Circumventing Having To Hire Career Firefighters

[Monty 35]

If you have the least as stated...FF 1 and HazMat Ops...then you are not a NYS Certified Firefighter. Only obtaining the certification by either the list as stated in the training catalog under "certifications" or attending an academy gets you this. This is otherwise known as the "229".

I wasn't saying they had to be NYS certified firefighters, but they need to be NYS firefighters with that minimum training (which is what members of all departments in the town need to have within 1 year).

If you can't find other things for personnel to do then you have issues. Fire Prevention, equipment maintenance, 100 hour required training, building inspections are just a few that are all important things that need to get done. If someone is that worried about it, then hire more and get out and do EMS as well.

As usual, good points here. In this particular case, there is a Town of Colonie EMS department which is a mix of paid and unpaid staff. Some of those staff are FF's, a lot aren't. There have been people that have thought that the EMS Director wants to provide the town Fire Protection - but that hasn't happened yet. Likewise, there are building inspectors that don't want to be firefighters - I guess they are civil / professional engineers.

Firefighters don't get paid to just fight fires. The primary function of the fire service is to prevent fires and provide public education. You don't look at numbers based just on call volume.

Then they answer a call every other day. Which is worse, knowing that the protection is there (then again if you do it right, kinda hard to offer protection if every roman has his own chariot instead of doing the right thing by putting staffing together on apparatus, instead of tradition, ego and pride issues), OR knowing you have a problem getting out every other other call and not doing something about it.

This isn't that difficult and there are specific requirements for departments with career members that fall under a certain number of FF's. I can't remember what the number is, but the requirements are a bit less. Why would you want someone who doesn't meet the same minimal standards of all career firefighters...meaning they passed a test, passed a physical agility, a physical exam to ensure their safety, the public's safety and liablility?

So, by this logic perhaps we should do away with all volunteers? Or make all volunteers undertake the same 229 and annual training as career firefighters. In the case I'm talking about the work needs to get done, so why not have someone that can also provide emergency service. Again, this isn't any different from those few people left working in town in an office, or the local garage or where-ever that respond during the day.

It just doesn't add up. Get over it and do what is right. How many other businesses are run this way and hire technical staff to do work like this? Would you like to get on a plane that is fixed by the guy who cleans the windshield, but because he has a few pieces of paper that can allow him to perform mechanical work on the engine, but he doesn't have the same credentials or certification as the "mechanic", he works on the engine because the airport only has about 500-600 flights per year? Or the airline is non-union tempered or against the thought?

I'll answer that question.....NO there isn't any other business that is run in a similiar manner.

Actually, I believe that many airports (Westchester?) have people running multiple spots as the needs arise, ramp ops, ticket counter, baggage handler, oh and yes fire protection.

Maybe we as a society are tending away from big government, wanting lower taxes and as a society (however that is represented) deciding to fight for ourselves. Perhaps we should contract with Wackenhut or Boeing to provide fire protection. Isn't that what's happening out West with fire protection being provided through insurance companies - how much do you want to pay for a government run shared resource instead of paying for your own service? Stretching it some, but why doesn't the government pay for car insurance / coverage through registration fees instead of (forcing) private insurance. Actually this sounds like the whole health insurance debate.

Incidentally, again the department I was talking about, the staff there actually get paid more than many of the starting salaries for firefighters in Westchester - although again to be fair, they don't get the overtime, government pension or guaranteed salary increases that you do as a civil servant.

I think there are many here that would agree in general that Westchester could provide a better service by providing a consolidate county Fire Department (whether combination, career or paid on call) - but unfortunately we all know that isn't happening anytime soon.

Like it or not, I don't see this situation changing anytime soon. I don't see any legislation getting passed anytime soon to change it (imagine the stink FASNY would create!). There's decent demand - probably a lot of turnover while people wait to get on the job in the civil service as a firefighter. And whether through ignorance or not - the taxpayers are happy with the status quo (you've seen cases of taxpayers rejecting new firehouses - I don't think there are too many that are going to speak up for increased taxes).

Looking on the web I tried to find some info on the cost of a career department vs. volunteer, it's tough to find hard figures but there are a couple of articles. http://www2.gazette.com/display.php?id=1326764 talks about Falcon fire Protection District in Colorado which serves approx 23,000 residents over a 133 square mile area.

Falcon hired its first paid firefighters in 2000 and now employs 11, along with 25 volunteers. Property taxes to support the district went from $52.60 for a $200,000 house in 1998 to about $90.90 this year.

Which on the face of it seems like a pretty good deal.

Also an older article: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-1...efighters_x.htm

Which lead me to this USA Today comments: which I think sums it up pretty well (although I don't know if you necessarily need to start with 24/7):

To cover 24/7 you need to hire 4.8 people. With two trucks at minimum NFPA standard of 4 people plus support you need to hire around 20 to 22. Cost with fringe benefits and equipment means you start at close to 2 million and go from there. Many small municipal budgets do not approach this level. As a councilman I calculated a paid dept. with 5 tucks would double our Town budget. Can not be justified for limited number of calls. Maybe part time on call members might help the problem but tax payers are going to have to face the problem and decide what they want.

Posted by: Erik | Nov 21, 2006 4:38:28 PM

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Hey ladder 47, maybe you could call newsday and have there legal department research this. I still stick with my original statement! Remember I said to Volunteer and be employed by the same Dept.

That's ok I think they have there hands full with the pending federal fruad charges against 7 employees........also to answer your other question about if the housemen are forced to volunteer, not at all....in the past the housemen that have worked for my dept. were a 50 something non firefighter resident who was laid off or I guess let go from TWA. A 50 something mechanic that had to many health issues to ever think about running into a burning building. Only within the past 10 years have there been a few younger guys that were also members of the dept. to take these positions.

Also in my department this all started as "alarm maintenance" we had close to 300 gamewell street boxes and the original function of the person was to maintain the alarm system, I did some looking into our history book and as far back as the 30's we had an "alarm maintenance man" and he also responded to alarms and was a member of the dept.

Edited January 2, 2008 by Ladder47

[16fire5 693]

A comment on the Housemen....NO distrcit I know of has ever hired a houseman for the reason of solving the problem of not getting firefighters out on alarms. Like many of you have stated in posts what good is a 60 y/o f/f driving the ladder alone.....or 1 or 2 on an Engine alone. The Housemen were hired for just that, to maintain the station(s) and do the day to day business of the Fire Departments. Many are volunteer f/f's in the same department or elsewhere in nassau or suffolk The Departments have decided since they have the guys woprking and if they are interior class A firefighters to let some respond to alarms. Whats wrong with that? Again in my Department of close to 200 and 7 stations we are speaking of 3 people. It does not make a difference if they go or not. Some departments only let the housemen leave if its a working fire, and some are not allowed to go to calls at all. If the figure is right of the 1,200 I wonder how many are retired older guys working for the department, Class B firefighters not interior class, and just plain ordinary Joe's not firefighters working in those positions.

Stop the nonsence the hoseman idea is used to get the apparatus out. How big is the town of Hempstead you can't tell me that that town couldn't provide a townwide fully paid fire district. What I'm getting at is Hempstead is the largest population town in the US and densely populated.

Any place that requires FF1 or EMT for these jobs should be stopped by County Civil Service or Personnel Departments because it is clearly violating civil service law.

Call volume should not have a big bearing on hiring. Ability to respond to calls should be the deciding factor. Recently I heard a Putnam Department fail to get out on a gas odor call. It was a week night with no other calls at the time and a mutual aid department handled the call. This department recieves almost half a million dollars a year under contract. If you ask me that is a breach of contract. The taxpayers are getting nothing for what they are paying. If you must double the taxes for career firefighters at least you can gaurantee response of qualified personnel.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Stop the nonsence the hoseman idea is used to get the apparatus out. How big is the town of Hempstead you can't tell me that that town couldn't provide a townwide fully paid fire district. What I'm getting at is Hempstead is the largest population town in the US and densely populated.

Any place that requires FF1 or EMT for these jobs should be stopped by County Civil Service or Personnel Departments because it is clearly violating civil service law.

Call volume should not have a big bearing on hiring. Ability to respond to calls should be the deciding factor. Recently I heard a Putnam Department fail to get out on a gas odor call. It was a week night with no other calls at the time and a mutual aid department handled the call. This department recieves almost half a million dollars a year under contract. If you ask me that is a breach of contract. The taxpayers are getting nothing for what they are paying. If you must double the taxes for career firefighters at least you can gaurantee response of qualified personnel.

Stop the Nonsence? What brought that on....1 or 2 housemen...some are not even chauff's are going to get the rigs out and make a difference no way. Speaking from my department of 4 engines 1 heavy rescue and 2 ladders...one a tiller this is not going to solve the problem. There is no need for a paid fire dept. in the town of hempstead...the system still works. People hate to hear this that there are still some very busy departments with alot of work still getting rigs out all the time on the island that are all volunteer. granted anywhere else in the country an area like LI would be paid, but the system still works. Deal with it.

Also you state "If you must double the taxes for career firefighters at least you can gaurantee response of qualified personnel" What the mutual aide dept coming in is not qualified? Is this a career vs. volunteer issue?

Edited January 2, 2008 by Ladder47

[DCJPells 29]

ALS, I believe that departments that employ less than 5 career members do not need to send firefighters to the academy for the 229 certificate, thus they wouldn't need the CPAT (a requirement for the 229), and would only have to meet requirements for the job title via civil service.

That is correct (under GML-209-x and 426) but will limit a transfer to a larger Department if they wanted to. Pleasant Valley falls under the limit but does the right thing and sends them to the 229.

[robert benz 344]

That's ok I think they have there hands full with the pending federal fruad charges against 7 employees........also to answer your other question about if the housemen are forced to volunteer, not at all....in the past the housemen that have worked for my dept. were a 50 something non firefighter resident who was laid off or I guess let go from TWA. A 50 something mechanic that had to many health issues to ever think about running into a burning building. Only within the past 10 years have there been a few younger guys that were also members of the dept. to take these positions.

Also in my department this all started as "alarm maintenance" we had close to 300 gamewell street boxes and the original function of the person was to maintain the alarm system, I did some looking into our history book and as far back as the 30's we had an "alarm maintenance man" and he also responded to alarms and was a member of the dept.

47, not being a smartass with this question, what do the housemen do? paperwork? rig maint? equipment maint? along with cleaning up?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

47, not being a smartass with this question, what do the housemen do? paperwork? rig maint? equipment maint? along with cleaning up?

It's ok, I'm not here to try and casue a p$^%ing match, but they really are hired to do other things. They do routine maintenance on the rigs, complete work orders that are done for the rigs (replace lights, bulbs, fix sirens, mount tools, replace broken tools or repair) repair gear or bring it to be repaired if they can't, fuel the the trucks once a week, take rigs out to be serviced that are under warrenty, ladder testing, pump testing. They do the state fire reports as well as the attendance reports for the companies (after each alarm a check in sheet is faxed to the district building) Maintain the scba bottles, they have to be hydrostatic tested on a schedule, refill scba bottles at scenes and whenever it is needed. Mask fit testing, hand out pagers, gear, keep track of the yearly physicals and notify each member, we must do one during the month of their birthday. They keep up the grounds and the 3 buildings that are owned by the district. Paint, wax floors, snow plow duties when needed. Maintain the few remaining alarm boxes left. We have our own training tower in town and they basicly built the interior walls and change them around from time to time. Meet with outside vendors for any work that must be done to the buildings or rigs. These are only some of the things I see them doing. There are many things that have to be done by nfpa and Osha Im sure that have to be done once a year that I have no idea about. Dont most departments have a support staff to do these things? Larger departments have 30 or 40...so why is it hard to believe a smaller department can have 2-4 doing this.

I guess we will agree to disagree on the purpose of the housemen. Anyone coming to the island drop me a pm if you want to check out my department, your always welcome. Be safe.

[emt301 4]

Actually, I believe that many airports (Westchester?) have people running multiple spots as the needs arise, ramp ops, ticket counter, baggage handler, oh and yes fire protection.

You're right, just look at the Port Authority - officers double as Airport Rescue FireFighters (ARFF). However, many other airports have dedicated firefighting staff (no other responsibilities).

To clarify about Westchester - the fire fighting (ARFF) staff there are Airport Operations Coordinators & Supervisors, who handle all airport safety duties (other than law enforcement/ems). These employees handle aircraft rescue/firefighting (ARFF) and receive advanced training in such at special F.A.A. ARFF schools held by the Salt Lake City FD and the Pittsburgh FD. They also handle hazmat response, general security functions, airfield/airport safety inspections, snow removal, weather observations, oversight of fueling operations, and escorts of workers/visitors on the airfield. The Airport Operations Coordinators are members of I.A.F.F. local I-62.

Primary structural firefighting coverage is provided by mutual aid fire departments from the surrounding communities - though if notified by the airport tenant where the alarm/fire is occuring, the ARFF team will make an initial response until mutual aid arrives. Thereafter, the ARFF equipment usually returns to service in order to be ready for any aircraft emergencies thay might develop.

Non-safety functions at Westchester such as ticket sales, baggage, janitorial services, etc. are handled by other non-ARFF personnel.

Edited January 2, 2008 by emt301

[AFS1970 504]

Here's an odd little monkey wrench to throw in to the mix. I don't have my statute book with me, so I am doing this from memory, but I remember reading about a law in Connecticut that requires an employer to allow Volunteer Firefighters to leave for calls but does nto require employers to pay them for that time. Now if a fire department hires a guy to do paperwork, cleaning or whatever (other than firefighting) and they are a member of the department, wouldn't they have to let them "leave" to respond to the call? I think this might only be mandatory on employers with 10 or more employees, whcih most of these departments do not fall under, but it might be that one has to let the bookkeeper and the janitor go on calls if they want.

[NWFDMedic 58]

I know of quite a few places that have these firefighters in sheep's clothing. I am not a career firefighter, but I still think this is the wrong path for any volunteer department to tread down. Not only is it circumventing the real problem, it's actually creating more problems for the District, the Department, and actually the "janitor" as well.

Being relatively familiar with Civil Service laws, if this "janitor" is a full-time employee, shouldn't they require a CS test as a janitor? Now, if the "firefighter" you want to hire doesn't end up in the top 3, you'll be in quite a pickle.

If your department needs assistance of paid firefighters, then get paid firefighters. Shell out the extra money to get the proper training for them and don't sell short the "janitor", the department, the district, and worst of all the resident.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I was just thinking of something last night when starting a class.

If you're a janitor, mechanic, light fixture, or whatever other title they pay you less then what you should be getting paid for what you actually are doing....

if you take a fire training class and you fill out your orange card...under the section where is has a box for "volunteer firefighter" what do you do? You really aren't a volunteer...but you're not a career firefighter either....hmmmmm.

Do you cross it out and put "janitor" or "mechanic" or light fixture or whatever else your title is? Or do you write in there...I just hope I don't hurt and killed because my family will only get the bare minimum basic of benefits for what I actually am doing.

Edited January 4, 2008 by alsfirefighter

[DCJPells 29]

I was just thinking of something last night when starting a class.

If you're a janitor, mechanic, light fixture, or whatever other title they pay you less then what you should be getting paid for what you actually are doing....

if you take a fire training class and you fill out your orange card...under the section where is has a box for "volunteer firefighter" what do you do? You really aren't a volunteer...but you're not a career firefighter either....hmmmmm.

Do you cross it out and put "janitor" or "mechanic" or light fixture or whatever else your title is? Or do you right in there...I just hope I don't hurt and killed because my family will only get the bare minimum basic of benefits for what I actually am doing.

I like that alsFF

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Glad to know I can make you laugh Jeff.

Be safe...and PS I still can't believe it.

[Monty 35]

I was just thinking of something last night when starting a class.

If you're a janitor, mechanic, light fixture, or whatever other title they pay you less then what you should be getting paid for what you actually are doing....

if you take a fire training class and you fill out your orange card...under the section where is has a box for "volunteer firefighter" what do you do? You really aren't a volunteer...but you're not a career firefighter either....hmmmmm.

Do you cross it out and put "janitor" or "mechanic" or light fixture or whatever else your title is? Or do you write in there...I just hope I don't hurt and killed because my family will only get the bare minimum basic of benefits for what I actually am doing.

Easy - volunteer. Your primary job is administrator, mechanic (that happens to work on emrgency vehicles) that happens to volunteer to fight fires.

Now, if you spend over half your work day doing firematic things, responding to calls, daily equipment checks, training, fire prevention, code enforcement (bit of a questionable one as to whether this is firematic) - then you have more of a case for being a career firefighter - with all the normal full benefits.

In my personal experience where this has been used, the employees were spending no more than 10-20% on firematic activities. Maybe the folk in WC / LI spend 75% time and it's a different story - don't know what they're actually up to.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I hate to say it but it seems like this comes down to a career vs. Volunteer Union vs. Non union issue. I'm not saying its right but everyone else speaks whats on their mind...... The IAFF has been trying to get a foothold on Long Island for decades and its not going to happen anytime soon. I was speaking to someone about this and they told me that there is a Dept. in Suffolk county with an x amount of Housemen and they are in the IAFF!! Its from a good source, if thats the case why did they accept them? Union dues? Years ago a wise old FDNY Chief once told me hanging out inj our Voulunteer house..."laddie if the 10,000 volunteers on Long Island were card carrying, dues paying members of the IAFF you would never hear a peep from the Unions against the Vollies" Hey it is what it is.

Edited January 4, 2008 by Ladder47

[NWFDMedic 58]

In a lot of places, it's a volunteer v. career and a union v. non-union issue. However, people need to get past that issue and do what's right for the service as a whole. If you need career staff coverage at your house, they deserve the proper training and benefits afforded to a career firefighter. They also deserve appropriate compensation.

The same issue happens in EMS but it's worse... and don't get me started on that. It's my #1 pet peeve.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

You know what I notice sometimes. for a given area there is a paid FD with 2-4 on duty and and run 600 calls...they same area is sometimes covered by a separate EMS service that runs 2500 calls...but its all voulunteer? Go figure

Edited January 4, 2008 by Ladder47