Six-minute response time, Omaha Mall Shooting

[Guest]

I don't have any idea about the Omaha, Nebraska area, but does the six-minute response time for the Omaha shopping mall shooting seem a bit long? Most small cities (i.e., 400,000 metro population is pretty typical for the midwest) are pretty spread out, but at a busy time of year at a popular destination like a shopping mall, is it unreasonable to expect that response times could have been a bit shorter in this incident? Realistically, six minutes isn't bad, but the press has been specifying the response time. Without discussing the tragedy itself--other than traffic difficulties, what kinds of things go into determining whether a response time is inadequate or not?

[Guest seanc]

well i think u have to remember that the police that had arrived on scene probably would not have gone inside but have waited for backup and to make a plan of attack, so the first unit may have gotten their sooner then 6 minutes they probably would have waited for a second unit

[helicopper 1,050]

well i think u have to remember that the police that had arrived on scene probably would not have gone inside but have waited for backup and to make a plan of attack, so the first unit may have gotten their sooner then 6 minutes they probably would have waited for a second unit

Quite the contrary actually. Without going to deep into the tactics here, suffice it to say the initial responding officers would have entered the mall in an attempt to locate and neutralize the shooter.

Let's remember how abstract that time is - do they mean it took six minutes for the first arriving unit(s) to arrive at the mall? Did it take 2 minutes get into the parking lot but another 4 minutes to traverse the mall and locate the victims/shooter? Was it the opposite? Does that really tell us anything at all about the response?

It's like calculating EMS response times. What stops the clock - pulling up in front of the apartment building, knocking on the apartment door (after a 5 floor walk-up 'cause the elevator is broken), or actually making contact with the patient? Everybody does something different and nobody really knows what the time from 911 call to patient contact is so what does that tell us about our service - nothing!

Unless we're going to start putting heavily armed PD on every level of every shopping mall and at every entrance to every large venue, it is virtually impossible to prevent an attack like this one.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I've been to Omaha and the city limits are huge so yes a six minute response time for travel is possible. Omaha's incorporated area is just about the size of Westchester County.

Chris also states it the best, when you say "six minute response time" the clock starts when you receive the first 911 call and the incident ticket is punched into the CAD. Within thirty seconds the dispatcher should be assigning and sending units to an incident and figure from that point of dispatch it will take another roughly thirty seconds to a minute before an actual responding unit goes en route. For police, times many vary depending if they area on patrol, where they are located at the time they are dispatched, ect. Plus backup ESU and other resources. I've dispatched for fire and the state police so I've seen how it works on both sides.

[Guest]

From an Associated Press story:

The first 911 call came in at 1:42 p.m., and the shooting was already over when police arrived six minutes later, authorities said.

"We sent every available officer in the city of Omaha," Sgt. Teresa Negron said.

Also, President Bush was in Omaha at a fundraiser lunch and left just before this happened, but the head of Omaha SWAT said that the fact that they provided security for the President helped, because they were basically already mobilized.

And thanks, Chris and Izzy--you guys and your perspective is what this site is all about.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I don't really think it matter what the response time was. Unless the POLICE were there in like 1 min this was still going to happen. This person went in with a plan, executed it, then took his own life. He was not going to be taken out by the COPS because he was a coward. Like Chris said we are now all trained to go right for the shooter. It would be better if we could have extra cars there, but if there is shooting going on then we are going in.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

The training I've recieved (which is limited, though I have taken part in some active shooter scenarios) has always taught me that the "Wait for SWAT" mentality must be abandoned after incidents like Colombine and VA Tech. From what I understand, the accepted tactical view on things like this is that regular patrol officers have to make the initial assault and be backed up by tactical assets as they arrive.

Someone whose a real cop can either back me up on that or correct me. I don't think that really goes to damage OpSec, its a pretty well established idea...

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Here is the deal as we do it. ACTIVE SHOOTER when we get there wait for another car then go to the sounds of where the shots are coming. We can't wait for SWAT because they can take a long time to gear up. We just had our training tonight and it goes well. The problem is that these Shootings are usually over before the POLICE GO INSIDE. As I stated in a previous post, the SHOOTERS ARE COWARDS.

I took a seminar on the BESLAN SCHOOL MASSACRE in RUSSIA. Great book by Dave Giduck. He was there and said there was nothing that anyone could do. Col Dave Grossman is the leading expert in the Country along with Dave Giduck on school shootings. You should all read up on it. Just google either or and read up on their websites. Col Grossman is and excellent speaker and I recommend everyone see him speak.

[IzzyEng4 427]

ONEEYEDMIC, I give you guys all the credit in the world for dealing with an incident like this or smaller. When I worked for CSP as a dispatcher is when I learned about how to handle situations like this from the troopers and brass I worked with. Just like in the fire serivice or EMS, always in twos.

[helicopper 1,050]

I don't really think it matter what the response time was. Unless the POLICE were there in like 1 min this was still going to happen. This person went in with a plan, executed it, then took his own life. He was not going to be taken out by the COPS because he was a coward. Like Chris said we are now all trained to go right for the shooter. It would be better if we could have extra cars there, but if there is shooting going on then we are going in.

The first 911 call came in at 1:42 p.m., and the shooting was already over when police arrived six minutes later, authorities said.

True enough - the shooting was probably over in less than 90 seconds (just a scientific wild-youknowhwat guess). Fortunately, the whacko turned the gun on himself rather than reloading and moving through the mall.

I'm sure we'll be hearing about the actual timeline and the pundits will be spewing their, well they could've, would've, should've nonsense on every news outlet available but unless there was a cop (on duty or off - remember the mall shooting in Utah a year or two ago? It was stopped by an off-duty cop) right there when the shooting started, the outcome wouldn't be much different.

Ironic that Bush was in town - that must have driven the Secret Service absolutely bonkers!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

If you read articleds about the VA TECH shootings it should have made you sick the way the media portrayed the PD response. When the next shooting happens, and it will happen, I want the media to respond at the same time of the PD or even earlier and see what they do. MEDIA MAKES ME SICK.

[TheBuff376 8]

All officers do not automatically seek out the shooter. Departments with ESU type units on the road are the ones that usually enter a hot area, while patrol officers that initially responded establish a perimeter and assist as support units.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

All officers do not automatically seek out the shooter. Departments with ESU type units on the road are the ones that usually enter a hot area, while patrol officers that initially responded establish a perimeter and assist as support units.

Maybe where you are you wait for ESU but we are trained to go for the shooter if it is active. We don't have the luxury of waiting for ESU.

[Oswegowind 17]

If your dept doesn't wait and hops on the hotline, we can have 3 E rigs plus White Plains and Mt Vernon to Mt. Pleasant in what, 8-10 minutes tops! All depends on who is driving the truck! Although it is not immediate, your dispatch center shouldn't wait til first car gets on scene and determines that there is actually someone shooting! Politics drive elongated response times...Centralized 911 and dispatch would eliminate this problem everywhere.

Also, in the report, the 6 minutes may have been the 1st car to actually advise he was on scene...sometimes in the heat of the moment our finest forget to let everyone know they are there or where they are! It just happens!

[helicopper 1,050]

All officers do not automatically seek out the shooter. Departments with ESU type units on the road are the ones that usually enter a hot area, while patrol officers that initially responded establish a perimeter and assist as support units.

That is a matter of training and department policy. Many departments large and small are trained for active shooter encounters and that does mean seeking out the shooter as soon as the first couple of units arrive - patrol, DD, ESU, whatever. It's fast becoming the standard for law enforcement all over the country.

The reality is that most jurisdictions don't have an ESU and even jobs that do it is usually patrol that is there first. The hotline and mutual aid is great but how do you explain to the families of the victims that you sat outside and waited 8-10 minutes for ESU or SWAT to arrive while listening to shooting. I'm all for a coordinated response and centralized dispatching but I'm also for rapid intervention by cops, any cops! Regardless of the availability of ESU, all cops should be trained for this type of intervention!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I also recommend Col. Grossman's books "On Combat" and "On Killing." "On Combat" is a great book that all military personnel, law enforcment and tactical medics should read to understand some of the psychological and phenomenon that occurs during deadly force incidents.

Active shooters require active reaction. While having a long gun is a nicety, in some aspects in CQB it can also be a hinderance. Chris192 has a great point that conditions dictate tactics and smaller departments do not have ESU units and in fact I know of larger departments that don't either. Some smaller departments carry weapons above shotguns in their RMP's, like M-4's (AR-15) and MP-5's.

Active shooter training is one of my favorites to take part in and also one that I learn something every time it occurs because it is so dynamic even in training. It also stresses my tactical treatment abilities to the max depending on what scenarios they throw at me and my fellow tac medics during it.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

That is a matter of training and department policy. Many departments large and small are trained for active shooter encounters and that does mean seeking out the shooter as soon as the first couple of units arrive - patrol, DD, ESU, whatever. It's fast becoming the standard for law enforcement all over the country.

The reality is that most jurisdictions don't have an ESU and even jobs that do it is usually patrol that is there first. The hotline and mutual aid is great but how do you explain to the families of the victims that you sat outside and waited 8-10 minutes for ESU or SWAT to arrive while listening to shooting. I'm all for a coordinated response and centralized dispatching but I'm also for rapid intervention by cops, any cops! Regardless of the availability of ESU, all cops should be trained for this type of intervention!

Once again CHRIS you hit it on the head. We HAVE to give 8hrs a year to ACTIVE SHOOTER with SIMUNITIONS. Some of us just did the training on Thurs night. It gets pretty intense. One of the Biggest gripes about the VA TECH shooting was how long it took for them to enter the building. The public didn't know that the doors were chained shut by the SHOOTER. In Beslan the biggest thing was that it turned into a HOSTAGE SITUATION and the TERRORISTS that had the school knew what they were doing. Families started showing up and soon half the town was there. That was a problem for POLICE and other Military responders.

ALS Col Grossman's books are awesome. To hear him speak was great although I don't agree on some of his stuff he right that SOCIETY now and what kids are doing with their spare time is not like when we were growing up. I am not going to blame it all on VIDEO GAMES and TV/MOVIES because I grew up when VIDEO GAMES and the likes were getting good. Parents have to limit how much time KIDS play and watch TV. It seems kids don't go out anymore and play games. TOO SAD.

[210 91]

Maybe where you are you wait for ESU but we are trained to go for the shooter if it is active. We don't have the luxury of waiting for ESU.

Same in the Raleigh Durham area. First arriving officers are going straight in to the sound of the noise be it shots, screams etc. We prefer to go in as teams of 4 for the 360 but that may not always be the case. We just had our training the other night also.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Same in the Raleigh Durham area. First arriving officers are going straight in to the sound of the noise be it shots, screams etc. We prefer to go in as teams of 4 for the 360 but that may not always be the case. We just had our training the other night also.

We train for teams of 4 in a diamond formation and teams of 3 and 2. It is not really practical that we will have 4 PO's there if there is an active shooter. We are lucky though. One High School is literally about 500yds from our HQ. Another High School is about 1.5miles from HQ along with an ELEMENTARY SCHOOl. We would be able to get support help from HQ. But if you are out in what we call the BOONIES you could be waiting a little while for another car.

[helicopper 1,050]

We train for teams of 4 in a diamond formation and teams of 3 and 2. It is not really practical that we will have 4 PO's there if there is an active shooter. We are lucky though. One High School is literally about 500yds from our HQ. Another High School is about 1.5miles from HQ along with an ELEMENTARY SCHOOl. We would be able to get support help from HQ. But if you are out in what we call the BOONIES you could be waiting a little while for another car.

It will be tough for any job to get four cops from any one job there fast enough to use the diamond formation. If we communicated more effectively though, it may be possible to get County, DEP, and you there and form the immediate action team. Hmmm... did Oswego say something about centralized communications????

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Does that mean there would be a race to see who won't get stuck be the #4 position walking backwards providing rear security? LOL.

Figure...3 separate phone calls should have that all covered for you Chris. Unless of course you're in the air...maybe then you can pick up guys along the way there and have them FAST rope in.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Does that mean there would be a race to see who won't get stuck be the #4 position walking backwards providing rear security? LOL.

Figure...3 separate phone calls should have that all covered for you Chris. Unless of course you're in the air...maybe then you can pick up guys along the way there and have them FAST rope in.

You laugh, Col Grossman suggested that. He wants all officers to be trained to do stuff on and out of HELO's. I would be game for that. It will never happen, but that is the fastest response time. We are all about that it will never happen here, and that is when it is going to happen. I am not even sure that it is going to happen in a school. With the recent Mall shooting the Westchester and Palisades is a good target. And then their was the church shooting in CO this past week. Everyone thought that I was nuts when I said I carried OFF DUTY WHEREVER I GO EVEN TOO CHURCH. Of course that Parish had about 10,000 members or something like that.

I think we are going to start training or at least doing dry runs in some of the Elem and High schools in the future. I would like to do it with school in session just so you can see exactly what you are dealing with. Admin at the schools don't want that. Oh well, we will keep rolling the dice.

[210 91]

You laugh, Col Grossman suggested that. He wants all officers to be trained to do stuff on and out of HELO's. I would be game for that. It will never happen, but that is the fastest response time. We are all about that it will never happen here, and that is when it is going to happen. I am not even sure that it is going to happen in a school. With the recent Mall shooting the Westchester and Palisades is a good target. And then their was the church shooting in CO this past week. Everyone thought that I was nuts when I said I carried OFF DUTY WHEREVER I GO EVEN TOO CHURCH. Of course that Parish had about 10,000 members or something like that.

I think we are going to start training or at least doing dry runs in some of the Elem and High schools in the future. I would like to do it with school in session just so you can see exactly what you are dealing with. Admin at the schools don't want that. Oh well, we will keep rolling the dice.

They won't let us train while school is in session either, however, we do it in the evening at one of the high schools and they have probably 30-40 students that volunteer to play act fleeing or injured victims. Not as realistic as it would be but better than nothing I guess. It's not always easy not popping off a round or two when one of these kids come flying around a corner.

Edited December 13, 2007 by 210

[JM15 386]

They won't let us train while school is in session either, however, we do it in the evening at one of the high schools and they have probably 30-40 students that volunteer to play act fleeing or injured victims. Not as realistic as it would be but better than nothing I guess. It's not always easy not popping off a round or two when one of these kids come flying around a corner.

haha Thats probabally why they won't let you do it while school is in session, too much liability.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Liablity with what? If simunitions were going to be used, I'm sure all are debriefed on what is going on and training I've done similiar to this the kids had to have a consent letter signed by a parent. The biggest issue is how some of the kids would react to seeing such an event. I know its a different world, but my daughter is in kindergarten and was very upset the first time they had a incident drill in school. As much as I am on a team that can respond to these events, I wasn't totally into how they explained to them why they are doing it. They don't understand much, but they do enough and she came right out and said "it was scary hiding in the corner." Along she still occassionally says she hopes someone doesn't come take her from school. Even with her being around my cop friends in uniform and me even showing her what a tactical officer looks like in the event something does happen I don't think I would want her to see a full call out drill.

Oneeye...I got to FAST rope and helo rappel in the Marines. One of the funnest things you can do with your clothes on.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Finally the snow is coming down. Great that I have to work at 1500. We did a training back in 2001-02 I think at one of our high schools in response to the Columbine shooting. We had ESU called in from GPD and I think COUNTY. Somehow I got stuck as the outside radio guy. Prob because because I don't get nervous on the RADIO and my EMS background with some MCI's. Went pretty well. My Chief was pretty impressed that I didn't lose my cool and was able to know where all the different players were at all times. That I see as the biggest problem if it happens in WEST. You may have bosses that SHOULD NOT BE in IC. If they can screw up TRAFFIC on a 2 car minor MVA then they shouldn't be at a scene as CHAOTIC as this.

What I would like to do and COL Grossman suggested this is see how the security around the schools are here. See how far you get into the school before somebody stops you and asks what you are doing. Some schools have Resource Officers. Now I am not sure what they exactly do. Do they carry guns? They are the first line of defense in a situation of this calibre and will most likely be the first CASUALTY. These are all things that I think about.

Well if they offer a FAST ROPE class anytime soon I am there.

[210 91]

Liablity with what? If simunitions were going to be used, I'm sure all are debriefed on what is going on and training I've done similiar to this the kids had to have a consent letter signed by a parent. The biggest issue is how some of the kids would react to seeing such an event. I know its a different world, but my daughter is in kindergarten and was very upset the first time they had a incident drill in school. As much as I am on a team that can respond to these events, I wasn't totally into how they explained to them why they are doing it. They don't understand much, but they do enough and she came right out and said "it was scary hiding in the corner." Along she still occassionally says she hopes someone doesn't come take her from school. Even with her being around my cop friends in uniform and me even showing her what a tactical officer looks like in the event something does happen I don't think I would want her to see a full call out drill.

Oneeye...I got to FAST rope and helo rappel in the Marines. One of the funnest things you can do with your clothes on.

Yes, there is an extensive briefing for all involved prior to any scenarios to include the use of simunitions. The victims are pretty much all older juniors and seniors. The shooters are off duty POs. We always debrief and most of them seem to enjoy the intreaction with the different police agencies.

[Oswegowind 17]

Since we are on the topic of "IN Premise Shootings with an Active Shooter", I would like to bring up our local hospitals and churches as possible scenarios. I have the blueprints to our schools in a binder in the Radio Room, and have studied them extensively! (probly the only one though) My concern is our 3 local Hospitals and our larger churches. Yonkers has a diverse population and although we have not had any thing along these lines, it is very possible. I would like to see more training dealing with these other type of facilities, as well as maybe City Hall and some of the larger corporations with extensive buildings. I also think that this training should not be limited to the responding radio cars, but what about us Dispatchers? What do we need to do? How should we mitigate a potential phone call from within? What about basic Hostage Negotiation for preliminary phone conversations with the "Shooter"? Since none of these things even ever occur, Right? As well as more County wide training like we had with Purchase a few months ago! For it to work right, everyone has to be trained, from the calltakers to the snipers! If one part messes up or is not proficient, the whole incident begins to go down hill. Personally I take pride in understanding these issues, and hope I am working up front when it goes down! But can any department guarantee that all of their people are ready? Is it time to be proactive instead of reactive? These things are occurring at a faster rate than before, lets step up to the plate!

And I always want to hear, "Aviation", when I ask: "Aviation, on the air K?"

At least 0700-2300 hrs...LOL