Boston's Aggresive Aerial Placement

[x635 4,066]

I know I brought up this topic a few years ago, but I'm always impressed when I see the photos such as the one taken by Doug Boudrow at the recent 7th alarm in Boston.

At any fire scene in Boston, you always see mulitple ground ladders thrown, and mostly every aerial ladder comapny on the scene has their stick in the air, no matter where they have to position it. I don't know if it's traditional, SOP, training or all of the above, all I know is that it's very impressive that they make the most of their resources.

It's much better then at a multiple alarm around here, where most of the responding truck companies line the street away from the scene, sticks snug in the bed and all the ground ladders untouched.

Anyways, check out the photo. Impressive:

http://www.pbase.com/doug55579/image/91056149/original

[TL2L31 8]

It isnt going to roll to either side!

[jack10562 414]

At a lot of jobs I saw, mainly in Yonkers and NewRochelle, they put their ladder trucks into use at almost every working structure fire.

In many cases they drove the rig onto the front lawn in order to get the aerial up on the structure, sometimes under power, CATV and phone cables.

(I'll look for pics)

Here's a good one from Thornwood, on Kensico Road with Pleasantville mutual aid ladder:

Edited January 3, 2008 by jack10562

[Guest]

I know there was another thread on here some where a while back on Boston’s aggressive ladder placement. Well here they are at it again.

[JBE 328]

That just don't look safe.

[Guest]

That just don't look safe.

Why? The stick is thrown directly off the back of the truck. That used to be our truck (TL2) and I believe(if memory serves correct) when it is short jacked on both sides the computer won't let you go any more than 5º off of center. Looks like a great job they did to me.

Boston is pretty big on getting "the stick out of the bed" at all boxes. We end up having to throw a lot of ground ladders in my district due to overhead wires. Some chiefs like to see you just take the stick out of the bed to show that you made the effort.

Edited January 9, 2008 by firewrx612

[robert benz 344]

I think it is great placement so long as you are not in a collapse zone, it is all about knowing your apparatus and using your head for more than having a place for your helmet

[Guest FFNick]

Although I do not advocate short jacking unless it is only done when ABSOLUTELY necessary, I would say that this one wasn't too bad. I was not there, and I do not know the specifics, but as long as the aerial was operated along the long axis of the vehicle, it is passable.

I, myself, have no problem with shortjacking on the non fire (non operating) side when necessary - like on congested streets.

And getting back to x635's original post, I too, am always very impressed (jealous!) of Boston's use of both aerial and ground ladders. To me, it shows a commitment from the department and it also shows me that their incident commanders are trained and experienced to understand the use and need of ladders and their proper placement.

Edited January 9, 2008 by FFNick

[FirNaTine 370]

Why? The stick is thrown directly off the back of the truck. That used to be our truck (TL2) and I believe(if memory serves correct) when it is short jacked on both sides the computer won't let you go any more than 5º off of center. Looks like a great job they did to me.

Boston is pretty big on getting "the stick out of the bed" at all boxes. We end up having to throw a lot of ground ladders in my district due to overhead wires. Some chiefs like to see you just take the stick out of the bed to show that you made the effort.

Who's responsible for laddering the bldg. anyway? Is it the 1st and 2nd due truck or mainly just the 2nd due. I was told yrs. ago, it's primarily the 2nd due's responsibilty and then they enter to search the floor above. Just wondering how you guys operate up there. Thanks.

[Guest]

Who's responsible for laddering the bldg. anyway? Is it the 1st and 2nd due truck or mainly just the 2nd due. I was told yrs. ago, it's primarily the 2nd due's responsibilty and then they enter to search the floor above. Just wondering how you guys operate up there. Thanks.

It's really every trucks responsibility, depending upon what the incident and the IC dictate. The first due truck, sends a man to the roof as does the second. Whatever it takes to get that man to the roof is done (ground ladder, aerial etc). Beyond that, the IC will have additional companies throw 35's to windows as necessary, as additional exits or lines over ladders etc.

[Guest]

I know I brought up this topic a few years ago, but I'm always impressed when I see the photos such as the one taken by Doug Boudrow at the recent 7th alarm in Boston.

At any fire scene in Boston, you always see mulitple ground ladders thrown, and mostly every aerial ladder comapny on the scene has their stick in the air, no matter where they have to position it. I don't know if it's traditional, SOP, training or all of the above, all I know is that it's very impressive that they make the most of their resources.

It's much better then at a multiple alarm around here, where most of the responding truck companies line the street away from the scene, sticks snug in the bed and all the ground ladders untouched.

Anyways, check out the photo. Impressive:

http://www.pbase.com/doug55579/image/91056149/original

Boston has always been known for their aggressive aerial and ground ladder ops.

I'm sure it's much easier to arrive on a ladder with 5 instead of 2. "Most" companies, other than YFD do not have the pleasure of having properly staffed truck companies when a "multiple alarm" comes in Seth. So when you ask yourself why the stick is bedded, it is because most of the members are either A. Doing a search, B. Doing OV or C. Unfortunately doing suppression, because of limited manpower. Think before you speak my friend. The grass is always greener.

"At a lot of jobs I saw, mainly in Yonkers and NewRochelle, they put their ladder trucks into use at almost every working structure fire.

In many cases they drove the rig onto the front lawn in order to get the aerial up on the structure, sometimes under power, CATV and phone cables.

(I'll look for pics)

Here's a good one from Thornwood, on Kensico Road with Pleasantville mutual aid ladder:"

Is it really necessary to have 2 aerials going to a 1 1/2 story frame cape with wires in such close proximity? I guess ground ladders are not as pretty for the photos. Let's not forget what happened to the brother in Scranton the other day.

[Guest]

I'm sure it's much easier to arrive on a ladder with 5 instead of 2. "Most" companies, other than YFD do not have the pleasure of having properly staffed truck companies when a "multiple alarm" comes in Seth. So when you ask yourself why the stick is bedded, it is because most of the members are either A. Doing a search, B. Doing OV or C. Unfortunately doing suppression, because of limited manpower. Think before you speak my friend. The grass is always greener.

Is it really necessary to have 2 aerials going to a 1 1/2 story frame cape with wires in such close proximity? I guess ground ladders are not as pretty for the photos. Let's not forget what happened to the brother in Scranton the other day.

Boston runs 1 and 3 on truck companies now, unfortunately. When I first came on, they tried to keep us 1 and 4 (which still isn't enough) most of the time, but now it's pretty rare. Maybe you weren't speaking about us specifically, in that case just an FYI.

I see your point about it maybe not being necessary to use the aerial in that picture, but it would be faster and take less manpower then ground ladders. Also the risk is not that great. In Boston (usually) that first set of wires is only CATV, the second set is telephone/fire alarm/fiberoptic, the third set is ~110v and that last set would be the ~13kv lines. That stick is well away from the 110v which you would have to make contact with, and the ~13kv which can arc across a distance is well away. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt on that one. Depending on what I saw on arrival I think I probably would have thrown the stick. Especially since where I am, if you never threw the stick near any wires, you'd never throw the stick. I'm used to working around wires.

[Guest]

Boston runs 1 and 3 on truck companies now, unfortunately. When I first came on, they tried to keep us 1 and 4 (which still isn't enough) most of the time, but now it's pretty rare. Maybe you weren't speaking about us specifically, in that case just an FYI.

I see your point about it maybe not being necessary to use the aerial in that picture, but it would be faster and take less manpower then ground ladders. Also the risk is not that great. In Boston (usually) that first set of wires is only CATV, the second set is telephone/fire alarm/fiberoptic, the third set is ~110v and that last set would be the ~13kv lines. That stick is well away from the 110v which you would have to make contact with, and the ~13kv which can arc across a distance is well away. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt on that one. Depending on what I saw on arrival I think I probably would have thrown the stick. Especially since where I am, if you never threw the stick near any wires, you'd never throw the stick. I'm used to working around wires.

Wasn't using Boston as the example, just using a scenerio.

Only stating that by the time you throw the outriggers out and start throwing up the stick(especially on a tower) to a 1 1/2 frame, the trucks could be doing a primary and ov'ing off the portables. Especially with 2 guys rather then 4 or 5.

As far as the wires go, it sounds like it's set up the same way here. I'd still use the 10 feet rule. 110V on a wet surface with metal is more than enough to do you in. Just don't want to see it happen to anyone. Just my 2 cents bro.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Here's a good one from Thornwood, on Kensico Road with Pleasantville mutual aid ladder:

There is aggressive placement, then there is dangerous!!!

Just remember, OSHA says 10 feet minimum distance from ANY WIRES!!!

Below is a picture of the setup where the Scranton PA captain died. Remember, he died from electrocution, not because the aerial came into contact with lines, but because the power arc-ed!!

This is not a Monday morning quarterback, or a bashing of anyone/any department, its just a reminder to BE SAFE OUT THERE!!!! Your best tool on a fireground is your head!!!

Edited January 9, 2008 by xfirefighter484x

[LTNRFD 266]

At a lot of jobs I saw, mainly in Yonkers and NewRochelle, they put their ladder trucks into use at almost every working structure fire.

In many cases they drove the rig onto the front lawn in order to get the aerial up on the structure, sometimes under power, CATV and phone cables.

(I'll look for pics)

Here's a good one from Thornwood, on Kensico Road with Pleasantville mutual aid ladder:

After reading the blogs re: electrical lines, take a close look at the truck on the 4 side. It looks like they are real close to 2 ariel (overhead) electrical cables.

[mfc2257 464]

Who's responsible for laddering the bldg. anyway? Is it the 1st and 2nd due truck or mainly just the 2nd due. I was told yrs. ago, it's primarily the 2nd due's responsibilty and then they enter to search the floor above. Just wondering how you guys operate up there. Thanks.

Depending on staffing... I've typically operated in the following manner:

1st due truck... assuming the cop, engine, or medic hasn't blocked access when possible position on side A. Ladder sides A & B

2nd due truck... assuming the same... when possible position on side C. Ladder sides C&D.

Truck riding positions

- Chauffer operates aerial device. If not in use, driver controls utilities, assists with laddering, OVM, Roof

- Officer sizes up, establishes command if necessary OR assists with search & rescue & throwing ladders

- Can man (usually carries pike pole or hook) search & rescue, opening up interior

- Irons man performes forceable entry, search & rescue, opens up interior, assists with removal of window bars

- OVM obvious... effect/assist with rescues OR report to roof after horizontal vent complete

- Roof man secure stairwell if OMD, vent roof, effect/assist with rescues

[Guest]

Wasn't using Boston as the example, just using a scenerio.

Only stating that by the time you throw the outriggers out and start throwing up the stick(especially on a tower) to a 1 1/2 frame, the trucks could be doing a primary and ov'ing off the portables. Especially with 2 guys rather then 4 or 5.

As far as the wires go, it sounds like it's set up the same way here. I'd still use the 10 feet rule. 110V on a wet surface with metal is more than enough to do you in. Just don't want to see it happen to anyone. Just my 2 cents bro.

I here ya. I agree that if you aren't almost completely sure what kind of voltage is running through those lines stay 10 ft away.

I'm not sure I agree with you about the speed of stick(tower) vs ground ladders issue. Maybe your trucks take longer to set up than ours? not sure. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm not arguing just discussing for the sake of my own learning. Maybe there's a variable I'm not thinking of.

The jacks on the tower we had were pretty fast, I think. Generally you only fully deploy them on the side you are putting the bucket to (streets were never wide enough to fully deploy both sides) so the other side went straight down. So time is saved there. We don't really use plates, unless the ground is soft. That saves a little time. With ground ladders, you still have wires to deal with and it usually takes two guys to throw one.

ov'ing= overhauling?

[xfirefighter484x 234]

After reading the blogs re: electrical lines, take a close look at the truck on the 4 side. It looks like they are real close to 2 ariel (overhead) electrical cables.

Psssst....check out the posting directly above yours!!

[Guest]

There is aggressive placement, then there is dangerous!!!

Just remember, OSHA says 10 feet minimum distance from ANY WIRES!!!

Below is a picture of the setup where the Scranton PA captain died. Remember, he died from electrocution, not because the aerial came into contact with lines, but because the power arc-ed!!

This is not a Monday morning quarterback, or a bashing of anyone/any department, its just a reminder to BE SAFE OUT THERE!!!! Your best tool on a fireground is your head!!!

I'm definitely not advocating getting close to the 12kv lines, that's crazy. 110v lines aren't going to arc across a great distance (something on the order of a mm) You pretty much have to make contact. It just takes knowing what lines are what.

[Guest]

I here ya. I agree that if you aren't almost completely sure what kind of voltage is running through those lines stay 10 ft away.

I'm not sure I agree with you about the speed of stick(tower) vs ground ladders issue. Maybe your trucks take longer to set up than ours? not sure. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm not arguing just discussing for the sake of my own learning. Maybe there's a variable I'm not thinking of.

The jacks on the tower we had were pretty fast, I think. Generally you only fully deploy them on the side you are putting the bucket to (streets were never wide enough to fully deploy both sides) so the other side went straight down. So time is saved there. We don't really use plates, unless the ground is soft. That saves a little time. With ground ladders, you still have wires to deal with and it usually takes two guys to throw one.

ov'ing= overhauling?

Two guys on an ALF Tower takes a while. I've been to Boston quite a few times so I hear ya on the street width!!!

Just have to imagine doing it with 2 instead of more. It sucks but ya just have to roll with it.

ov'ing=outside venting

[Guest]

There is aggressive placement, then there is dangerous!!!

Just remember, OSHA says 10 feet minimum distance from ANY WIRES!!!

Below is a picture of the setup where the Scranton PA captain died. Remember, he died from electrocution, not because the aerial came into contact with lines, but because the power arc-ed!!

This is not a Monday morning quarterback, or a bashing of anyone/any department, its just a reminder to BE SAFE OUT THERE!!!! Your best tool on a fireground is your head!!!

First picture not dangerous, second picture EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!

All wires on not created equal. 12kv lines will arc across a distance and will almost definitely kill you. 110, CATV, Telephone will not arc and most likely will not kill you. There's no comparison between the amount of danger in those two pictures.

[Guest]

First picture not dangerous, second picture EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!

All wires on not created equal. 12kv lines will arc across a distance and will almost definitely kill you. 110, CATV, Telephone will not arc and most likely will not kill you. There's no comparison between the amount of danger in those two pictures.

If you are in a wet bucket and come in contact with 110v you could get your balls blown off. It isn't the volts, it's the amps. You could die from a car battery if the conditions are right(wrong). Cable, tele, not an issue. I'm talking house service and secondary. Forget primary, cause you'd be fried.

[Guest]

Two guys on an ALF Tower takes a while. I've been to Boston quite a few times so I hear ya on the street width!!!

Just have to imagine doing it with 2 instead of more. It sucks but ya just have to roll with it.

ov'ing=outside venting

It sucks that town puts FF's into the position of having only two guys on a truck, but yeah "you gotta do what'cha gotta do"

Two guys really? hmmm When we first got the tower, we used two guys to set it up at first. We used plates and pins on both sides. Then we thought about, if you have two guys outside setting up the truck, the open-up guy is with the engine company so the officer is searching alone. So we chose the lesser of two evils and said screw the plates and pins on the non-fire side and sent that guy inside with the officer. Now we're back to a regular E-One 110 (in service at the end of this week, yeah!) so it's a moot point. Maybe on other trucks you can't get away with using one guy?

Forgive my lack of acronym knowledge ALF?

[mfc2257 464]

Forgive my lack of acronym knowledge ALF?

American LaFrance

[LTNRFD 266]

Psssst....check out the posting directly above yours!!

The posting above my post talked about not going near any wires and that is a good concept to follow. With that said how many time the "stick" is place near phone or cable T.V. lines. All too often we forget or don't realize that there are 13Kv or higher running thru the "overhead (ariel) cable" lines (ELECTRIC). These "cables" run real close to the cable T.V. lines. In the Thornwood picture it looks like if someone went up the ladder part of the TL and stood up they would come in contact with the an energized line. Just because it's close to a cable T.V. or phone lines doesn't mean it can't hurt you. Before you put up any ladder, LOOK UP. That goes for when your working around the your home also.

Stay Safe.

[Guest]

If you are in a wet bucket and come in contact with 110v you could get your balls blown off. It isn't the volts, it's the amps. You could die from a car battery if the conditions are right(wrong). Cable, tele, not an issue. I'm talking house service and secondary. Forget primary, cause you'd be fried.

Yes it's the current, once you make contact. I agree. But 110 isn't going to gap a distance. That stick (in the picture) is 6-7 ft (est.) away from the house service. If you are a dope and walk up the stick with your rake (wet or metal) in the air and strike the line well then I guess natural selection has done its job. I just think it's an acceptable risk, maybe I'm crazy? My wife always says she worries about much more when I'm off the job (rock climbing, trials biking, downhill etc.) I've never been injured on the job in ten years, but I know the ER staff by name from all the other stuff I do

Edited January 9, 2008 by firewrx612

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I'm definitely not advocating getting close to the 12kv lines, that's crazy. 110v lines aren't going to arc across a great distance (something on the order of a mm) You pretty much have to make contact. It just takes knowing what lines are what.

First picture not dangerous, second picture EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!

All wires on not created equal. 12kv lines will arc across a distance and will almost definitely kill you. 110, CATV, Telephone will not arc and most likely will not kill you. There's no comparison between the amount of danger in those two pictures.

And who is to say that somehow, somewhere close by, one line did not fall and cross with another, and energize it to a higher voltage?

Its called universal precautions, and common sense guys.

[Guest]

American LaFrance

Thank you sir. I knew it was something obvious.

We've only ever used E-One and Pierce. I know nothing about other manufacturers.

[Guest FFNick]

It's much better then at a multiple alarm around here, where most of the responding truck companies line the street away from the scene, sticks snug in the bed and all the ground ladders untouched.

So, getting back to the original post - what is the answer?

I know that for us, the first due chauffer will usually put the aerial up by himself, and go to the roof by himself. This may change depending on the arrival of the 2nd due truck, or the officer having one of the FF's stay out and help. Usually the balance of the first due crew go interior or OV.

The 2nd due truck, if they aren't blocked out, try to get their aerial on another side of the building. If they can not, they are to assist the 1st due chauffer, or throw ground ladders, or go interior depending on the IC.

We historically have a very bad habit of not throwing ground ladders, or not throwing enough.

[Guest]

And who is to say that somehow, somewhere close by, one line did not fall and cross with another, and energize it to a higher voltage?

Its called universal precautions, and common sense guys.

We could all be hit by a meteor at any moment. But the chances are slim.

To me it's called acceptable risk. I always wear my seat-belt, I always have my mask with me and full bunker gear, because there is almost no downside. To me not throwing the stick or ground ladders near CATV wires on the off chance that they may be energized (and not showing any signs of being energized) especially with the big potential downside of no vertical ventilation or secondary means of egress doesn't make much sense. Am I wrong? again maybe I'm crazy.