21 Year Old Fire Chief

[ex-commish 490]

Just about every post that is mentioned here deals with the aspect of commanding incidents. I haven't seen one comment or question about a 21yr olds tackling the administrative side ie; training, policies & SOG's, FF physicals, PPE purchasing/maintenance, apparatus reserve funds & committes, apparatus maintenance, station maintenance, projected community growth, LEPC meetings these are just a few to mention.

Not knowing anything about this department where this incident took place, I would hope that they have one hell of a mentor program for the junior officers to advance!

Very good point. Most of my time as chief was spent doing administrative stuff...you know the boring stuff that had to be done. Also, how about dealing with your governing board? The public? Disciplining members? Interacting with other agencies, politicians? Plain old life experience helps here.

[OLDGUY19 6]

Haveing worked for 7 career and 6 volunteer chiefs in my time in the fire service. I can say maybe 21 is a little young just for a maturity level. but I have worked for some the biggest idiots you could ever believe and age has nothing to do with it.If it wasn't for the line officer's and the guy's on the floor to hold together the day to day the whole place would fall apart. The ages ranged from mid twenty's to as old as early seventy's only one or two were good the rest should have been fired or let go in my twenty+ years. But we all know what politics does to the fire service.

[Remember585 815]

Let's not forget that the troops follow the lead of their leaders. Are people 21 years old going to behave and act accordingly?

Most 21 year-olds I know, including me back then, wanted no responsibilities and spent much of that time chasing women and taking advantage of being the "legal age" if you catch my drift.

[helicopper 1,050]

Just about every post that is mentioned here deals with the aspect of commanding incidents. I haven't seen one comment or question about a 21yr olds tackling the administrative side ie; training, policies & SOG's, FF physicals, PPE purchasing/maintenance, apparatus reserve funds & committes, apparatus maintenance, station maintenance, projected community growth, LEPC meetings these are just a few to mention.

Not knowing anything about this department where this incident took place, I would hope that they have one hell of a mentor program for the junior officers to advance!

This has been a fascinating discussion. It's interesting to see how polarizing the topic has become. Now for another two cents...

You can't run for President of the United States until you are at least 35 years of age - why? To insure that they have experience. Is this to say that a 25 year old wouldn't be a good president? No, but the simple fact is that a 35 year old will have 10 more years of life experience.

One of the fundamental problems here is not the chronological age of the chief, it is the vague or non-existent requirements for the office of chief. If you look at the requirements to become qualified as a Type 1 Incident Commander, the "fire chief" of the wildfire world, (gotta use the wildfire model, it's the best for this point) you'll see what I mean. What do most departments require to qualify for chief? FF1, FF2, some officer training? What about all the non-firematic obligations of the job?

To become a Type 1 IC you must first be a firefighter (trained and qualified), then move up through the following management positions:

Crew Boss

Task Force/Strike Team Leader

Division Supervisor

Operations Section Chief (Type 2)

Operations Section Chief (Type 1)

IC (Type 2)

Planning/Logistics/Finance Admin Section Chief (to be an IC, you gotta have TWO section chief quals, ops plus one other)

Then and only then can you screen for Type 1 IC.

It is impossible to achieve all this at the ripe old age of 21. I'm told by those in this field that it takes at least about 15 years to reach that level of training and experience. So, with that said - age shouldn't matter too much, training and experience should be the determining factors.

The comments above about the non-fire side of the job is critical too! It is far more demanding and requires a whole different perspective than the actual operations side of things.

Look at the requirements for most civil service management jobs - they all require more experience than a 21 year old can have.

It's not strictly about the age - it's about the EXPERIENCE! I've worked with plenty of mature 20-somethings and an equal number of 40-ish juvenile delinquents!!!

[Fex404 0]

Oh man --- I am sorry that this forum is filled with such single minded people --- it should not be about age thats all i am saying -- I just feel badly that you would write somone off who may be a better firefighter than you and a better leader just because he or she is "too young" ----------

and for whoever said that you would not feel comfortable taking orders from somoeone who has been in the service less time than you have ---- well i feel sorry for you -- just because they have been in the service less than you does not mean that they are less experienced or a better leader ---- everyone needs to stop thinking whose helmet is what color and what "title" they have and fight fire ------- and be better because of it

I just hope we all get home safe and no matter what differences we have -- i love you all -- happy holidays

IM OUT

[traumajunky 5]

Just about every post that is mentioned here deals with the aspect of commanding incidents. I haven't seen one comment or question about a 21yr olds tackling the administrative side ie; training, policies & SOG's, FF physicals, PPE purchasing/maintenance, apparatus reserve funds & committes, apparatus maintenance, station maintenance, projected community growth, LEPC meetings these are just a few to mention.

Not knowing anything about this department where this incident took place, I would hope that they have one hell of a mentor program for the junior officers to advance!

Okay I'm probably adding fuel to the fire... but here I go...

So I'm in a FD that responds to about 200 incidents a year, including EMS first response, population of the district: 5,000...

Refering to my last post and my former chief being 23...

During said chief's 3 year stint the department had the highest number of trained interior firefighters in the county.(out of 16 FD's) We started the third FASTeam in the county with 18 trained members. The department revamped our SOP's to include guidelines for EMT's and Fire Police, and requiring all members to have and pass a yearly physical, and go through at least an 8hr OSHA inservice along with an 8hr HAZ-MAT ops class. We also aquired numerous grants and did many fund raisers to purchase a new fire engine to replace an open cab gas powered engine, along with 30 full sets of turnout gear, and 20 new Scott 2.2 airpacks with composite bottles to replace the steel air bottles. We had only 10 structure fires in the three years, thanks to our community fire prevention, and no moderate or even serious injuries/fatalities to MOS or civilians.

Not to blow smoke up anyone's rear...

I believe our young chief did a wonderful job during his 3 years... that is why he keeps his white helmet, I give him alot of credit because I sure as hell couldn't have done half as good of a job as he did.

My rant is over...

My $0.02 is in!

[antiquefirelt 994]

And about calls -- I don’t care about call volume - just actual fire.

You should care about call volume. While structural fires are high on the danger list, there are thousands more decisions made every day that have serious implications. Call volume and decision volume are very important. Experience is very important, and more over good experience is key. You can do something wrong a million times and that indicated you will do it wrong the next time. How well does an individual deal with the public? How well under stressful conditions? How well will the young chief deal with internal conflict? Will he/she make the correct and legal decision?

The most important experience most of you are missing here is: LIFE EXPERIENCE. Theory, drills and books will only go so far. You need to have experienced many situations to be conditioned to good and bad experiences. These will drive your own decisions more than a book you read in college.

I say all this with the experience of having been a 21 year old Asst. Chief in a vol. dept. I now know a lot of what I didn't know then. In my current job as a FT Asst. Chief (38 yoa today!) I can't imagine making some of the decisions I had to make in the last 5 years when I was 21.

[PC414 0]

Twenty-one year olds are in charge of a lot of things in life. At 21 - a long time ago for me - I was a buck sergeant in the Air Force and resposnbile for the supervision of a crew. I knew a significant number of 18, 19 and 20 year old men and women at the time charged with the security of nuclear weapons. They could be trusted with live ammunition and the ability to use deadly force if needed. My father was a 1st lieutenant in the US Army Corps of Engineers commanding a platoon of roughly forty men in combat during 1943 at the age of 23. It isn't all that strange for relatively young people to be charged with fairly heavy responsibility.

I'm old(er) now. Been in charge of some people over the years and had some "kids" tell me what to do on various jobs, too. No problem as far as I can remember.

Maybe I just don't remember 'cause I'm old(er), though.

Personally, I vote for the "kid." If he meets the qualifications of the department and enjoys the support of his subordinates, more power to him.

Bob

[DOC22 1]

Twenty-one year olds are in charge of a lot of things in life. At 21 - a long time ago for me - I was a buck sergeant in the Air Force and resposnbile for the supervision of a crew. I knew a significant number of 18, 19 and 20 year old men and women at the time charged with the security of nuclear weapons. They could be trusted with live ammunition and the ability to use deadly force if needed. My father was a 1st lieutenant in the US Army Corps of Engineers commanding a platoon of roughly forty men in combat during 1943 at the age of 23. It isn't all that strange for relatively young people to be charged with fairly heavy responsibility.

I'm old(er) now. Been in charge of some people over the years and had some "kids" tell me what to do on various jobs, too. No problem as far as I can remember.

Maybe I just don't remember 'cause I'm old(er), though.

Personally, I vote for the "kid." If he meets the qualifications of the department and enjoys the support of his subordinates, more power to him.

Bob

Bob, I agree 100%!!!!!

Great post!!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Just so you know, I left the MILITARY aspect out of my previous posts because I do BELIEVE that they can be great leaders at a young age. They also have been trained and probably thrown right into the thick of things where they have to think on their feet and improvise or possibly die. I don't know ages of ranks in the MILITARY but I am pretty sure that there are no 21 year old ADMIRALS or GENERALS. I may be wrong but I will go out on a limb. If you are talking about a CHIEF of anything then that would be the HIGHEST RANK just like in the MILITARY. So that is my point. I don't know what age you should be to a CHIEF of ANYTHING. There are some young police chiefs out there right now. Bronxville just make a 39 year old chief but I believe he has 18+ years experience so he is probably qualified for the job. Do you think that everyone on that job that is older than him will enjoy taking orders? Maybe, maybe not.

I am not saying that being 21 you don't know a thing about PD, FD or EMS. I am saying that at 21 you still have LOTS to learn. I have seen lots of people older than me in EMS and LE that I would NEVER LET WORK ON OR HELP ME.

If someone has been in a service less time then me how can they know more than me? As for experience maybe they came from a different place but if they are brand new then I know that I know more than them. That is the way life is. You learn as you go.

As usual CHRIS192 puts a good spin on the TOPIC. Good thinking about the PRESIDENT. Some would even say that 35 years old is probably still too young for this day and age PRESIDENT.

[BFD1054 1,552]

ONEEYEDMIC...I agree as far as Chris192's post. He makes great points, and hell, hes not even involved with the fire service lol!

On a side note, i see that you are a P.O. and said you'd have a hard time taking orders from a younger guy or with less time on the job. That made me think of my cousin who is a Sgt. in the Bronx. He was otj for about 8 years when he made Sergeant. After being promoted, he had to go back out on the streets as a supervisor. He said he felt so weird at first because guys twice his age with 15-20 years on the job were asking for his advice and what they should do. Hed be like "hell, i dont know, do whatever you think you should do" lol. But, he had those 8 or so years on the job, with plenty of experience under his belt and passed the SGT. exam and earned that gold shield, so he learned quick how do deal with it.

As far as fire chief's go, it can be totally different. Im not going to get into career vs. volly, but they can be nowhere near comparable. The volly world is in a league of its own. In the career world (FD, PD, EMS, etc.) there are certain achievements that one must conquer before being promoted and one is experience (job experience & time on the job). Then there are exams and further training to be prepared for such rank & title positions.

Whatever member stated that there is more to being a fire chief than just overseeing things on the fireground hit it right on the head. As a Fire Chief, you are also in charge of overseeing the dept. (company) as a whole. You oversee training, physicals, paperwork (on all levels), administrative duties and everything in between. So yes, at 21-25 years old, you may be somewhat experienced as a firefighter, but what about everything else? Are you mature enough and experienced enough in life to deal with everything else that is dumped on your lap?

Hell, im a volly FD lieutenant and have no desire to jump into the ranks of a chief right now lol. I have enough responsibility as it is being a line officer and thats fine by me. Ive been in the fire service for a little over 8 years and continue to train in all aspects of fire, rescue and ems. Of those 8 years, ive spent 4 of them as a lieutenant. Did i become an Lt. to young, id like to think not. I feel that i have done a good job in my position, but have always continued to learn. Have i made mistakes, yeah, but ive owned up to them, learned from them and moved on. You can never be perfect and never know enough, especially in the ever-changing world that we live and play in!

Should age be considered for certain ranks in the world of emergency services, yes, i believe so. But more importantly should be experience (training and rel-life experiences). Unfortunately, a young twenty-something will not have much in the way of real-life experiences, even if they have plenty of fire training and certifications.

No matter your age and/or rank, know your role, know it well and do the best you can everytime, all the time, 100%! Always be smart about what you do and keep safety as your #1 priority!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I am not sure about the FD but you have to have at least 5 years as a PO before you can take the SGT's EXAM at my job. I think that may be for everywhere in the STATE. This topic started with an article about a 21 YO Fire Chief. I don't agree with his age and being in charge of a DEPT. That is my opinion. I stick to that. We can go on and on with any kind of a job. Let me make something clear. There will be bosses on my job younger than me at some point I am sure. I am not saying that I won't RESPECT them if they earned their POSITION. I respect all bosses whether I like too or not. I don't want this turning into ONEEYE likes to BUCK the system. That is not me. As with EMS, I take my job as a PO very seriously. Maybe one day I will get made and then I don't have to worry about this topic anymore. So I will leave it at this. IF SOMEBODY HONESTLY DESERVES the JOB as BOSS OF BOSSES. That too me means CHIEF and they are young I guess we can't say anything. But that person will always be under a microscope especially if something happens.

[ny10570 745]

How about this. Forget about whether or not a 21 y/o can be chief, but why is he the chief. The biggest knock against a 21 y/o chief is a lack of experience of one form or another. What about when that 21 y/o is the most experienced member? Why didn't anyone else with more experience in that dept step up and do the job. I'm sure there are 21 y/o's out there that could handle the job but the argument is whether or not they are best qualified for the job. Thats a question that cannot be answered until you can take a look inside that dept.

[Oswegowind 17]

With age we become wise...youth may be smart, but that is completely different!

[spike2231 38]

in my dept you have to have 2yrs in before running for officer 2nd lt

in theory 2yrs as 2nd then 2yrs as 1st then capt for 2yrs then 10yrs before chief its been said and never settled on whether its 10yrs for asst chief or is it just chief of dept that needs 10 yrs because nobody has gone just to chief without asst first

[spike2231 38]

in my dept you have to have 2yrs in before running for officer 2nd lt

in theory 2yrs as 2nd then 2yrs as 1st then capt for 2yrs then 10yrs before chief its been said and never settled on whether its 10yrs for asst chief or is it just chief of dept that needs 10 yrs because nobody has gone just to chief without asst first