Circumventing Having To Hire Career Firefighters

[Guest]

Recently, I've learned of a few volunteer fire companies in the area that employ secrataries, janitors, etc during the weekday hours. They are usually volunteer members of the same department. During their employment hours, if a call comes in, they are expected or it is implied that they respond.

My question is, is this move done to circumvent having to hire career firefighters?

Are the people filling these jobs hurting themselves and others? I mean, if you're filling this job as a daytime "janitor", couldn't you instead be a career firefighter with this department instead? And all the benefits that come along with that job. But instead you are keeping yourself out of that job? If you hire someone as a "janitor", and expect or imply that they have to respond to calls during the times that they are working, whether they clock out or not, they are performing the role of a firefighter, yet screwing themselves out of the benefits and protection that comes with such. Are they afraid that they wouldn't be able to make it through the civil service process, CPAT, or academy?

Why would a Department do this? Is this a way that Commisioners can supplement daytime staffing, without having to comply with civil service laws? I feel there should be a law about this. If you are employed by a fire district as a whatever, and you are expected to respond to calls, then you are a FIREFIGHTER and subject to the laws of civil service.

And, by doing this, do the commisioners admit that their daytime coverage is lacking? I mean, why would a relatively low volume volunteer fire company need a janitor or someone to keep the apparatus in order?

[firefighter36 52]

I know this happens alot on Long Island. Mechanics, Secretaries, Janitors, Etc. All stop doing their jobs when a call is recieved. What are the qualifications to apply for or be hired in one of these positions? Are fire or EMS certifcations taken into account? If so, what does that have to do with the ability to fill the job description of the above titles? Is having a Janitor or Mechanic a way to keep pride and egoes intact at a department that proudly proclaims themselves to be "100% Volunteer?"

Employees- do you work one of these jobs? What is your input? Do you have SUFFICIENT, QUALIFIED manpower on daytime calls if you respond? Or are you on your own? What is your compensation package? (Pay, Benefits, Retirement?)

We all read the Expose on Long Island, and we see the whole state being affected because of irresponsible spending. (GASB45, etc.)

Comissioners- what is your rationale behind employing for such a position? Is it to prevent a tax hike? Financial hardship? What is the bottom line? or is it to make sure there is money for SCUBA Training in the Bahamas, Race Teams, New Rigs, Huge Firehalls, etc.?

I guess all I want to know is:

1. Is this TRUELY legal?

2. Does it really improve a troubled department's response?

I'm not worried about unions, who is paid or volunteer, pride, politics, egoes, etc. All I see here is something that amounts to more fiscal irrespinsibility, just like we discussed in "Paying the Rent." Our responsibility to our taxpayers is to provide the best service for the best price. Are we doing that by hiring for these part time positions?

Edited December 31, 2007 by mbendel36

[AFS1970 504]

I know two people that have been in this position, one I think still is, one I know quit.

The first was in Long Island, and while he was an active member and allowed to clock out and respond to calls, this wasn't the case with all the station cleaners that were there. Two out of three were active memebrs and one was the wife of an active member. The married couple that both had these jobs were retired from someother job. I think it was more of a case of trying to steer a job to those who need it, a retired couple and a youg guy who was out of work when he joined the department.

The other Department I know of is in Connecticut (the other end of the state from me), and I don't know alot of details other than they have a few members arround during the day and they get some type of small stipend if they stay in quarters and do not just respond from home. Since these members would be avalible anyway, I think this may be more about reducing response times than anything else, but I don't really know.

As for this being legal, I really don't see why not. A town with career Firefighters not to far from me has no civil servants, only municipal employees. This really only effects one's job classification, from what I have been told. It just goes to show, that different departments come up with different ways to accomplish the same thing.

I also think that what you call a position probably has alot to do with what the primary duties are. The Department in Long Island had a large recreationa rea, and the station cleaner had to keep that clean as well as the offices, and the apparatus bays. From what I was told, this station did a bunch of EMS runs and not so much Fire duty, the cleaner was not an EMT. So maybe he was really just a janitor. There are still alot of folks in Long ISland who let employees go when there is a call, even the fire district.

[Monty 35]

My former department upstate started this almost 10 years ago. It was a combination of reasons that led the department to do this. Mainly the decrease in volunteering. Whereas you used to have people spending their time to clean the place, fix the trucks, do the books etc these days there are many more requirements than there used to be and on top of that people have less time to volunteer.

So, the membership approved a proposal by the Board of Directors to hire a janitor, mechanic and administrator. This for a department that runs about 700-800 calls a year or so. The department has had the same administrator since the program has begun but been through several mechanics and janitors. All the employees need to be NYS firefighters and because of Mutual Aid agreements, all need to be at least FF1 and Hazmat Ops.

As you can see from the call volume, they can go several days working from 7-4 without any calls, in which time they spend doing their job (ie entering financial details, membership reports, newsletters, filing reports, Preventive Maintenance etc). In fact, if for whatever reason there are enough members around to fill a crew, then the employees will remain behind, continuing with their paid work. This was reviewed by the lawyers before any vacanices were posted and determined to be lawful, and covered under vfbl.

I don't know what would be involved to become a true career/combination fire department, but I imagine a lot more, possibly voter referendum, increased taxes, collective bargaining etc. So, given that these employees are primarily something other than firefighters, who are encouraged to respond during their work day this situation works very well in this case. Things get done around the firehouse, there's additional manpower for a time that is tough to fill, there is very little difference to the tax payers of the district. Incidentally, in this case, I know there was no mention of '100% volunteer' or concern over pride or egos related to being 'volunteer'.

As to a couple of the questions, it certainly helps increase the departments response, and doesn't prevent members from responding (from what I've seen, I'd go as far to say that all the reponders up there are more qualfied than most down here). Actually, the department has gone to providing a stipend to increase reponse levels. I'm not sure the exact details but I belive it was up to $600 depending on the percentage of calls you make in the year - however this has failed to improve response levels significantly and they are considering stopping this practice. Again this was reviewed by counsel.

Lastly, the department joined the local Chamber of Commerce, and as such as been able to give the employees (and maybe even the members that want them) pretty decent medical and dental benefits. Not sure what they have in the way of retirement opportunities though.

Hope this gives some useful information on this topic.

Monty.

[gss131 212]

I seem to remember a few years back ,the IAFF had a problem with Purchase over this.

[firecapt32 282]

This has long been debated before-- it is a way around civil service-- the IAFF is against it the IAFC is against it The NYSPFFA is against it. One ,and I will only site one of many , problems is what happens if the "firefighter" gets hurt? Benifiis if you are a career firefighter far out way the benifits of being a "on call" or "part timer" .

I can list more:

Training

Haz-mat

advancement

retirement

medical coverage

life insurance

The list can go on

[weaselff 6]

If you cant get the rig out, it is time to hire paid FF's(at least drivers), end of story.

[Guest]

For those who are in or are thinking about being in this so called position of "janitor" or "administrator", I would think about it long and hard. As career firefighters, we have something called 207a which is similar to workmans' comp except we go out full pay when hurt. And, if we are injured to the point that we cannot preform our duties anymore, we can get a medical retirement that could be up to 100% of our pay and benifits. Think about how you would feed, cloth and provide shelter for your family if you got hurt at your "fire" job. Workmans' Comp? (Good luck with that) The Commisioners might be doing their jobs of protecting the community (and I stress might), but would they protect you if something happened? I doubt it. I think you'd be thrown under the bus!

On another note, it's a crutch anyway! What are you going to do with a piece of fire apparatus and a driver? I know, it sounds good on the radio that you get out all the time in a timely manner. Yay for that! But like the volunteers at my department, I don't think the commisioners that let this happen see the big picture. Driver alone does nothing!! Lets get the ladder truck to the scene with a 60 year old guy driving and no crew or a second due engine that has to lay a suppy line that can't leave someone at the hydrant to "make" it. If your going to staff your department, do it right!

[DCJPells 29]

I know a concern was brought about by the NYS Department of Labor in Long Island (go figure). If the janator, admin or what ever they are called, has to respond, mandated, they are not a volunteer firefighter. New York only has two, Paid and volunteer and they meet different standards. If paid, the Department must comply with all the applicable standards. Retirement, 207-a, Part 426, Etc. This will catch up with departments and bite them if the choose to ignore and operate this way.

[Monty 35]

If you cant get the rig out, it is time to hire paid FF's(at least drivers), end of story.

Or shut the department down, or merge with another department, or contract out to an another department, or go without fire protection. Not sure that can be done in NY but I'm pretty sure it can in other parts of the country.

As for hiring fire-fighters, what if there's a call every other day, say. Do you have the firefighter cutting grass? Oops - been there before.

What's the taxpayer going to say when they hear they're paying someone 40 hours to go to 5 automatic alarms? Sure, once, twice maybe more you get a worker but that's not my house (probably).

Different story if you're in a half busy area, or do EMS - oops we've been there before.

Yeah, a true career firefighter gets better benefits, but they also generally face a higher risk of injury (I know there are busy volunteer and slow career but in general I'll argue that a career dept is busier). For these guys in question, they could be as easily working for Walmart, local Tax Accountant etc and still respond when called.

It's the whole risk / reward equation and what are you willing to pay for. If you don't already have it, in the current climate it's going to be very difficult to get it now - especially if it costs more money.

About the only thing I could see to sell this is if you could say that going career would improve ISO, reduce insurance rates and those savings would offset tax increases then you might get most people to buy in to it.

[firecapt32 282]

On Long Island they are called "Housemen" and respond when a call comes in, DC Pells is correct in New York your a Volunteer or a Career and both have specific laws concerning them. I am not sure where "bunkers " come into play or how they are covered. But hireing someone then asking them to go to alarms just isnt right.

[firefighter36 52]

There are two departments in Dutchess that employ day-time firefighters. New Hackensack and Pleasant Valley. Work hours are Monday-Friday day time. After that, volunteer members handle calls. These career firefighters do the same station duties as "housemen" in addition to responding to calls. I don't understand why comissioners feel they need to circumvent civil service or not truely call the person they are paying to do the duties of a firefighter a firefighter. Just boggles my mind.

[lad41der 0]

Probably because they do not want to come to the realization that they need help. It boggles my mind that a volunteer can work for his department as a "janitor" and recieve a paycheck. I know someone that was going to do the "janitor" work and they didnt pay OT but if you are on a call after 1800hrs your a volunteer. But if your a member of another department how can you volunteer for both? Dont make any sense to me. Oh and what about if you get hurt? who will pay for that? I know it sounds good to some younger people but if you stand back and look at the big picture its not worth it.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

In Nassau and Suffolk counties there is a civil service title of "Firehouse Maintainer", there is no test for it but there is a title.

The Departments I know that allow the guys to go to calls (and not every dept. allows it) they "punch" out and become Firefighters and are covered in case of injury under the Departments coverage as they are acting as Volunteer Firefighters. They have to make up the hours during the week. So for example one maintainer will be doing the yearly scba mask fit tests at night on a Monday...you may think he's making OT but he is making up hours on straight time. Refilling scba bottles at fires, snow plow duty ect....

I'm not saying its right, but its getting jobs done that have to be done, and of course paying not nearly the amount a paid F?F title would receive.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

All the employees need to be NYS firefighters and because of Mutual Aid agreements, all need to be at least FF1 and Hazmat Ops.

If you have the least as stated...FF 1 and HazMat Ops...then you are not a NYS Certified Firefighter. Only obtaining the certification by either the list as stated in the training catalog under "certifications" or attending an academy gets you this. This is otherwise known as the "229".

What's the taxpayer going to say when they hear they're paying someone 40 hours to go to 5 automatic alarms? Sure, once, twice maybe more you get a worker but that's not my house (probably).

The "taxpayer" is only going to say what they are educated about or what is told to them through run of the mill mouthing off through 2 to 7 degrees of separation.

If you can't find other things for personnel to do then you have issues. Fire Prevention, equipment maintenance, 100 hour required training, building inspections are just a few that are all important things that need to get done. If someone is that worried about it, then hire more and get out and do EMS as well.

Firefighters don't get paid to just fight fires. The primary function of the fire service is to prevent fires and provide public education. You don't look at numbers based just on call volume.

As for hiring fire-fighters, what if there's a call every other day

Then they answer a call every other day. Which is worse, knowing that the protection is there (then again if you do it right, kinda hard to offer protection if every roman has his own chariot instead of doing the right thing by putting staffing together on apparatus, instead of tradition, ego and pride issues), OR knowing you have a problem getting out every other other call and not doing something about it.

This isn't that difficult and there are specific requirements for departments with career members that fall under a certain number of FF's. I can't remember what the number is, but the requirements are a bit less. Why would you want someone who doesn't meet the same minimal standards of all career firefighters...meaning they passed a test, passed a physical agility, a physical exam to ensure their safety, the public's safety and liablility?

It just doesn't add up. Get over it and do what is right. How many other businesses are run this way and hire technical staff to do work like this? Would you like to get on a plane that is fixed by the guy who cleans the windshield, but because he has a few pieces of paper that can allow him to perform mechanical work on the engine, but he doesn't have the same credentials or certification as the "mechanic", he works on the engine because the airport only has about 500-600 flights per year? Or the airline is non-union tempered or against the thought?

I'll answer that question.....NO there isn't any other business that is run in a similiar manner.

[Rimrockny24 0]

I remember hearing a while back that Hyde Park Fire Department had "janitors" on during the day. Is this correct, and if so how does it work? Do they clock out when going to calls? What happens if they are hurt while on a call? What type of certifications are required?

[Bnechis 3,961]

As for hiring fire-fighters, what if there's a call every other day, say. Do you have the firefighter cutting grass? Oops - been there before.

What's the taxpayer going to say when they hear they're paying someone 40 hours to go to 5 automatic alarms? Sure, once, twice maybe more you get a worker but that's not my house (probably).

About the only thing I could see to sell this is if you could say that going career would improve ISO, reduce insurance rates and those savings would offset tax increases then you might get most people to buy in to it.

The ISO route is the way to justify it. While we are doing 9,000 runs/yr, we cost the average taxpayer $325/yr but save them $900/yr (even if we never respond to a call we are saving property owners $$$).

Also consider the ISO manpower requirement:

36ff's & an IC for "on-call" (volunteers or paid on call)

12ff's & an IC for "staffed" (career or onduty in station vol)

these nembers are required on every call. How many VFD's these days get 36/1 personnel on a fire call?

[Bnechis 3,961]

On Long Island they are called "Housemen" and respond when a call comes in, DC Pells is correct in New York your a Volunteer or a Career and both have specific laws concerning them. I am not sure where "bunkers " come into play or how they are covered. But hireing someone then asking them to go to alarms just isnt right.

The Newsday Series stated that combined there are 1,200 Housemen on Long Island. Eliminate the duplication of depts and this goes along way toward the total needed force.

[firefighter36 52]

This isn't that difficult and there are specific requirements for departments with career members that fall under a certain number of FF's. I can't remember what the number is, but the requirements are a bit less. Why would you want someone who doesn't meet the same minimal standards of all career firefighters...meaning they passed a test, passed a physical agility, a physical exam to ensure their safety, the public's safety and liablility?

ALS, I believe that departments that employ less than 5 career members do not need to send firefighters to the academy for the 229 certificate, thus they wouldn't need the CPAT (a requirement for the 229), and would only have to meet requirements for the job title via civil service.

[richg67 0]

Is this not a symptom of a bigger problem? Staffing? regarless of Paid or Volunteer, if equipment does not show up, or with 1 FF, we really cant do much, can we?

The hiring of paid janitors is a slippery slope, and yes, I believe can cause problems. You have FFs with that in between status, not volunteer, not Paid, an d an employer (the district) that is kidding themselves that they dont have a manpower problem. What I always say is "Everything is OK until somebody gets hurt!"

How about the guys and gals that work for the highway/recreaction/water departments and go to every call there is? Does that constitute the same PROBLEM?

Any see the article from around the Boston area where Paid depts are showing up with 1 FF on a ladder. The taxpayers had a revolt there and they can not raise taxes, in fact, they are laying off FFs. What happens when a FF gets hurt? or residents get injured or killed due to lack of manpower?

Rich Giuliani

[x134 46]

Rich , Not sure what you mean by in between status? Meaning waiting to get a full time F.F. JOB? But if they hire you off the County list , you won't appear anymore for the job. If not hired off the list as "a janitor " your name stays active on the list. And if you are a janitor why can't you volunteer if not employed as a firefighter? Hyde Park has or had a janitor and I believe that person still volunteers. I agree that some departments do have a manpower problem. But the powers that be in those districts don't want to come to the realization that they have to hire people, and don't want to raise taxes. But hireing is only a start. As you said arriving with only 1 F.F. is still a problem.

[richg67 0]

Rich , Not sure what you mean by in between status? Meaning waiting to get a full time F.F. JOB? But if they hire you off the County list , you won't appear anymore for the job. If not hired off the list as "a janitor " your name stays active on the list. And if you are a janitor why can't you volunteer if not employed as a firefighter? Hyde Park has or had a janitor and I believe that person still volunteers. I agree that some departments do have a manpower problem. But the powers that be in those districts don't want to come to the realization that they have to hire people, and don't want to raise taxes. But hireing is only a start. As you said arriving with only 1 F.F. is still a problem.

What I meant by in between status is that as "janitors" they are not really paid FF, but are really not"pure" volunteers anymore. Why I dont support "Janitors" .....the person truly becomes a low paid FF, and the district or hiring dept is just avoiding the reality of having to hire FFs.

We need to stop thinking as Paid or volunteer, and what is the best for our Customer. Brunacini in Phoenix got it right, customer service. Manpower problems, paid or volunteer, are just that, manpower problems. The leaders are responsible to recognize that, and then fix the issue, paid, volunteer, EMS, fire.......does not matter. Does our customer get the best if any servive when nobody goes?

I cringe when I hear 3rd, call or a mutual aid to cover a call (both EMS, and now, Fire) and wonder where the leader of the FD are and what they are doing to fix it. I know these are not popular decisions, particularly raisisng taxes, but, after being a volunteer for 30+ years in Union Vale, there may be a day where we have paid FF. We did have the vision to fix our daytime EMS problem, an expensive but necessarry act to be sure our residents (customers) had daytime EMS coverage.

Rich G

[demps121 39]

I believe to volunteer and be paid in the same department even as a janitor is a violation of the Fair Labor Standards Act, that is Federal Law. Check it out.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

The Newsday Series stated that combined there are 1,200 Housemen on Long Island. Eliminate the duplication of depts and this goes along way toward the total needed force.

Be careful what you read from that paper...they are the same paper that the feds are ready to sentence 7 because of a phoney circualtion #'s scam.

Ok I'm a Long Island F/F, and I see how we are always taking a beating for certain things....rightly so in some areas but thats mostly Fire Districts and there are now new rules to help "police" the spending of some. Also that series singled out maybe a dozen Departments out of almost 200 in nassau and Suffolk. Don't put us all in the same group.

A comment on the Housemen....NO distrcit I know of has ever hired a houseman for the reason of solving the problem of not getting firefighters out on alarms. Like many of you have stated in posts what good is a 60 y/o f/f driving the ladder alone.....or 1 or 2 on an Engine alone. The Housemen were hired for just that, to maintain the station(s) and do the day to day business of the Fire Departments. Many are volunteer f/f's in the same department or elsewhere in nassau or suffolk The Departments have decided since they have the guys woprking and if they are interior class A firefighters to let some respond to alarms. Whats wrong with that? Again in my Department of close to 200 and 7 stations we are speaking of 3 people. It does not make a difference if they go or not. Some departments only let the housemen leave if its a working fire, and some are not allowed to go to calls at all. If the figure is right of the 1,200 I wonder how many are retired older guys working for the department, Class B firefighters not interior class, and just plain ordinary Joe's not firefighters working in those positions.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I believe to volunteer and be paid in the same department even as a janitor is a violation of the Fair Labor Standards Act, that is Federal Law. Check it out.

It's not.....there have been "housemen" working for FD's on the island since the 50's...maybe even earlier.

[demps121 39]

Hey ladder 47 are you sure it is not, just because it has been going on does not mean it is not a violation of the fair labor standards act, I am still sticking with my original statement, I will be pulling out my old books and doing research for you. I will get back to you on this.

Edited January 1, 2008 by demps121

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Hey ladder 47 are you sure it is not, just because it has been going on does not mean it is not a violation of the fair labor standards act, I am still sticking with my original statement, I will be pulling out my old books and doing research for you. I will get back to you on this.

The only reason I say this is that Newsday spent all that mmoney and time on doing that series on the fire service on LI.....they went after anything they could to hammer certain districts and departments, if this practice was in the wrong I am sure it would have been brought out and a stop would have been put to this. Also every district has a lawyer, I am sure if something was not right it would be brought to their attention...espiecially regarding employees, also there is an official title with the nassau county civil service of "firehouse maintainer" If it was against some sort of law someone or some union would have put a stop to it along time ago.

[demps121 39]

Hey ladder 47, maybe you could call newsday and have there legal department research this. I still stick with my original statement! Remember I said to Volunteer and be employed by the same Dept.

Edited January 2, 2008 by demps121

[Bnechis 3,961]

I believe to volunteer and be paid in the same department even as a janitor is a violation of the Fair Labor Standards Act, that is Federal Law. Check it out.

FLSA clearly states you can volunteer and work in the same place as long as you do not do the same function in each. For example you can not be a paid ff in the same dept you are a volunteer in. Federal courts in region #3 ruled that a Maryland career ff who volunteered in a different house in the same dep was owed OT for all his vol hours under FLSA, and all others inhis situation were also.

In other cases it means if you work as a clerk for a church, you can volunteer for that church to do painting as long as its not part of your job function.

The law was designed to protect workers from the employeer "forcing" them to volunteer.

[demps121 39]

Thanks for clearing that up. Your last statement is very interesting, in how it relates to apparatus getting out, being taken by the housemen, Question are they forced to be volunteers? Is that why they were hired? alot of questions come to mind. It is just an interesting issue to discuss. How are laws applied? Ect.Ect.