.

Saying that he made a mistake, is not disrespectful. Good people sometimes make mistakes (I know I have).

I don't know if you were referring to me, but I resent the insinuation that I'm not veteran enough to comment on other's mistakes, or that I don't have respect for other firefighters. After 10 years on a big city department, I've been in plenty of sticky situations. I don't know what constitutes a veteran to you guys (16Fire5 and roofsopen). Let me know when I reach that status so I can learn from others mistakes and comment on them.

Edited January 10, 2008 by firewrx612

[jayhalsey 6]

Well, I read the entire thread so far. And in all honesty, I only see one post that is disrepectful. And it doesn't disrespect the firefighter that died. In fact, not one post in this thread disrepespects or does anything to cheapen his sacrifice. I see posts about what department SOP/Sog's are, posts about who governs that type of statute, losts of posts about osha, etc. But nothing remotely negative about what happened in Pennsylvania. Firefighting is a life and death business. All firefighters know that. Why shouldn't we try to lessen the number of deaths? Why shouldn't we discuss what happened, what went wrong, what went right? I feel that the time to do this is now. While the incident is still fresh in peoples minds. I understand some people are sensitive, and believe that talking about an incident where someone has died before a certain undetermined amount of time has elapsed is disrespectful. What I feel is disrespectful is NOT talking about the incident. NOT learning from the incident. Do you really think that, as some one so eloquently put it, "guys that crawl down hallways with the same guys day in and day out" would want their brothers to not discuss what happened to them rather than learn from what happened, so that perhaps someone else may not perish? I really dont think thats a hard question to answer.

[firemoose827 324]

Just a few things to add here...my opinions, not in any way meant to bring a pack of wild dogs on me.

First, when I went through my training I was told that the CATV and phone wires could very well be hot due to numerous reasons like "False Neutral" phenomenon that I saw a video and learned about when I took my Electrical Fire Cause Determination I & II at the academy. Point Im making here is anything is possible. I treat all lines as "Live", and if your district has that many lines covering the fronts of houses and businesses that you cant get a ladder, even a ground ladder, than your utility people need to think "Underground" wires.

Second, I have said it once before and I will say it again. I dont see discussing the recent events of a LODD as being disrespectful to the fallen brother/sister. PEOPLE, its real SIMPLE here, if there is a safety lesson to be learned by my brothers/sisters from my LODD than I OPENLY ENCOURAGE it!!!!! Discuss...Learn...Dont let it happen to anyone else!! We are not disrespecting anyone here. As far as I see it all of you complainers trying to act chivalrous by "Defending" our fallen brother are the ones being disrespectful. We are in a dangerous profession, and we NEED to be constantly learning from everything we can to reduce the amount of LODD we are seeing. If you want to sit and pout and cry and ignore what happened so be it, but dont you dare tell the rest of us to disrespect our brethren and not pass on the lessons learned so we can make it so their passing is not in vain. This discussion is filling everyones heads with the thoughts of power lines and ladder placements, and the dangers of not trusting ANY kind of line PERIOD....and this is a GOOD THING! Maybe in the future we will not see so many LODD due to electrocution and thats fine in my book.

xfirefighter484x, dont let them stop you from doing this. This has to be done so a lesson is learned and the fallen bretheren are not forgotten. Good topic and I support it.

Safety First

PS

As a Post Script here, I must have posted the same time that jayhalsey did, I dont want to take from his post and I wanted to say exactly what he said. Perfectly said brother.

Edited January 10, 2008 by moosecfd368

[jayhalsey 6]

PS

As a Post Script here, I must have posted the same time that jayhalsey did, I dont want to take from his post and I wanted to say exactly what he said. Perfectly said brother.

Was just thinking the same exact thing about your post, Moose.