When Are You Considered "On Duty"?

[x635 4,066]

I'm doing some research, and would appreciate any input.

When reporting in for work, at what point are you considered "On Duty"?

If you are reporting in for work, in uniform, and on department property, does or can that constitute being "On Duty"?

If you are on property reporting for duty, and the Engine leaves for a fire, let's say, would you be required or be able to jump on to go to the incident? Especially if that has been the "norm" in the past?

Does anyone know of any laws, written policies, or precendents regarding this?

[JBE 328]

When it comes to something like a line of duty injury, most comp laws state an hour before and after your shift.

[x134 46]

I was under the same impression JBE. When you are reporting for duty, If you get hurt in the parking lot of the Firehouse you are covered or it would be made so.

[x635 4,066]

When you are reporting for duty, If you get hurt in the parking lot of the Firehouse you are covered or it would be made so.

Not if you work for the Hartsdale Fire District, which is where my problem lies. Can anyone find documentation or a prescedent verifying the above?

[JBE 328]

I would suggest looking up the comp laws the state has, and see if there is something in there that would be of help to you. If you haven't already done so.

[x635 4,066]

I would suggest looking up the comp laws the state has, and see if there is something in there that would be of help to you. If you haven't already done so.

I've looked through the comp laws, can't seem to find it. There's nothing in my union contract. Yet I have found numerous instances where an firefighter was on the premises, but not on duty, and injured....and covered by 207A.

It seems everyone I talk to has conflicting opinions-I want to know if anyone has been through a similar situation or has any sort of NYS documentation clearly defining a firefighter being on duty.

The people I am fighting against are extremly malicous, and really could care less about the law and ethics. I am trying to gather as much documentation as possible. I not only want to resolve my situation, but I want to make sure that these individuals cannot play the same games and get away with it if this happens to someone else.

[JBE 328]

So I guess 3 over 4 and out the door is out of the question.

[PC_420 28]

Seth, I think its time to hire counsel.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

If my shift starts at 0730, 0800, 1530, 1600, or 2330, 2400 then that is when my shift starts. I ALWAYS get to work 1/2 hr before the earliest tour. That means 0700, 1500, 2300. I go into the locker room, get changed and wait to get out onto the road. If for some reason work is crazy and they need me early, then I go out. That is when I am considered working I guess.

Do you go to work dressed already as a FF? If I get called for OT, my time starts when I get the call. Does that mean if I get hurt on the way to HQ in an accident I am covered I have no idea.

Seth why are they so MALICIOUS? And who is they? Just watch some TV during the day and you will find all sorts of INJURY LAWYERS. They can help.

[x635 4,066]

I don't trust lawyers, and I've had enough of them. I am in the process of hiring a new one, but I want to further my own research.

I was on district property. We have a long standing practice of "early relief". Kind of a "tag" system. However, the District claims that since I didn't relieve anyone since I was injured in the process of trying to, in my prescribed department uniform. The District also claimed that our shifts don't start until 0800 for the day shift, so that any early relief is voluntary and you are not officially on duty until 0800. Not only have they fought the whole on-duty thing, but they have fought me even getting workers comp.

As to why they are so malicous, I wish I knew (see this post for further info on that issue:

http://emtbravo.net/index.php?s=&showt...st&p=115745

I just want to know if anyone knows of any law or precedent in this situation.

[mikeinet 37]

Seth, Have you checked this out: http://www.wcb.state.ny.us/content/main/wo...juredWorker.jsp

They have a whole section on volunteer firefighting/ems (interesting for others... doesn't apply to you though)

Regarding Lawyers... I know it often seems like they're just trying to get your money or this or that... but hey, they go to school for a reason. They get paid to know everything and everything about their area of work. Would you want a laywer coming to fight a fire if you're house was burning down? ;-) Just my $0.02.

[antiquefirelt 994]

The Fair Labor Standards Act says that an employer can consider you "on duty" at 10 minutes before your shift begins. This means they can make you go on the run if your in the station within 10 minutes of the start of your shift. Similarly, they do not have to pay you for up to 10 minutes of time past the end of your shift (your Union Contract may take precedence on this end). If you were on their property and the incidetn happened within 10 minutes of the start of the shift, I'd say you have some legal standing (not a professional opinion though) but the "early relief" system may turn out to bite you if you were there more than 10 minutes before shift. But, why wouldn't the City's insurance be responsible for their property? Hell if you slipped in my driveway you could sue me and my homeowners would have to pay.

In any event the FLSA is a good read for all Unionized emplyees, especially firefighters as there are many specific exceptions to our job (OT pay being the biggest!!!)

[lad12derff 283]

If you were not "on duty" you should sue the town as a civilian who was hurt on public property. Just my 2 cents.

[x635 4,066]

If you were not "on duty" you should sue the town as a civilian who was hurt on public property. Just my 2 cents.

I work for a Fire District, which is completly seperate from the Town. And my former attorneys have told me that I can't sue them if they are paying me workers compl.

However, they are setting themselves up for another lawsuit of a whole different kind if they don't let me return.

[DET366 0]

For what it's worth, I spoke to my wife who is a supervisor in a NY based EMS system. One of her employees fell in the parking lot of their facility before he punched in and was given full workman's comp benefits. She seems to recall NYS workman's comp considering persons on duty 30 mins prior to the start of shift including if you get into a car accident on the way to work. She also told me that anytime her people get hurt they utilize very specialized workman's comp lawyers. If they are not paying you comp, then as the saying goes, you own them. You could go after the district and the contractor for not providing a safe constrution site. If you wnt I could try to find out what lawyers these guys use and exactly how their cases transpired. Good luck

[jack10562 414]

This may or may not have any bearing with establishing a precedent for your case, but if I recall correctly, a while back a FDNY member while enroute to his firehouse was killed in a freak accident on the Taconic in Briarcliff. A tree fell on his car!

I believe FDNY considered him on-duty at the time of the accident, simply by being enroute to work, so that his family would be allowed receive a better line-of-duty comp package.

[RWC130 594]

WHEN ARE YOU CONSIDERED "ON DUTY" IS A GREAT QUESTION?

As a Volunteer Firefighter or Volunteer EMT you are considered ON DUTY once the Pager sounds, No???

I know of some incidents of personal injury including LODD's that were NOT on scene but other circumstances

and maybe some of the time a Mayor, Commish, Fire Chief, or Captain just did "THE RIGHT THING" ???

IMO as a Career Firefighter you should be covered going to work,

returning from work, and OBVIOUSLY at the very least on the property of a Firehouse.

You didn't show up to wash your car, You showed up to WORK!

You might punch in, sign in, log in, or tag your it and off goes the other Firefighter

or you might be on your way into work and get hurt before you reach the door at

which time you are unable to do any of the above while lying in a trench.

Something REALLY stinks about this whole thing...

Seth, You have our support brother!

[ex-commish 490]

When reporting in for work, at what point are you considered "On Duty"?

If you are reporting in for work, in uniform, and on department property, does or can that constitute being "On Duty"?

I believe the issue is were you injured on duty or in the line of duty. I had broken my ankle two years ago while on my post yet I was denied 207-c because it was determined that my injury, allthough occured on duty was not considered in the line of duty because at that exact time I was not performing any duties pertaining to my job description. I was entitld to workmans comp and my employer had to pick the difference in my salary pursuant to our labor agreement.

[Monty 35]

WHEN ARE YOU CONSIDERED "ON DUTY" IS A GREAT QUESTION?

As a Volunteer Firefighter or Volunteer EMT you are considered ON DUTY once the Pager sounds, No???

I know of some incidents of personal injury including LODD's that were NOT on scene but other circumstances

and maybe some of the time a Mayor, Commish, Fire Chief, or Captain just did "THE RIGHT THING" ???

IMO as a Career Firefighter you should be covered going to work,

returning from work, and OBVIOUSLY at the very least on the property of a Firehouse.

You didn't show up to wash your car, You showed up to WORK!

You might punch in, sign in, log in, or tag your it and off goes the other Firefighter

or you might be on your way into work and get hurt before you reach the door at

which time you are unable to do any of the above while lying in a trench.

Something REALLY stinks about this whole thing...

Seth, You have our support brother!

Not too pertinent to the original topic, but my understanding is that volunteers are covered as soon as they start responding to a call. This appears to be backed up by:

travel to, from and during fires or other calls to which the company responds

which comes from AssemblymanDavid Koon's flyer on vfbl.

Seth, I definitely think you need a lawyer that specializes in this kind of thing. I'd suggest contacting IAFF, or maybe NYS Chiefs Association for any recommendations they have on lawyers well versed in Fire Service Law.

Monty.

[JCESU 20]

Seth,

I see what your getting at.... take a look at the FLSA (we all fall under the 7K provision) that should help you out some. In addition, regardless of what time you get payed from, 'past practice', also plays an extremely significant roll in determining when your on duty. Especially for collective bargaining and legal issues. Rick

[jcoppola 52]

In Norwalk, we are considered on duty en route to work and en route back home or to the next destination. We have had members get in car accidents to and from work and they are covered under comp.

For this reason, it is important for the CO to document the time a member left the firehouse from his/her shift.

[firecapt32 282]

I believe there is court cases in New York that state you are on duty "going to "and "returning from" work as long as you are doing so in a "reasonable fasion, and time" ie if you work in White Plains F.D. and live in Elmsford but get in a accident in Chappaqua you might not be covered. If you were in a accident on rt 119 and had just left work you would be covered.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I don't see how we as career firefighters can expect to be considered "on duty" while traveling to and from work. You have an assigned shift, you show up and work it and leave when its over. This I don't beleive is the same in Seth's case as he was on FD property, which is another story. How can the employer control your actions in your POV? If we are to expect them to cover us to and from work, can they tell us the route to take, to obey the speed limit and not to stop off for a beer? If I get a ticket while on duty, my a$$ is grass, but on my way home? If I was considered "on duty" can I be disciplined by the City? Now a related injury on the way home (heart attack, stroke, etc) might be different if it can be shown that it was induced by the job (over exertion, heat illness, etc).

As volunteers or off duty call in responders I think that we are on duty the minute we receive the page and respond. We're basically be told to respond for an unscheduled event. We have rules and laws governing that we report directly by the quickest means, no drinking, etc. Different circumstances than shift work.

Again, I think Seth has a legitimate grime if he's not being duly compensated and/or medically covered for an injury that occurred on fire district property regardless of the start of shift time. Though the FLSA 10 minute rule would certainly help ( at least by the firehouse lawyer's thinking).

[x635 4,066]

Thanks guys. My questions have been answered, and I don't want to think about this and want to relax this weekend, so I'm closing the topic. Thanks to everyone for their input.

(P.S. Any member who started a topic/thread can request for it to be closed-any member)