Does Briarcliff FD need a specialized foam engine?

[x635 4,066]

Well, since the state is going to be doing nothing in the foreseeable future about the dangerous section of Route 9A (From Hawthorne-Croton), then I suggest that Briarcliff Manor FD, being more or less in the middle of the dangerous section of 9A, be provided with funds to purchase a specialized foam engine. Maybe staffing could be shared by neighboring FD's.

This route is heavily traffic-d by gasoline tankers, and since this happens about once a year, if not more, than it's due to happen again. This would be a neccasary tool, IMO, for Briarcliff and area FDs who will have to continue to respond to these incidents, which have the potential to be a lot worse than we saw last night? (What if it was at rush hour, or closer to a residential areas????) Fairview's trailer is great, but for a volatile situation like this, it may too far away. Plus Fairiviews foam unit has I-287 to worry about, whcih is another enormous hazard.

I suggest the engine have pump and roll capability, a bumper mounted remote control turret capable of spraying a large swath of foam, and 2000 gallons of water, with a 200 gallon foam cell.

But then again, Millwood has tons 'o foam too. :-k

[Remember585 815]

Forgotten once again was Croton's Engine 118.

Engine 118 carries 100 gallons of AFFF foam and 1000 gallons of water.

This is the second rig for Chemical Engine Co. #1 to carry on-board foam.

The old E118, a 1963 Maxim, also had a foam tank, although it was much smaller.

[chris498 31]

I think it is important to remember the CFR trucks at Westchester County Airport as a viable resource for incidents such as this. I think that they have three rigs if I am not mistaken, one rig I think is a spare/back-up unit. That truck could be sent mutual aid to local Westchester County Departments facing large scale incidents.

[Guest DG795]

This incident reminds me of an incident that occured this spring while I was in maryland.

A Tanker, for whatever reason, flipped off a bridge and landed below on I-95, on the Baltimore County/Howard County border. as in Briarcliff, the truck took some cars with it, created a massive fuel fire, and ignited a significant brush fire. units from BWI airport were dispatched almost with 10 minutes of the original run, and seemed to be the definitive asset to contain the fire.

There were a couple fatalities, the exact number escapes me.

All in all, a great job by Briarcliff and M/A companies.

I have the audio recordings from the I-95 incident through Howard County DFRS if any one wants a more detailed look at this strikingly similar incident.

[CFD320 35]

PLEASE DONT FORGET ENTERGY!!! If you call Indian point they can have (3) 500 gallon vats of foam on a trailer in 15 minuets. They show up you drop your foam pick up into the vat and bang you can flow 25,000 gallons of 6% foam solution.

As Remember 585 said E118 does have Fecon class b around the pump foam proportioning system and 100gal of afffp foam on board. We can flow foam out of every outlet including the deck gun. If called to an incident we will also bring supplemental foam.

[WAS967 97]

I think it is important to remember the CFR trucks at Westchester County Airport as a viable resource for incidents such as this. I think that they have three rigs if I am not mistaken, one rig I think is a spare/back-up unit. That truck could be sent mutual aid to local Westchester County Departments facing large scale incidents.

Are they full time units? I thought they were mainly daytime and staffed by Airport personnel?

[RES20CUE 40]

Engine 225 at the VA also has the "Feecon" system, with a 100 gallon Foam tank, as well as 100 gallons in storage.

[Stench60 29]

"I think it is important to remember the CFR trucks at Westchester County Airport as a viable resource for incidents such as this. I think that they have three rigs if I am not mistaken, one rig I think is a spare/back-up unit. That truck could be sent mutual aid to local Westchester County Departments facing large scale incidents. "

The spare unit is exactly that, a spare unit should one of the front line units go down. If the airport loses on site firefighting capabilities, by FAA regulations they must shut down flight operations.

[HFD23 37]

honeslty i don;t feel the briarcillf needs a foan unit, i think that departments are trying to handle to much them selves, other departments have foam capabilites as well as the county trailer stationed at fairview... i just feel that if ever department goes out and gets foam engines were wasting money that could be spent on other more daily equipment or a separte featrure on a rig.. briarcliff and their neighbors did a great job, they knew to call millwood wo has foam and they got the county squad 6 with foam on the road rite away. i just don;t feel every department needs every specialized tool espically if ur neighbor has it, you can work together as departments to make sure your area of the county has all the basis's covered rather then try to have every one have every luxary... thats just my personal opinion, but all in all the departments who responed did an excelant job so hats off to all involved...

[chris498 31]

The spare unit is exactly that, a spare unit should one of the front line units go down. If the airport loses on site firefighting capabilities, by FAA regulations they must shut down flight operations.

Ummmmm...... They have three trucks right? Are you telling me that if they send one truck to a major incindent that requires large amounts of foam that they then have to stop incoming flights? That sounds obsurd! What are the chances that just as one trucks goes to fight a fire the others will break? I think one of those trucks is a spare..... a back up unit..... a truck can be pressed into service if needed..... I could be wrong. Or fine, then keep the spare there, and send a front line truck for all I care. I hope that they could manage without one truck for a period of time. But I think that if that you are right, and they cannot send a unit then the county needs to consider obtaining a foam unit that could available at a moments notice to go somewhere other than the airport!

[mfc2257 464]

From my knowledge the airport rigs are for airport use only and not part of the M/A footprint.

With regards to Briarcliff getting a foam capable engine... If they want one and they have the extra money then go ahead... But look what has happened with Cascades... They are everywhere... Millwood and Greenburgh were the only ones for years with the addition of the air pump on the old U12 too. Now everyone's got one.. I'm trying to get us to sell R-36 and put all the equip on E247/248 while we can still get 100k for it from a far away FD that needs a cascade...

Also I was on the committee for E248 and I gave a lot of input on E247... Combine that with MA-10 and I've got a decent knowlege of foam usage... Aside from the airport I don't know of any Departments that can deliver as much foam immeadiatly as we can....... Here's a few thoughts....

1: The CAFS/A/B foam system that is on E-247 is a $50,000 option these days. E-248's option does not include CAFS but the A/B componant added nearly $20,000 to the cost. It's not cheep and neither is the foam at $85-100 per bucket.

2: Training is very important. Just having foam to use doesn't get the job done. In fact just like having a TIC... IF you don't know what you're doing you can get in a heap of trouble..... Just because you have the solution doesn't mean you know how implement it. Example... Barreling into that fire on 9A the other night with a foam line without thinking and observing could have disrupted the residual fuel that lay in the bottom (actually the side) of the tank and spread it by splashing onto the ground and re-ignighting all the spilled fuel that was put out already... This actually happened not with a hose line but a FF who fell and broke the foam's miniscus and the fuel spread.. re-ignited and ran like a fire river toward my tanker. Another example is CAFS.... Its great putting the fire out, but it doesn't cool the room or allow you to vent using fog... Lots of first timers use CAFS then stand up in a room that is still 1800degrees and get severly burned.

3. Having a specialty for a department means that you are trained and prepared to get the job done all the time.... If a department specializes in everything it becomes dilutive... If the need presenteted itself on Wednesday, BMFD could have had two engines and a mini attack plus 3600gal tanker ready to attack that fuel fire with a minimum of 7 pre piped foam lines 2 traditional bucket and eductor lines, 200+ gallons of foam and crews that had trained on getting that particular job done... It didn't come to that. If someone's calling mutual aid for water rescue... Just because Millwood's got a boat doesn't mean that it's our specialty... for others it is.

4. Pump operations for foam become complicated too like they do when supplying a ladder. Many new pump operators don't have the true knowlege of hydraulics and the mechanics of pumping. Pumps are easy these days... Push a button and open a valve... Well if you are running eductors with sticky foam that can clog and you've got a million different lengths of hose and different nozzles and a bucket and eductor off one discharge and 3 prepiped lines off another it becomes complicated... Some require 200lbs to operate others 100lbs... Some wont operate unless placed within a certain distance of the pump... If you are combining this with maintaining a prime at a watersource or water shuttle it adds an extra level of complication to it.

I'm not saying that Millwood, Fairview or anyone else that has made a committment to having an aggressive foam attack available are the only people that can do it just that there is a lot more involved than just being flow foam.... AND the situations can be infinately more dangerous than just putting out a regular combustable material fire.

[Pyroinvestigator 0]

Please let me clear one thing up...the foam trailer is not and has nothing to do with the squads and as such squad six did not respond. Though I have heard that fairview may use the squad six bus to pull the trailer.

[x635 4,066]

Some great insight on this thread.

In regards to some of the above mentioned resources, how fast would you be able to get those resources there, especially 5'oclock on a Friday afternoon??? In regard to the airport crash truck, yes, it is definelty a resource we can call, but how long would it take to get to 9A?

This IS going to happen again, since the state will continue to neglect the deathtrap of a road 9A is. If anything, Briarcliff needs to have an engine capable of applying foam immediately.

[SEC92 0]

Just for the record. Engine 92 from Briarcliff which was first engine on the scene carries both class A and class B foam which

was used on the initial attack

[Remember585 815]

Back in 1997 when I took the ARFF course, we were told by both our Instructor and the Airport Ops people that we can call on them if needed for an emergency.

I don't know if this is still true, but I will look into it for you all.

[mfc2257 464]

With regard to how fast can resources to calls at 5pm on a Friday, I would say pretty quickly... When you hear a neighboring department responding to a serious call like this, typically you begin to prepare your self. By the time the tones dropped the other night we were idling on the ramp of HQ and 2252 was loading our foam reserve onto U44. By the time we pulled onto the scene, E248 and MA-10 were staffed out of both stations should they be added to the box.... Same with tanker calls... If we hear Croton, Yorktown, Somers, Katonah, or Bedford Hills get a call, people start wrapping up what they are doing and moving toward our sub-station to have the Tanker ready.

Can these perfect responses happen all the time... No... But I find with major incidents it is more often that the neighboring departments are ready to respond by the time the call comes in rather than struggling to put a crew together.

[x635 4,066]

With regard to how fast can resources to calls at 5pm on a Friday, I would say pretty quickly... When you hear a neighboring department responding to a serious call like this, typically you begin to prepare your self.

I wasn't so much reffering as to how fast an agency could get a crew, I was referring to the choking traffic situation often present on Westchester roadways, especially on a Fridy afternoon, when the traffic volume on WC roads seems to be the worst of the week.

[ja3kfd 34]

Maybe it is time that just like the De con Trailers we get the state and county to fund more foam trailer for the county split them up fairly and lets get them done its great that they gave 1 (one ) to Fairview but thats still a nice ride to Northern West. and why add the extra time to an already crazy situation its time we start to work as a group to do it that is just my opinion it could work actually it needs to work

[hudson144 150]

its quite apparent that foam is needed more than once throughout westchester co. its nice to know that some of the units mentioned above in this thread are available to the mutual aid program.I know that there is foam available both at the fire training center and indian point as well,the foam trailer which is maintained by fairview is pretty much in the middle of the county and is available if you call for it. chiefs throughout the county should be familiar with what is available when it comes to the specialtys of firefighting. The county airport is available from what I have heard but yes there may be a problem with airports ops on when and when not a CFR (crash fire rescue) rig may be sent,there is a standard equation for airports that they are required to go by when it comes to firefighting,i forget what it is but this could be better discussed in a future mutual aid plan. the airport does have 3 rigs there,a 4th one which is a civilain version of the air force P-4 which carries 1500 gals of water and 180 gals foam will be moving to FDMV shortly and operating as FDMV foam #1.hopefully the training and sop's will be worked on soon and the rig will be in service possibly at FDMV sta # 2 on fulton ave. when it comes the flammable liquid fires foam is a must and incident commanders from all the westchester depts should have a plan to get the foam to the incident asap. the dispatchers at 60 control are aware of what is available as well as the assigned battalion coordinators, pre-plans go a long way when doo doo hits the fan especially when the incident is something other than the well known structure fire here in westchester co. I will find out more tonight about the airport requirements tonight being that i will be with a gang of CFR firefighters tonight,be safe!

[Mofire24 27]

for any of you that dont know the minute those crash trucks leave the airport the airport is closed so it isnt as easy as it sounds to pull them off the airport grounds

[chris498 31]

The airport has to shut down if one fire truck leaves to go mutual aid? Why? Because of staffing? Should there be a centralized foam truck maybe kept at 60 Control? Why would they send the 4th CFR rig to Mt Vernon? Do they have a huge need for a crash truck down there? Maybe it should be kept in Valhalla where it would be easier to get to the Northern parts of the county.

[hudson144 150]

the reason mt vernon is getting it is because they have a large amount of fuel storage on the south side of the city,the unit might have been scrapped at brookfield if fdmv didn't seek to get it,as far as the unit being centrally located,the foam trailer was originally @ the FTC and then relocated to fairview so it can be dispatched asap instead of waiting for crews to respond from their homes to go and get the unit ready to respond, its all about response time with such as specialized unit,the incident the other night proved that the fairview firefighters can respond immediatly without a delay.the only thing that might delay the response is if the IC doesn't call for it in a timely fashion.as far as the airport being shut down,the airports are required to have a certain amount of water/agent available as well as a response time on the ramp or runways. Like I had mentioned before there is a calculation for thw whole response package on the airports,it does amaze me how the county airport doesn't have full time coverage for the airport when the birds are flying but that is all in the guidelines i belive that are set up and monitored by the FAA. I am going to try to get more info on this,the units at the airport are up to date modern crash rigs that are ready to respond if an incident does happen. the airport operations crew does oversee the whole emergency response criteria.