EMS within the FD...what's the priority?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

You guys didn't get that memo?

The 99.9999999999999% AFA that is a malfunction or malicious false is more important then the heart attack, stroke, CHF, SOB, elderly person lying on the floor or just being able to get someone there regardless in the name of SERVICE!

What I always have loved are the policies that limit the response of a EMS designated unit if there are x amount of apparatus or units on the road for EMS calls. Then call it in the name of "fire staffing." But no such limits on any other such responses like mutual aid fire calls, particulary FAST calls if the designated number of units are assigned to EMS jobs. Since when is resource management done by paper when there are pending alarms fire and/or ems? And since when is having a unit sitting in the firehouse in the event something "might" happen become more important then the person with a medical issue that has no units heading there for any amount of time? Or even better...the dispatch or the unit if actively dispatched to the EMS call after the number has been reached is suppose to contact the Chief to find out if he "ok's" the response? Is that not a liability issue if the Chief has no medical training, no EMD training and he is making a decision on whether or not a unit will go?

I always wondered...how many police departments hold one unit from not going to any type of calls because a bank robbery might happen? Then I realize that I don't know of any from talking to friends and colleagues and wonder then why do FD's do this?

Does this make sense to anyone else?

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Since this is a legitamate issue, and many members have made excellent points, I will and want to let this thread remain open for discussion.

However, I did recieve information from a few members concerned that one member posting on this thread does have a documented history of having an issue with a certain agency. For the sake of keeping this discussion going, I'd like to ask that this thread be kept at a professional level, and not used to (consistently) rant against a specific agency, even if the agency is not stated but implied.

Please, let's keep this forum at a mature and professional level. Let's treat all topics as if we were in a room talking to one another, and show respect, no matter how much you disagree with someone else's opinion.

I hope that is not directed at me. No I am not PARANOID. I know that some people think that I pick on their AGENCY. That is not the case. I call it as I see it.

I can answer that without going to any department heads. The agency that needed the mutual aid was already tied up on another call.

I can answer that without going to any department heads. The agency that needed the mutual aid was already tied up on another call.

"I can remember the days when you were more than glad to do a mutual aid call for "your neighbors". I can also remember the days when our Police Officers were grateful for the volunteers. Now some of them won't even speak to you nor give you a hand with anything, they stand there and just watch with their arms folded. Talk about where your tax dollars are going!!!!"

Since I don't know how to do multiple quotes on a post the above was by GAW6.

I don't think it is a question of doing MUTUAL AID. One agency was on a call and needed another amb. I don't expect during the day that most VAC's in this COUNTY can get out a second crew. Now some can, but I think that we can all agree that most can't. Mutual Aid was dispatched. There was a PAID EMT already there and they couldn't get a driver to drive the AMB. That is ridiculous. Then there is a FIRE CALL and all of sudden there are people there. Then another EMS call and a driver appears. Isn't that a little silly. It does look bad if you see it that way right? That is not picking on and AGENCY that is saying that something is wrong and should be addressed.

Onto the "days when the Police Officers were grateful for volunteers. Who says that the PO's are not grateful? I just think it is time for a change. Not going to speak for anybody else though. I can't help it if PO's don't like to be on aided calls. Some PO's don't like aided calls because they are not trained and feel weird. I have heard that many times. Can't blame them for that. BTW, who says that the PO's have to give you a hand? While some should carry a bag or help with the patient it is not their JOB. If you choose to do EMS expect to carry lots of stuff. We have in our POLICY now that we HAVE TO help if there is help to be had. So I'll carry a bag what's the big deal. There is also a changing of the guard. Lots of new faces. I think that may be a factor as well.

People don't like that I speak my mind. Maybe they think that I am wrong and don't know what I am talking about.

Here is the bottom line. Some people think that I may have a VENDETTA against their AGENCY. That is not the case. If I see something wrong I want to try and fix it.

And so everybody knows. There are lots of people that talk about it, they just don't post it.

[SgtGumby311 0]

Who or what determines which call is more important? does a cardiac arrest get the same response as

flames rolling out the windows? It sounds like a pi**ing contest 2 me...paid or not, get the job done.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

First read this so I clarify something..when most of us quote out of another persons post and then reply to what is said...for the mos of us we aren't directly replying to that person. When I use terms, like "you", I mean all of us as a whole, not the person who posted it. Some of you take it as a personal email message. I post for very simple reasons....to answer questions I may have an answer for or insight, to give opinion to vent and to try to use my experiences and knowledge to enhance, educate and to ask for information back in return. Do most of us get this now? Or should this be a seperate thread too?

I can also remember the days when our Police Officers were grateful for the volunteers. Now some of them won't even speak to you nor give you a hand with anything, they stand there and just watch with their arms folded. Talk about where your tax dollars are going!!!!

First I have to agree with oneeye...who says they aren't grateful for whoever is there? Just as with everything else society and personalities change. If they aren't speaking to you, perhaps you aren't speaking to them either...someone or persons are making them feel uncomfortable perhaps because there are many whom once they speak to an officer and know their name seem to think they are have been best friends for life...or there are other issues stemming that they do not feel comfortable getting overly personal for when the professional side of the job comes up. And as stated, just as there are some EMSer's out there who do not want to be firefighters there are police officers who can't stand being sent to aided cases because they are not trained.

If they aren't doing something and you feel that you need help...ask them to. It goes a long way. As long as its a reasonable request. If you got called to a crime scene as an "aided" and were standing there while a police officer was questioning a perp and patting him down...what would you do? Stand there with your arms folded and your mouth shut. If he needed something he will ask.

Talk about where your tax dollars are going? How about the fact that there is a police officer, standing at a medical case when there are trained medical providers there....or standing there trying to be a calming force because he knows there aren't any providers coming anytime soon. I'd rather have my colleagues out on patrol, handling quality of life issues and whatever else they deem "routine police work" then standing there, knowing that they have no clue what is wrong or what I am doing.

Edited January 3, 2008 by alsfirefighter

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

ALSFIREFIGHTER great post. People are going to think we are in CAHOOTS. See that, LEO's and FF's can get along. LOL

[irishfire2491 24]

Who or what determines which call is more important? does a cardiac arrest get the same response as

flames rolling out the windows? It sounds like a pi**ing contest 2 me...paid or not, get the job done.

MY theory LIFE of property any time So I would have to say Cardiac Arrest but I Do agree We are all in it for the same reason weather Volly or Paid We do the JOB to help others in need just remember Property can be Replace A Life has a Time period and you time may count to save their life.

[mfkap 0]

This isn't a new phenomena, it happens everywhere. The reason this happens is because no one wants to play EMS, the second a fire alarm goes out you've got everyone and their brother. The reason they probably got out on that second call is because they were all at the firehouse and couldn't exactly leave the building in good conscious if they didn't respond. It's one thing to turn the pager off and roll back over, but its another thing to leave the firehouse when you get a call...

This is the basis of the difference between Fire and EMS. For an EMS call, there is a 99.9% chance that you are going to have a patient, have to work, and get tied up for close to an hour. For a fire call, there is a 99.9% chance that there is no fire, you are going to have to work for about 5 minutes, and can be back in 15 minutes.

It is a lot more fun to drive the big red (green?) truck with lights and sirens, with that being the main thing that you are doing for the entire call. For most fire calls, getting there is the most exciting part of the call. For EMS, the lights and sirens thing is not the most important thing you are doing (depending on the moron behind the wheel), and really, how is it fun if you aren't running people off the road in a vehicle bigger than theirs?

[helicopper 1,050]

Who or what determines which call is more important? does a cardiac arrest get the same response as

flames rolling out the windows? It sounds like a pi**ing contest 2 me...paid or not, get the job done.

I think this is the fundamental point of the original post. Who determines what priority simultaneous (or near simultaneous) calls receive?

This is why EMS needs to be a priority - regardless of the oversight/overall agency.

Of course, the whole problem could be eliminated by dispatching all calls as personal injury accidents with entrapment - no agencies have a problem getting out for those.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Of course, the whole problem could be eliminated by dispatching all calls as personal injury accidents with entrapment - no agencies have a problem getting out for those.

EXACTLY what the problem is. Some DEPTS pick and choose what they want to go on. Maybe I said that wrong.

Scenario#1 this is not directed at any DEPT. ABC FD/AMB or VAC AMB gets called to 123 Nursing home for an fall victim. Tones go off and nobody responds so MUTUAL AID is DISP out. 4 min later in said Town/Village a PIN JOB comes in with possibly Fatality. Now the whole world shows up from ABC FD/AMB or VAC AMB. How is that fair to the fall victim? It isn't.

Don't tell me they were on the way to the STATION when the second call came in and that is why they got out.

I don't want to hear that it doesn't happen because it does. So if everything came in as the coolest thing to look at or see we wouldn't have a problem.

If you are a member of and FD that also has an AMB are you cross trained in both? Do you specify which one you want to work on? Meaning if there is an AMB call you will go on that but if there is a FIRE call you will go on that? When both are at the same time you have a dilemma which do you pick? I think the CHIEFS of the DEPT need to make if very clear what the priorities are.

[NWFDMedic 58]

So did they have their paid EMT in the building at the time of the first call? How is it that you can drive a fire truck and not drive and ambulance. You are not being asked to perform CPR, just drive the damn AMB.

In 2008 I am going to be watching closely. I want to see just how bad it really is. I know how bad it is, I want other people to know how bad it is.

This is quite a shortsighted point of view. It's not as easy as just driving the damn ambulance. The driver of the ambulance with an EMT attendant must be able to operate a stretcher, stair chair, reeves, etc. and at least know where the equipment is in the ambulance. They should also have at least some sort of familiarity with the apparatus. I don't know the situation with the departments you are discussing, but with a 2 person crew, you just can't take any emergency driver and throw them on the bus.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

This is quite a shortsighted point of view. It's not as easy as just driving the damn ambulance. The driver of the ambulance with an EMT attendant must be able to operate a stretcher, stair chair, reeves, etc. and at least know where the equipment is in the ambulance. They should also have at least some sort of familiarity with the apparatus. I don't know the situation with the departments you are discussing, but with a 2 person crew, you just can't take any emergency driver and throw them on the bus.

In a pinch if you can DRIVE an AMB then Drive it. Most stretchers are now 1 person so there goes that aspect. I know they take 2 or 3 people to work but that is how it goes. Get the AMB TO THE SCENE. There will be people there that can help. 99% of the time a MEDIC will be there and I am sure there will be a COP there with his ARMS FOLDED so HE/SHE can probably help but only if they are grateful for volunteers. The main concern is getting to the PT and getting that PT to the ER.

I know that I hate being on calls where the family is looking at me wondering where the amb is. You tell them that they are VOLUNTEERS and need to get the AMB from the building. They don't care, they just want their family member taken to the hospital. Then you tell them that the another AMB is coming because the first one can't get out. They don't want to wait 20 min for and AMB and neither do I. It is very uncomfortable for everyone on scene. Of course there are going to be times when everyone is busy, but that happens when nothing is going on.

[firemoose827 324]

Whew!!! Theres a lot going on here, so I will add what I can of my experiences.

In my county we have two types of Volunteer EMS agencies as Im sure everyone is aware of; Fire Dept affiliated and the Private EMS Agency. We currently have only 3 privates, I was in one of them for 11 years and now belong to a Fire Dept Affiliated EMS agency and am a member of both Fire and Ambulance. Now, as mentioned earlier, with fire dept EMS there are TWO separate memberships within the department and you dont have to be in both. We have members who are ONLY EMS, and only fire, and some (Like me) who are both and constantly feel like a rope in a tug-of-war. I have stated numerous times that in the event there is an MVA, or fire, I will ride in the fire truck unless NEEDED as EMT in the rig. A lot of the firefighters in our dept do NOT LIKE EMS stuff and want nothing to do with it, not even driving, which isnt a bad thing. They just cant handle blood and guts, or other bodily fluids, and have weak stomaches. Even as a driver you will see this stuff as you have to help lift the patient, so there is no "Driver Only" thing someone mentioned earlier in this thread. They state they feel bad when a driver is needed, but they just cant do the EMS thing. Conversely, there are EMS people who physically cant do the job of firefighter but still want to help out, nothing wrong with that either. I have been in the middle so many times and have a lot of experience with this issue, I am a past captain of my old private EMS agency, and tried to mend the working relationship with the Fire Dept ( who I also belonged to and was Lt.) to the point they actually began to call for EMS to stand-by at structure fires again. For a while, the fire chief didnt call for ems, and the EMS people would just go and sit at the station and listen to the radio in case needed, but the chief stopped calling for them to the scene. ( Dangerous)

So as far as the fire call getting answered, and the EMS calls lacking participation, I cant speak for the specific agency, but I see this all the time here too. Its just that most of the EMS people are not available, and some of the firefighters are. The luck of the dice. Another thing to add, like in my situation, I work for my Village and they still have guidelines for what I can leave work for and what I cant. So most people are restricted to day time responses. I can only leave for Structure Fires, Brush Fires, MVA's with tones for manpower, and Charlie, Delta and Echo Ambulance responses only. I cant go to every Auto Alarm, smell of gas, smoke sighted or Alpha and Bravo calls there are.

I agree, there is definately the need for separate EMS agencies. There are currently 3 other EMS agencies looking to separate from the Fire Dept and go Private as well. And the Paid unit I work for PT has gained numerous turn-overs from county volunteer agencies due to lack of manpower. I think a county wide system needs to be implemented for the welfare of our patients, not only for call coverage, but the lack of EMS training and experience most of our current Fire Chiefs have. Technically, how can a fire chief with No EMS training or experience effectively run and manage an EMS agency, even with an elected EMS Captains help and guidance? "MOST" Fire Chiefs just dont understand the need for EMS, or its specific needs for equipment, training and such. I believe the dedicated EMS agency as a THIRD RESPECTED agency is definately the way to go, and should primarily be staffed with paid personnel during the weekdays and keep your volunteers for weekends. Hope this helped, and didnt confuse everyone!! It was a mouthful!! Sorry!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

This is quite a shortsighted point of view. It's not as easy as just driving the damn ambulance. The driver of the ambulance with an EMT attendant must be able to operate a stretcher, stair chair, reeves, etc. and at least know where the equipment is in the ambulance. They should also have at least some sort of familiarity with the apparatus. I don't know the situation with the departments you are discussing, but with a 2 person crew, you just can't take any emergency driver and throw them on the bus.

NWFD...I know we've been on the opposite ends of a few discussions lately but I have to agree with Oneeye sometimes it comes down to...just being able to drive the damn ambulance. I understand what you are saying, and to be honest know that I think about it, I agree with you too. But unfortunately this isn't the world most of us are operating in right now and for us, its get me a bus so I can get my patient moving.

The equipment isn't exactly like rocket science. There are only so many compartments on the bus so finding equipment shouldn't be that hard and I think generally what is meant that those that can drive the fire apparatus, should also be able to drive the ambulance parked next to it after they receive training on it. Then again, if I had a apparatus driver willing to take the ambulance....bring it. Better then standing around for 20 mins. or even 45 like I did today until the 4th mutual aid agency got a crew out. I was running out of entertainment options and way I could answer "why aren't you doing anything yet?"

Stretchers are stretchers, not hard to explain to someone. Reeves...unfold, when I roll them over put it here, click the straps tighten and lift with your legs not your back. Stair chair..same thing EMT/Medic should know and put the less knowing person on top so if they screw up...you can stop the patient from going bye bye.

Other then that...patient care is my issue...and you do what you can based on patient condition and available hands/abilities at the time.

[Monty 35]

EXACTLY what the problem is. Some DEPTS pick and choose what they want to go on. Maybe I said that wrong.

Scenario#1 this is not directed at any DEPT. ABC FD/AMB or VAC AMB gets called to 123 Nursing home for an fall victim. Tones go off and nobody responds so MUTUAL AID is DISP out. 4 min later in said Town/Village a PIN JOB comes in with possibly Fatality. Now the whole world shows up from ABC FD/AMB or VAC AMB. How is that fair to the fall victim? It isn't.

Don't tell me they were on the way to the STATION when the second call came in and that is why they got out.

I don't want to hear that it doesn't happen because it does. So if everything came in as the coolest thing to look at or see we wouldn't have a problem.

If you are a member of and FD that also has an AMB are you cross trained in both? Do you specify which one you want to work on? Meaning if there is an AMB call you will go on that but if there is a FIRE call you will go on that? When both are at the same time you have a dilemma which do you pick? I think the CHIEFS of the DEPT need to make if very clear what the priorities are.

With regards to picking and choosing, I speak from my fire experience. I used to be with a Dept that responded to the station for all calls. It was proposed at one time that we just be alerted to an emergency call and have to get to the fire house to find out what it was. The BS A/A at 2am was getting maybe 3 people, the reported structure would get 50 people (not really but you get the point). Of course, it was never tried and the problem pretty much continued unabated.

In the UK, they used to operate exactly this way - and I believe still do, in that they carry beepers and not pagers.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Moose that is what I was trying to get out. For the purpose of this post if I say fireman it means woman as well. I understand that some members want to be just fireman and some members want to be just on the AMB or even do both. If fyou don't like blood and guts then don't be in the "heloing of people field". There are going to be times when these sqeemish people are going to see blood and guts. Just say that you don't like EMS and I will be fine with that. What I do question is why people don't want to drive the AMB. Down here at some VAC's they have EMERGENCY DRIVERS. Most just OFF DUTY LEO's who want to help out. They know how to work the stretcher and maybe find some gear. They are not expected to care for the PT in any way.

Cross train drivers. Tell them that they don't have to even go into the scene. Just wait by the amb. I am telling you that 9 times out of 10 there will be sufficent amount of help there give a hand. GET TO THE PATIENT. Don't worry about the AUTOMATIC ALARM. And if it turns out to be a STRUCTURE FIRE I am sure the turnaround at the ER will BE SUPERSONIC. You won't miss that much. Plus, do they really need you at that point? I am sure that EVERY FD IN THE AREA WILL BE THERE FOR SUPPORT.

Sorry you might miss the "BIG ONE". Buildings can be rebuilt. DEAD PEOPLE CAN'T

[firemoose827 324]

Moose that is what I was trying to get out. For the purpose of this post if I say fireman it means woman as well. I understand that some members want to be just fireman and some members want to be just on the AMB or even do both. If fyou don't like blood and guts then don't be in the "heloing of people field". There are going to be times when these sqeemish people are going to see blood and guts. Just say that you don't like EMS and I will be fine with that. What I do question is why people don't want to drive the AMB. Down here at some VAC's they have EMERGENCY DRIVERS. Most just OFF DUTY LEO's who want to help out. They know how to work the stretcher and maybe find some gear. They are not expected to care for the PT in any way.

Cross train drivers. Tell them that they don't have to even go into the scene. Just wait by the amb. I am telling you that 9 times out of 10 there will be sufficent amount of help there give a hand. GET TO THE PATIENT. Don't worry about the AUTOMATIC ALARM. And if it turns out to be a STRUCTURE FIRE I am sure the turnaround at the ER will BE SUPERSONIC. You won't miss that much. Plus, do they really need you at that point? I am sure that EVERY FD IN THE AREA WILL BE THERE FOR SUPPORT.

Sorry you might miss the "BIG ONE". Buildings can be rebuilt. DEAD PEOPLE CAN'T

Woa! At no point in time did I ever say I want to miss a call dude, chill, relax, breathe. I was just simply speaking from my own experiences and what I have seen of others and what they have told me. By me saying that I am a firefighter first means that at all fires the ambulance goes to, I will be on the firetruck. If they need an EMT, guess what, Im on scene and I will jump on the rig to transport the patient. Im not one of those wahoos that get all bent out of shape whenever the siren goes off and feels the need to get to the firehouse whenever Im doing an EMS run. I will finish the EMS call, and if they are still on scene of the fire I will go with the ambulance with my turnouts, If I am needed for the fire Im there, if not theres a rig on scene to treat victims. Dont classify me as a nutjob who just has to be at fires...Not me bro. Im here to help people however I can and I do that calmly and professionaly. Sorry my post was misread the first time, but that wasnt what I intended for you to interpret it as.

We have "Drivers" here too. They dont hold EMT or even First Responder credentials, just drive the rig and help out at scenes, play the "gopher" if you will. Thats fine with me too, there are different levels of "Helpers" out there, and I dont make up the parameters of how far they are willing to go, I do however support them all in any way I can. If they want to be just drivers, great! If they only want to do EMS, fine, or vice/versa, if they only want to be a firefighter and want nothing to do with an ambulance thats fine too. Which Is why I support the idea that EMS should be the third respected agency, and not be affiliated with a fire department. Police should protect people and uphold the law, Firefighters fight fires and rescue people, EMS treat sickness and injury. Sorry if I offended you in any way by trying to explain why some agencies may cover more fires than ems calls, and vice/versa. Its just the membership classification thing.

Me, I go on ALL calls I am available for that work allows me to respond to.

By the way...Happy New Year everyone!

[GAW6 66]

If you don't like blood and guts then don't be in the "heloing of people field". There are going to be times when these sqeemish people are going to see blood and guts.

But aren't police officers in the "helping of people field"? In a previous post you stated that they feel "weird" being on aided cases. I was always taught growing up that a "policeman was always there to help" that they are not just there to catch the "bad guys". Plus the fact, I am willing to bet that there is a Medic on scene in most cases so the P.O. is not required to do anything that makes him "feel weird".

As far as "just anyone jumping in the ambulance and driving" - I agree, but unfortunately with everyone out there being lawsuit happy, if God forbid, that driver gets in to an accident and if they request proof that the driver was "certified" (and believe me, it happens) then what do you do. The person suing won't give a damn that the driver was driving in order to try and save a life.

[x129K 1,393]

This is quite a shortsighted point of view. It's not as easy as just driving the damn ambulance. The driver of the ambulance with an EMT attendant must be able to operate a stretcher, stair chair, reeves, etc. and at least know where the equipment is in the ambulance. They should also have at least some sort of familiarity with the apparatus. I don't know the situation with the departments you are discussing, but with a 2 person crew, you just can't take any emergency driver and throw them on the bus.

Go easy on him dude...he's just a cop!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

If you don't like blood and guts then don't be in the "heloing of people field". There are going to be times when these sqeemish people are going to see blood and guts.

But aren't police officers in the "helping of people field"? In a previous post you stated that they feel "weird" being on aided cases. I was always taught growing up that a "policeman was always there to help" that they are not just there to catch the "bad guys". Plus the fact, I am willing to bet that there is a Medic on scene in most cases so the P.O. is not required to do anything that makes him "feel weird".

As far as "just anyone jumping in the ambulance and driving" - I agree, but unfortunately with everyone out there being lawsuit happy, if God forbid, that driver gets in to an accident and if they request proof that the driver was "certified" (and believe me, it happens) then what do you do. The person suing won't give a damn that the driver was driving in order to try and save a life.

How did this turn into a POLICE ISSUE? I guess people need someone to blame so why not the POLICE who stand on AIDED calls with their arms crossed not wanting to help. Some COPS like aided calls and some don't. If you didn't know anything about EMS would you want to step in and help? NO. I am sure there is a job that they can do if asked to do it. Maybe Open this. I am not going to speak for other PO's because I don't know what they like. I know what I like and I know what I can and can't do on a call.

I am not saying to have some knucklehead get into the amb and drive. If people were crosstrained to drive then we wouldn't have this problem. If you want to be a drive then so be it. I am not going to get on you for doing that.

Moose I am very chill. I never once implied that you yourself would rush and aided to go to a fire scene. When people on here say "you" I think they mean the readers of the posts. Don't take it so literal. There is way too much tension on here.\

Go easy on him dude...he's just a cop!

Now my feelings are hurt. I am going to tell SETH on you guys. SETH, THEY ARE PICKING ON ME. LOL.

How about you get back to the issue at hand and that is not getting to and aided call. THanks.

[Goose 188]

I'm going to be very blunt, but the problem is the volunteer system as a whole. When your on the clock your legally bound to respond. You cant turn over and shut the pager off, you cant pretend you didn't hear the radio - you have to respond. If you don't your going to get screwed somewhere down the line. This is not the case for the vollies because, well, their vollies and no one wants to step on their toes...i mean after all they get out for the bad stuff, don't they?

I couldn't tell you how many mutual aid jobs I've done where a volunteer agency dose not bother responding because it sounds BS and i show up and its the very real deal.

It seems, more and more that its about playing FDNY, buffing out in your battle wagon and sucking up all the praise at some parade rather than actually helping someone.

At the end of the day its all about accountability and there is none, or very little, with a volunteer department. Some volunteer departments/agencies do things very well, no question about it but they are the EXCEPTION not the rule.

Edited January 3, 2008 by Goose

[Guest ab2se]

I can also remember the days when our Police Officers were grateful for the volunteers. Now some of them won't even speak to you nor give you a hand with anything, they stand there and just watch with their arms folded. Talk about where your tax dollars are going!!!!

I remember the days when all the P.O. wanted to do was put the pt. in the back of his 1969 Ford station wagon and go code 3 to Grasslands. Am I dating myself?

[NWFDMedic 58]

NWFD...I know we've been on the opposite ends of a few discussions lately but I have to agree with Oneeye sometimes it comes down to...just being able to drive the damn ambulance. I understand what you are saying, and to be honest know that I think about it, I agree with you too. But unfortunately this isn't the world most of us are operating in right now and for us, its get me a bus so I can get my patient moving.

When he explained to me the system that you guys operate in where there's going to be a medic and/or a cop on the scene as well, that's a bit different. Honestly, I couldn't imagine the lawsuit if something happened if an EMT and Joe Driver took the ambulance with no other qualification if there was an accident or a patient got dropped. Given the system with other responders available to assist, utilizing any FD driver makes a bit more sense. It would be nice to cross-train the drivers though... my former volunteer ambulance service actually solicited one of the FD's in their coverage area for drivers willing to help. They did training at the fire house and set up procedures for utilizing the FD driver if they were available.

And alsff, I don't take anything personally, unless you're after my parents or grandparents.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Honestly, I couldn't imagine the lawsuit if something happened if an EMT and Joe Driver took the ambulance with no other qualification if there was an accident or a patient got dropped.

And you think this doesn't happen with 2 EMS qualified members on ambulance? What's the difference.

In this area ambulances are often driven by persons with nothing more then a CPR card. As far as accidents EMT class doesn't teach you to drive an ambulance, the responsibility falls on the agency for training and requirements.

Patients I'm sure get dropped. I've seen a few near hits myself over the years and pretty much all of them were attributed to a dumb patient that shifted their weight or a personnel back blow out. Other then proper lifting technique your not taught anything else about it in EMT class either. If the patient drops out of a device...that is the crew chiefs liability issue and in the EMT and only a driver scenario...it falls on the EMT.

Gang...the wheel wasn't invented in NY state emergency services. Well that's pretty obvious or it still wouldn't be done and if it was 2 out of 3 organizations would argue that its too big, the training to make it is too long, it will kill volunteers or cost too much money to implement.

Ok so that was a rant...totally true sadly..but a rant. On a serious not about the wheel not invented yesterday. The legal realm always exists. Chances are a practice that has been done for decades without a lawsuit isn't going to happen to you tomorrow!

Moose: I think you mis-interpreted ONEEYE's post. He wasn't directing anything towards you at all brother. I know he clarified that but just thought I'd comment on it as well.

[Guest WCDES636]

I remember the days when all the P.O. wanted to do was put the pt. in the back of his 1969 Ford station wagon and go code 3 to Grasslands. Am I dating myself?

LOL, I can remember that happening into the early 80's. Back then the PO's were actually trained in CPR, O2 Therapy, and advanced first aid. Most of the members of the town VACs were not trained to that level.

ONEEYEDMEDIC might remeber them the Valhalla Car 42 was an E-Wagon.

[firemoose827 324]

ALSfirefighter, I know, My bad, it is easy to misinterpret what is being written when they A) Quote you directly, than Start using a bunch of Caps and assumptions like they are directing it at you. I read your other post about the quoting thing and I agree. Sorry, My bad oneeye.

To defend the cops out there getting bashed...I have no problem with the Village PD here, they are dispatched with us to all calls in the village and have been always there to help. Maybe with most of you guys having problems with PO, it could be a individual personality thing with them and they just dont want to do anything but shoot at bad guys. I have never seen one of our PO just stand around maliciously. Some stand around but thats because they are waiting for orders and dont know what to do. When I ask them to do something they 100% of the time jump right at it without hesitation. Just thought I would offer some positive feedback for you PD guys/gals out there!!

It seems as if a few members just CANT grasp the fact that an agency is bound by what its License allows it to do. There was even a link directly to the site that Explains this in detail. If the Fire Departments license says "BLS First Responder Level", than that firefighter who has a Paramedic card can only perform as a BLS provider. In order for the Firefighter/Medic to be able to perform their ALS skills, the license needs to read "ALS Level Provider".

I went through all of this when I got the "ALS License" for my old ambulance squad from DOH. I had to fill out extensive paperwork and prove that I had at least one ALS Certified Provider in order to get it. As soon as the organization looses its ALS provider the License is lost. They are very strict about this stuff, so READ the link that ALS posted for you.

[Remember585 815]

There's a lot of valid points being discussed here, and although at first it seemed like a bash fest of a certain agency, it seems to have gone back to being more "generic."

Here's my take. I have been a part of an FD that provides EMS since I was 14, which means I have been doing it for 16 years. Myself, and the guys and gals that were around when I started will talk about how it used to be - when the horn blew it was a RACE to get the ambulance out. People would literally race each other, cut each other off and run past one another to get the rig out. It used to be FUN.

On the other hand, I also have belonged to two other EMS agencies. One was pager called and the other was duty crews. We had problems on both sides getting calls covered. The pager-call agency has seen an enormous call volume increase thanks in part to a Skilled Care Facility that calls for an ambulance at least once a day. To cover that many more calls with less people then there used to be is a royal pain in the backside. Then there's the VAC I belonged to that we had to do crews at. There were times where members didn't show up and nobody covered them, times when the crew was only one person and we had to abuse, I mean use, the Medic to cover calls and a bunch of other issues trying to cover calls.

Then, to boot, it seems like the public forgot how to care for themselves for the little things like a broken finger or toe, a cut on their head, etc. They stopped drving to the hospital and started calling 9-1-1. Our call volume has gone up close to 300% in about 12 years in my FDEMS. We went from having one ambulance to having two. We went from "Load & Go," to "Wait for the Medic." A lot has changed. And a bigger change is coming in only a couple months when we, the CFD, will stop providing EMS and it will be done by the newly formed CEMS.

Will this make a difference? YES, even if it is only minute. Will it help response times? Not sure but I really hope so.

The difference I am talking about is that EMS will no longer be the bastard child of the FD. It will have it's own leaders, people with actual EMS EXPERIENCE AND CERTIFICATIONS. We're going to stop depending on people answering the pager calls and put together duty crews. We're going to TRAIN, we're going to MEET TOGETHER and we are going to PERIODICALLY REVIEW HOW WE'RE DOING. And we have all pretty much agreed that if it isn't making a huge difference in the level of care, then we will explore the next step, which would be employment of personnel.

I have worked as an EMT at many places, many times. I have been involved with paid EMS both on the scene and from the other side of the radio at work. Here's the big misconception that everyone has. PAID DOESN'T ALWAYS MEAN BETTER! How many times have we discussed a certain commercial service in the area and their reckless driving, piss poor care and overall unprofessionalism? Exactly. A paycheck means nothing when it comes to being professional and proficient in what we are suppost to do.

I know ALS and I have spoken on this subject many times, just like I have with my fellow members, workers, and other colleagues. We have spent hours on top of hours discussing the peril state EMS is in around here. As we've seen from our fellow posters in other areas outside the "WC" it is all over the place. I think the bottom line is something that has been mentioned before, EMS deserves equality among PD and FD. Once that is accomplished, then maybe we can get our elected officials to back us the way they always (OK, almost always) support PD & FD.

And, those of us hiding behind our computers bashing an agency for it's inabilities, are we doing anything to help? Maybe you don't have the time to volunteer and cover calls, but perhaps you can help your VAC by asking them how you can help, even if it is a letter writing campaign to the politicians for funding and such.

And to all those that helped us with Mutual Aid last year, thank you, I only hope we can scale it back and stop abusing you.

That's my two cents.