Mutual Aid - Who Covers Who

[JBE 328]

Seth - Your comments were well said and clearly communicated. When you said "For example, maybe Mount Vernon should fire their fire commisioners, and contract with Yonkers for fire protection. All the Mount Vernon staff could be transferred to YFD, and get the better pay, benefits, and most importantly, proper staffing and equipment-that they and their citizens rightly deserve." you may have hit a potential bullseye, but I am not sure if it would go anywhere in Westchester County.

Like many areas throughout the country, rather than having individual city, town or village fire departments, some have adoped "District", "Regional" or "County" Fire Departments. Correct me please if I am not correct, but wasn't there some recent talk about "Merging" several Fire Departments (ie: New Rochelle, Mount Vernon, and Pelham)? Maybe having a Southern Westchester Fire District, comprising of Yonkers, Mount Vernon, New Rochelle, Pelham, Pelham Manor, Eastchester, Hastings, Dobbs Ferry, Greenville, Larchmont and Ardsley, maybe an idea worth looking into. As well, you could have a Central Westchester Fire District, comprising of Elmsford, Hartsdale, Fairview, White Plains, Harrison, North White Plains, Rye, Blind Brook, Mamaroneck, and Port Chester. And then a Northern Westchester Fire District, with those combined communities within the Northern Section of Westchester County.

All would be controlled and managed by the Westchester County - Department of Emergency Services, dispatched by 60 Control, with sets of District Cheifs, Assistant Chiefs, etc.

Now for the complicated part. You have the Unions that would certainly not be in favor of such a plan. Then getting all of the Cities, Towns and Villages that dispatch their own Fire Departments (ie: Mount Vernon, Yonkers, etc) to all work out of 60 Control in Valhalla, would certainly present another roadblock to hurdle.

Just a concept that I would be interested in hearing what others might have to say about?

While it looks like a great idea on paper, and very well thought out, the negatives outweigh the positives of it. The biggest obstacle is money. Are we talking paid full time staffing?? Or, are we looking at a model like Baltimore County Maryland, where you have a paid County FD, and then a number of volunteer houses scattered throughout??

There go the already high taxes going that much higher beyond stratospheric range. Secondly, like you said the unions would probably not want to go along with this. I hear discussions like this brought up amongst the Long Island guys in my job. My own feeling, if this had been done, say 30 plus years ago, it might have worked with less opposition than you may get if someone tried to implement it today.

Edited January 3, 2008 by JBE

[61MACKBR1 222]

Yes, very similiar to Baltimore County, with those current communities, where there is either a Combined Paid and Volley or All Volley, being placed in with All Paid. But, as you indicated, the Unions would not approve such a concept, in today's day and age, where you would have a merger of any Paid Departments with either a Paid/Volley or all Volley. This is the direction that such a plan would need to take, in order to, say put an identical plan, that Baltimore County, MD. has here in Westchester County, NY. From a Financial, Practice and Standards, and Ensurance of Class of Firefighter equal throughout the county, such a plan, in my eyes, would make sense. But, again, the Unions would never go for it.

[mfc2257 464]

Everyone keeps saying that the Unions wouldn't go for it and you're right, there would be a huge fight. But what the unions are missing is that this is a win-win for everyone involved including the taxpayer. The problem is that Unions view this as a loss of control when in actuality it is a gain of control. And people are hung up on the fact that NYS is home rule. If something is good for the safety of the taxpayers, then it can be lobbied for and legislation passed to change it. THIS WORKS elsewhere in the USA very well. It only needs people to fight for change to make it happen.

Creating a county fire department where a central authority creates the SOP's and SOG's as well as hires the career FF's will only help to bring MORE career firefighers to Westchester, not less. The model is already set in Baltimore, Anne Arundel, Montgomory, Prince Georges counties in MD, and Louden & Fairfax counties in VA.

All the 100% career departments Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, New Rochelle, Eastchester, etc. all retain their own unique department identities (apparatus colors, uniforms, station names, etc). The FF's all become part of one union and payroll where the best of the best from all the small unions can fight for wages, benefits, etc. The union will then be able to fight for more FF's in Mt. Vernon or other understaffed municipalities because they will have the strength of a county-wide career pool of FF's to assign to them. A WIN for Union FF's in WC.

Combination department Career FF's will fall into the county pool as well.

All the 100% volunteer departments retain their identies as well. They can continue to have vollie chiefs and their own apparatus, but they will fall under the command of a career or volunteer battalian chief depending on the area (a battalian chief with real command authority not the setup for mutual aid coordinators in place today). All volunteer FF's in the county will be required to maintain the same training for the same positions regardless of what department they are a member of so that when career and volunteer FF's are interacting there is no question whether or not the vollie is trained. For vollie departments who cannot meet a minimum standard of response time and manpower per rig, the county will begin to mandate the introduction of career staffing into those stations as it is needed. A WIN for Union FF's in WC.

For areas of the county that do not have adequate fire coverage due to odd station placements of yester year, the county can put new all career stations in place with county owned apparatus. A WIN for Union FF's in WC.

The way to get municipalities to conceed power to a central authority is by taking over the costs of maintaining, fueling, and insuring all fire apparatus in the county regardless of who owns it. It also ensures that municipalities can recieve career FF's when the time comes without having to go to the residents for buget approval. For municipalities who won't participate, they are removed from the mutual aid plan, they are not dispatched by the county, and essentially put on an island.

If a station needs a piece of apparatus an cannot provide it on their own, the county will provide it. If it's a career station then that's more career FF's to staff it. If it's a vollie station and the vollies aren't capable of staffing it, then the county can assign career men to it. A WIN for Union FF's in WC.

Everyone wins here through:

1: Stronger career firefighting force with more FF's in Westchester who are all on the same page and pull from a more powerful leadership structure.

2: Stronger volunteer firefighting force becuase only those who are interested in training and running calls will be left. All others won't want to adhere to the rules or committ the time to maintain an acceptable active status as defined by the county.

3: Taxpayers know that they are recieving good protection because the county is monitoring the performance of career, combo, vollie responses.

4: Taxpayers will pay for less apparatus because the enormus duplication of apparatus will be eliminated when the county determines what they're willing to pay to purchase or maintain (if the municipalities purchase).

5: Apparatus response to alarms will be standardized through the implementation of a true chain of command from the top down that will include automatic box assignements for every inch of WC

6: Taxpayers in the end will pay less overall for fire protection because a county led department can offer economies of scale in purchasing, maintaince, and reduction in the need for overtime.

7: The list goes on, and on, and on.

8: The loser here.... The individual egos that get off by being the guy in charge of an individual department because now they will need to follow someone elses rules.

Edited January 3, 2008 by mfc2257

[turk182 37]

How does anyone know what the unions would or would not do. I could say the exact same thing about the volunteers. I see it as the volunteers having far more to lose then any union. All those little chieftons (sp) stand to lose a lot of control and that is their biggest fear. Even in the smallest combo depts. the career end remains para military and could easily fall in line with changes. Can the same be said about "all" volunteer depts. I just do not see them doing well with someone telling them what to do. I am sure there would be exceptions on both sides but who really stands to lose more.

[FirNaTine 370]

The Vulcan Society would never go for it and would fight it tooth and nail. Hell, you even have City Officials who only want to hire residents within their own juristiction and not hire others from outside municipalities. They only want one list and that's a residency list. They're not interested in hiring the best of the best, just giving everyone and their brother a job who needs one. It's called the Ernie Davis mentality of hiring! "Wise should I'ze give dose guys a job when dey donts even lives here in mize city and pay taxes dat I'ze don't evens pay. SIT!"

Edited January 3, 2008 by FirNaTine

[mfc2257 464]

How does anyone know what the unions would or would not do. I could say the exact same thing about the volunteers. I see it as the volunteers having far more to lose then any union. All those little chieftons (sp) stand to lose a lot of control and that is their biggest fear. Even in the smallest combo depts. the career end remains para military and could easily fall in line with changes. Can the same be said about "all" volunteer depts. I just do not see them doing well with someone telling them what to do. I am sure there would be exceptions on both sides but who really stands to lose more.

The volunteers stand to lose more if it is power that they are after. But Unions don't want to share firegrounds with vollies if they don't have to and given the choice they won't under the current WC conditions.

In the end, the ranks of volunteers are dropping nationwide so they are losing anyway. If a county wide department is in place, it makes the supplementation of OR transition to career staffing so much easier. What is avoided here is the horrible period that is bound to happen where a major fire or loss of life occurs because a volunteer OR career department that couldn't meet response criteria was allowed to continue to be the sole, un-supplemented provider of protection to a certain area.

Lets face it, just because the guys in Mt. Vernon are collecting a paycheck doesn't mean that they are safe given the staffing and apparatus issues over recent years. The same holds true for vollies in a house that can't get one of their 10 shiny rigs out in the middle of the day.

Coming together will only help. It brings the best of the best to the top on both the career and vollie side. It also puts a supervisory structure in place to make sure that everyone can rely on a similar level of response and training regardless of whether or not it is 4 career guys on a Yonkers engine or 4 vollies on a Millwood engine.

[robert benz 344]

How does anyone know what the unions would or would not do. I could say the exact same thing about the volunteers. I see it as the volunteers having far more to lose then any union. All those little chieftons (sp) stand to lose a lot of control and that is their biggest fear. Even in the smallest combo depts. the career end remains para military and could easily fall in line with changes. Can the same be said about "all" volunteer depts. I just do not see them doing well with someone telling them what to do. I am sure there would be exceptions on both sides but who really stands to lose more.

Turk is 100% right about the Unions yea there would be things to work out but a union with 400-500 members is stronger than individual 50 - 175 member locals

[exmrvfc 0]

YFD is no longer the crutch, NRFD is. MVFD brings them in to cover and to the scene but at least they send rigs to cover NRFD. Pelham and Pelham Manor calls them in to work at just about every job. In Larchmont they are providing the basic response as LFD only had 3 career and 5 volunteers on the inital response (before callbacks). Eight firefighters is not going to put out the bread & butter job you are talking about.

[61MACKBR1 222]

Some Great Ideas have come forward on this, that would certain solve a number of issues throughout the county (Mount Vernon, etc, etc). Now what would the next steps be? OR - Is this just a "Pie in the Sky" concept. Any input from anyone within the Westchester County Department of Emergency Services?

[gss131 212]

Turk is 100% right about the Unions yea there would be things to work out but a union with 400-500 members is stronger than individual 50 - 175 member locals

wow with that many guys ,we could probably get detergent that suds up,lol

[mfc2257 464]

Some Great Ideas have come forward on this, that would certain solve a number of issues throughout the county (Mount Vernon, etc, etc). Now what would the next steps be? OR - Is this just a "Pie in the Sky" concept. Any input from anyone within the Westchester County Department of Emergency Services?

It's a pie in the sky concept in Westchester because no one wants to be the ones to take the first step in gathering the departments (career/vollie) and unions together in a common cause, second step to approach local government as a unified group, and third step approach state government to legislate it into a legal reality.

Someone's got to be willing to stick their neck out there to get the ball rolling. I used to preach about this all the time, but most people were afraid of change and how it would effect their slice of the power so they instantly took a defensive view on the matter. Now I'm 1000miles away and now no one really cares what I have to say.

I'm surprised anyone even took the time to read my thoughts.

[LTNRFD 266]

mcf2257 You have brought up a lot of good points. I like that you also put together an approach as to how to accomplish, or at least how to start and a few different avenues to take. At least more then one person has agreed to your concept. No journey can take place until the first step is taken.

[FirNaTine 370]

Like I said earlier, this may be the way to go for smaller Combo Depts. or even the ever dwindling Volunteer Depts. that honestly don't have the call volume, but should not be the cure all for a Dept. such as FDMV. It's 2008 for GOD's sake not 1808. The monies and means are there to properly staff and equip these Career Depts., you just need the City Officials to show just as much initiative in accomplishing this goal, as you want them to in finding a means to merge Depts. into one or two Cnty. Depts. When you have City Officials who don't give a hoot about their Emergency Services, such as in the Vern, m/a abuse becomes the answer to all your problems. Hell, MT.Vernon doesn't even pay for EMS services, they rely on m/a ambulances. They haven't signed a contract with Empress in yrs. Enough said!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Excellent post Seth and you hit the nail on the head. I guarantee a majority of times its politics and personalities that stand in the way of increasing staffing levels and purchasing new equipment, not because of a lack of $$$$. Hell, with all the grants now available to allocate additional equipment and staffing, there's no reason CAREER DEPTS. should be shorthanded. You just need somebody to take the bull by the horns, show a little initiative, and start applying for them, instead if sitting around all day complaining. There's even professional grant writers out there for hire.

While it may not be a lack of money in the community, it is a lack of total tax base. and its being split by FD, PD, EMS, Parks, etc. and the politcal leadership gives the money to what they think gets them the votes. Nobody wants to fund the FD, until they are dialing 911, because they don't believe they are ever going to need it personnaly (check on the Larchmont fire...that may be the exception).

Which grants would those be? New Rochelle got a SAFER Grant (the only one out there for personel), they only pay 20% of the cost over 4 yrs. thats not a grant...its a coupon. We also got 6 Fire Act grants and they cover 70-95% of the cost (based on population) they dont cover it all. In fact Our 2006 grant for turnouts was cut down to the price of the cheapest gear that in concept met NFPA standards, infact the standard changed between writing the grant and recieving it and they refused to pay the difference, which would mean we could not buy the gear, because it was substandard. We chose to buy the proper gear and actually paid 34% of the cost (should have been 20%). I am not complaining about these grants, they have been a major help. But they do not solve the problem. Also be careful about the pro grant writers, 1) you must pay them 1st (Federal rules) even if you do not get the grant, 2) some of them have lower sucsess rates than inhouse, 3) A dept in West. Mass got massive grants with one and then found out it may have all been a fraud.

All too often many think consolidation or merging Depts. is the answer. I say that should be used as a last resort. Maybe it would be justifiable for the smaller combo Depts. in lower West.Cnty but not for a larger City such as MT.Vernon, especially in todays day in age. There should be no reason for it.

1) If not consolidation what do you suggest to solve these issues?

2) If depts have been asking for manpower and equipment, etc. for 20, 30 yrs when does this become the "last resort"?

3) If this is not a way to solve some of MT Vernons issues, what do you suggest?

4) Explain "especially in todays day in age"

Besides, if one Depts. standards are lower than a neighboring Depts. standards as far as hiring practices, how could you even justify it. I know I'd be pretty pissed off if my Dept. merged with a neighboring Dept. that had lower or even no standards at all for becoming a ff.

What standards would those be? If you are claiming that MVFD uses a different standard than say one of the combo departments, you are correct. The 4 cities testing has to meet the Federal Consent decre which is stricter than the Towns / Village Civil Service Requirements.

More important dont all career ff's now have to pass the same test in the 1st yr?

and was known for skipping guys when it came to promotions and holding on too and carrying thru to their retirement incompetent individuals. Why should someone get the same salary as me that didn't have to meet the same stringent criteria that I had to, and were practically handed their job! Then again, maybe that would be the answer to this never ending saga!

Setting up a performance (standards) driven department is the best way to solve that

[Bnechis 3,961]

Turk is 100% right about the Unions yea there would be things to work out but a union with 400-500 members is stronger than individual 50 - 175 member locals

Fairfax county FD's Union is very strong they play the political game and they get what they want...and they are in a right to work state...meaning the union is of little protection. But the strength in numbers...they get results

[Bnechis 3,961]

It's a pie in the sky concept in Westchester because no one wants to be the ones to take the first step in gathering the departments (career/vollie) and unions together in a common cause, second step to approach local government as a unified group, and third step approach state government to legislate it into a legal reality.

Someone's got to be willing to stick their neck out there to get the ball rolling. I used to preach about this all the time, but most people were afraid of change and how it would effect their slice of the power so they instantly took a defensive view on the matter. Now I'm 1000miles away and now no one really cares what I have to say.

I'm surprised anyone even took the time to read my thoughts.

The career chiefs did. they got a state grant and commissioned PACE Univ. to do a study....details to follow

[ex-commish 490]

Let me ask a question, and I believe I have asked this before. This subject has been brought up numerous times in the past. Why doesn't the county Fire Coordinator step up and say, "We are going to formulate a county wide Mutual Aid system."

1. The Coordinator and the Deputy Coordinators set up the plan and tell the chiefs of each department that this is how it's going to be.

2. Any issues with it will be taken into consideration, and they will try to accomodate the requests of the chiefs.

3. Mutual Aid will be dispatched by location of incident, and CLOSEST AVAIALABLE resources that the IC requests.

I don't believe the coordinator has that authority. A chief has the authority to say who is wanted. Something I have been against. I would rather just call 60 and say send me an engine, truck, fast, etc and let them worry about who is coming assuming the closest resource is who is being summoned. The IC should only hae to worry about the incident.

[61MACKBR1 222]

Based upon the post copied below, maybe we are headed in the right direction. I still contend that a County Run, Fire Department, divided into either 2, 3 or 4 separate districts would be the answer. This way, all areas of the county would be properly staffed, equiped, and managed, and NOT left up to the political paperpushers within the City, Town, and Village Governments to control. Think about a County Run Fire District in Southern Westchester, that say for a would respond to a alarm of fire on Bronx River Road in Yonkers, near Midland Avenue, could have YFD Station 13 (313 & 73) respond along with Station 4 from FDMV (with, say Engine 1 and a Ladder Company Housed there), YFD Squad 11 and say Bronxville Engine 29. These stations would be in very close proximaty to the alarm, without having to have Apparatus from YFD Station 12 (Fortfield Ave) or Station 14 (North Central Park Ave) dispatched to come (Unless needed for a Multiple Alarm Fire). This would also save on the wear and tear of the Apparatus, resulting in longer life (and less cost for maintenence). I say lets do it.

"The career chiefs did. they got a state grant and commissioned PACE Univ. to do a study....details to follow""

[fyrlt17 13]

We just have to look south to FDNY and NYPD, Thats right if we are going to talk about consolidation lets not forget the PD.

We are only about a 100 years behind New York City!

New York and all the boroughs (which are actually seperate counties) is like a big county government.

I'm not up on my New York History but I remember reading some place that back at the turn of the last Century (1900) New York wanted to make Westchester a borough.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This way, all areas of the county would be properly staffed, equiped, and managed, and NOT left up to the political paperpushers within the City, Town, and Village Governments to control.

Are you saying that political paperpushers dont exist in county government only in smaller jurisdictions?

The local papers have spent a lot of ink on county politics lately and I have not seen too many letters of support in the letters to the editor section.

[61MACKBR1 222]

Yes, there are "Paperpushers" within our County Government. But, with a Unified County Fire District, with lower taxpayer costs, and allot of better bargining for Grant Moneies coming from the County Government for County Programs (such as a Combined Fire District) then you will see less politics and more action.

[FirNaTine 370]

Just out of curiosity, are any Yonkers FD Chiefs members of the Career Chiefs Association and are they in full support of the Study?

[61MACKBR1 222]

Good Question. I would presume (and would think would be logical) that YFD Pagano, NRFD Kiernan, FDMV Everett, and the White Plains Commissioner of Public Safety would all be part of the study. Does anyone know who is on the panel?

[x635 4,066]

Even if we did go with a Countywide fire department, which I think is a good idea in some ways, I don't think Yonkers would be a part of it.

They have a very good system in place right now that serves them well. There is no incentive for them to "sell out" to a County Fire Department. If anything, the County or other fire districts should contract with Yonkers and New Rochelle in some areas to provide leadership and staffing.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just out of curiosity, are any Yonkers FD Chiefs members of the Career Chiefs Association and are they in full support of the Study?

All of the career chiefs were in agreement to have the study performed, even the depts that would not be included in the study, supports the study

[Bnechis 3,961]

Good Question. I would presume (and would think would be logical) that YFD Pagano, NRFD Kiernan, FDMV Everett, and the White Plains Commissioner of Public Safety would all be part of the study. Does anyone know who is on the panel?

There are multiple panels, some have yet to be completely established (they in many cases would more likely be needed towards the end of the study)

Panels operating now include:

Operations (which is working on the mapping and layout of the system, particularly in relation to NFPA 1710, Fire Service Acredidation, and ISO)

Legal

Financial.

Future Panels that have been identified, but have not been formed include (but not limited to)

UFFA (thru the 5th District NYSPFFA)

Volunteers (to cover the volunteer issues in the district that have them)

Operation Details (SOP's, Dispatch, intigration issues, etc.)

Political (including Fire Commissioners)

etc.

[E-38VMFD 0]

The whole mutual aid system still amazes me. For years, Rye and Port Chester had a strong system in place for each other. Then personalities conflicted and it all went to hell. Take last nights fire in Rye for example. I am not in any way trying to offend the companies that responded and provided assistance to this incident. Port Chester has 5 engines 2 ladders, and a heavy rescue that are available and respond fully staffed. I know that we wont send all of the volunteer companies, but this is what we have. Why would Rye call for help from such distances as West Harrison or the Town of Mamaroneck when help is just 5 minutes away? The decisions from some people just amaze me.

The Village Of Mamaroneck has always called PCFD first for M/A, Mainly beacuase of a Good Relationship and The fact that they come with Manpower and lots of it

[Remember585 815]

My question is do you call a FAST team that is 15-20 minutes away or do you call an engine, truck or rescue to do a search that is only 5 miutes away?

Search for what? Are you talking about a primary search for a victim? Or are you talking about a downed / missing FF search?

If it's the latter, and you are WAITING TO CALL A FAST UNTIL YOU NEED IT, SHAME ON YOU! Even if you don't call in a FAST right away, you should always designate a crew to stand-by to watch out for your people.

And, on the issue of just calling in an Engine, Truck or Rescue company to be your FAST - do they have training in that discipline? A FAST is much more methodical in it's operation and better trained (most times) then a normal firefighter. For me, if I am running a scene I want a trained, qualified FAST and not an Engine with a driver, an Officer and three guys fresh out of FF I class. Give me experienced, trained firefighters with knowledge, no just pulses.

[FirNaTine 370]

Even if we did go with a Countywide fire department, which I think is a good idea in some ways, I don't think Yonkers would be a part of it.

They have a very good system in place right now that serves them well. There is no incentive for them to "sell out" to a County Fire Department. If anything, the County or other fire districts should contract with Yonkers and New Rochelle in some areas to provide leadership and staffing.

Your absolutely right Seth, especially with the last statement of your post! Also, you'll never see YFD apart of a CNTY Dept. They are and have always been their own entity and good for them.