Westchester Trunked System Freq. Expanding

[SteveOFD 176]

I've heard from two different sources, and supposedly there is a memo out about this, that the new trunked system is maxed out. Maxed out meaning that no new user (apparatus or portable) radios can be programmed for use on the system.

I know the BeeLine buses are using the system extensively, and the South Zone is one frequency short of what was proposed, but why the limit on users when there are four or five Voice Channels available?

Anyone have any info on this.

[tbendick 27]

Steve the problem with the south zone at last check is as following

6 channels

2 not being used (Pending new freqs form FCC)

1 being used as Control

3 Left for voice traffic.

Figure Buses are allways using 1.

So now you only have 2 for public safety.

[Goose 188]

So then we've spent all this time and money and we are still left with the same problem as when we started?

[bmfd231 3]

Steve the problem with the south zone at last check is as following

Figure Buses are allways using 1.

So now you only have 2 for public safety.

I thought the radios put in the buses were for emergency purposes only, not for their general business.

[JBJ1202 27]

When i went to the trunk radio orienation meeting that the county scheduled for department prior to the system being online the same question was asked. A chief wanted to know if and when his department would be able to purchase additional portable trunk radios for his line officers. I remember the answer to that question being that at some point in the future departments would be able to purchase additional radios. At the time the county was more concerned with getting the system up and running before programming additional ID numbers. I dont know if anything has changed since then or where they stand... but thats what i can recall on the topic...

PS- My department had been on the system for over a month now and we had no problems with the system. We have not found any dead spots in the district (yet) and the reception is always clean. Plus radio traffic is a thing of the past with having Fire 19 all to ourselves.

JBJ

Go Cowboys

Edited December 1, 2007 by JBJ1202

[SteveOFD 176]

Steve the problem with the south zone at last check is as following

6 channels

2 not being used (Pending new freqs form FCC)

1 being used as Control

3 Left for voice traffic.

Figure Buses are allways using 1.

So now you only have 2 for public safety.

tbendick

One of the two new freq's has been approved (WQHV394) for the three South Zone sites at 110 watts. I assume the two not being used from WQBR539 (470.0750, 470.1000) are because they are not licensed for the 110 watts that 470.2000(WQHV394), and 476.0750, 476.1125, 476.2125, 476.2375(WQBR539) are.

I thought the radios put in the buses were for emergency purposes only, not for their general business.

bmfd231

My understanding from when the System was first proposed, was that by including the Bus System, the County could be reimbursed from the Federal Government for approximately one half the cost of the full System.

[Remember585 815]

It's possible that some people are confused. I think because DES is making agenices submit a form to request additional users TO AVOID a system overload, people are taking it the wrong way.

But I could (and have been known to be) wrong on this! I'll look into it.

[SteveOFD 176]

It's possible that some people are confused. I think because DES is making agenices submit a form to request additional users TO AVOID a system overload, people are taking it the wrong way.

But I could (and have been known to be) wrong on this! I'll look into it.

If we could get someone who has seen the memo to comment, then we would know what is happening.

[RWC130 594]

So then we've spent all this time and money and we are still left with the same problem as when we started?

YES!!!

[Remember585 815]

YES!!!

Quite opinionated, aren't you?

I would say that everyone operating on the system for day to day operations seems to be having no problems communicating. If they are, they've kept it to themselves. Portable coverage isn't perfect, but nothing is. I've been not only working with but listening to the system when I'm home and it is a GOD SEND to see people FINALLY getting off of 46.26!

AND - It's been a GREAT TOOL when we have incidents involving multiple agencies, calls where in the past we couldn't communicate with units that are now utilizing this tool. It truly has been a GREAT ADDITION to Westchester Fire & EMS and hopefully it becomes used by more units.

As for the issue where it may be "Maxed out," - I think others would agree with me that 46.26 has been this way for a long, LONG time. If the trunked system does in fact need to be "tweaked," then so be it - what new endeavor has ever gone off without a hitch?

RWC, for a "Radio guy" and a "Moderator" I don't think you really know what you are talking about here.

[CTchaz 0]

Maxed Out :

I can see how the system can be maxed out. It doesn't matter how many talk groups there are between Fire, EMS,Tactical and Operations. In the north system all those talk groups only have 5 frequencies to share (plus the control freq). It would seem that when major events happen, I'm sure there will be more than 5 people wanting to talk at the same time no matter what talk group they are in. Worse, the busses are using the system for normal use. And worse again, I have heard north system simulcasts onto the south and vica-versa. Now the north is tying up frequencies in the south and vica-versa, giving less chance for an open frequency.

CTchaz

[Guest alsfirefighter]

So then we've spent all this time and money and we are still left with the same problem as when we started?

YES!!!

I would venture more to say that the system is under utilized and not understood. Hence comments come up to make the situation look worse then it actually is.

[in the north system all those talk groups only have 5 frequencies to share (plus the control freq). It would seem that when major events happen, I'm sure there will be more than 5 people wanting to talk at the same time no matter what talk group they are in. /quote]

Yes there are "5" Frequencies to share, but to be honest there shouldn't be that much traffic on the trunked side. Even if there is that is why there are so many other talkgroups that can be chosen to put operational traffic on. What else do you possibly need to talk on a trunked system for other then command to 60 and incoming unit information. Which for those of reading this that love to talk about reducing radio traffic....allow the unit to get the incoming direction from the IC. Why is it that Chiefs call the IC to get info, only to say it all again to their unit?

This is simple gang...most of what we do and how we operate does not need to be on one of the trunked channels....

FIREGROUND Channel....FIREGROUND Channel...FIREGROUND Channel...FIREGROUND Channel

Oh yeah...why we're all ranting away...here's another thing to throw out there...

FIREGROUND CHANNELS ARE WORKING CHANNELS FOR ALL CALLS!!!! All units arriving and on scene should be utilizing these UHF LOS frequencies!!! That would solve half the problems on 46.26 as it is right now...not to mention it is unsafe to operate on a repeated frequency during operations, its not efficient....and you do not interfere with any other potential dispatches that need to come through!

[SteveOFD 176]

Worse, the busses are using the system for normal use. And worse again, I have heard north system simulcasts onto the south and vica-versa. Now the north is tying up frequencies in the south and vica-versa, giving less chance for an open frequency.

CTchaz

Point #1 re: Buses. I can not attest to how this system was programmed due to not being invited to attend the Train the Trainer training for the system offered by the County, but trunked systems do have the programmability to provide priority access to designated Talkgroups. What this means is that a Fire or EMS Talkgroup will be given priority to a voice channel over a Bus Talkgroup. Also, if I understand the technology correctly, a Bus Talkgroup would be preempted from it's conversation to give a Fire or EMS Talkgroup access if all voice channels are in use.

Point #2 re:simulcast. This simulcast mode is how the system was designed. If units from the same Talkgroup are in both zones, yes the transmission will be simulcast on both Zones. If all units from a Talkgroup are in one Zone (i.e. all Chiefs and Apparatus from Battalion 13 are in their respective Fire Districts and no where else) their transmissions will only be simulcast over the North Zone towers. Vice Versa for the South Zone.

[SteveOFD 176]

Yes there are "5" Frequencies to share, but to be honest there shouldn't be that much traffic on the trunked side. Even if there is that is why there are so many other talkgroups that can be chosen to put operational traffic on. What else do you possibly need to talk on a trunked system for other then command to 60 and incoming unit information.

This is simple gang...most of what we do and how we operate does not need to be on one of the trunked channels....

FIREGROUND Channel....FIREGROUND Channel...FIREGROUND Channel...FIREGROUND Channel

Oh yeah...why we're all ranting away...here's another thing to throw out there...

FIREGROUND CHANNELS ARE WORKING CHANNELS FOR ALL CALLS!!!! All units arriving and on scene should be utilizing these UHF LOS frequencies!!! That would solve half the problems on 46.26 as it is right now...not to mention it is unsafe to operate on a repeated frequency during operations, its not efficient....and you do not interfere with any other potential dispatches that need to come through!

alsfirefighter, I agree with you 100% that the Fireground Channels are underutilized. As a Company Officer, upon arrival on scene I announce on the Apparatus Low Band radio that I will be monitoring Fireground x, to let all other units (and as a subtle reminder) that we do not need to be transmitting Fireground Ops on High Power Apparatus radios.When I leave the rig I tell the Chauffeur that I will be on Fireground x so I can verify that I will be in communication with someone on scene. Yes it is unsafe to operate on a repeated frequency (which a lot of members do not realize that the Trunked System is a sophisticated repeater system). On a technical note you mentioned that there are so many other Talkgroups to put operations on, these Operations and Tactical Talkgroups utilize the same five frequencies that the Fire or EMS Talkgroups use. Therefore, whether you are using a Fire, EMS, Operations, Tactical or Bus Talkgroup, there can only be five conversation occurring simultaneously.

[DOC22 1]

In my department, dispatch only is on low band. All communication with 60 control is on fire 13. upon arrival we use fireground x. We have not experienced any problems.

[unleashedff248 3]

The trunked system to my knowledge so far has been a success. There are a few issues out there right now, namely;

1) Misunderstanding - trunking is very, very difficult to understand for the 'average joe.' We need to get people out of the "I push the button and talk" mindset. A radio is another tool for firefighting/EMS just like a halligan, axe, or saw. It needs to be understood and practiced with.

2) Inaccessibility - Many members of FD's have legitimate reasons to transmit and receive on the system -- and they can't. With the accountability of the system and ability to 'turn off' rogue or otherwise misused radios, we should be able to use the system more extensively then 46.26. This is not the case. Trunking scanners are expensive and are just another thing to lug around. More portables should be allotted to the FD's for use and members should be able to purchase personal radios and be assigned ID's, even if it's just for receiving and not transmitting, which can be easily controlled.

3) The radios don't scan - This drives me nuts. Sometimes it's important to listen to more than one talkgroup. Why aren't the radios programmed to do this?

A trunking system, when used correctly, is a wonderful tool. Every user has a unique ID. 60-Control can see if you radio is on, check the status of your radio, and even stun (temporarily turn off) or kill (permanently turn off until repaired by Motorola) your radio. Messages can be sent over the system, including text messages just like a regular cell phone. Talkgroups can be patched, moved, simulcasted, and reassigned with ease. Say you're rig radio is on Fire 13, but you need to be on Fire 16. The operator of the radio hasn't been trained and can't change the talkgroup. 60-Control can actually steer your radio to turn to that talkgroup from the console. Emergency buttons now have functionality, as 60-Control is immediately notified of the activation and can see exactly which unit is transmitting the emergency.

How many times has 46.26 been tied up by a open mic transmitting over one of the powerful cross-band repeaters? I remember Croton Falls had a structure fire one day, and someone's portable was transmitting over a cross-band repeater. 46.26 was down over the entire north end of the county -- big problem. With the trunked system that would no longer be an issue. Also, I can't even remember how many times I've heard people tapping into mics, playing music over the radio, or otherwise being inappropriate on 46.26. With the individual ID's of the trunked system the user could be identified and stopped.

More training has to be done and users of the system have to be trained correctly. From what I hear on the system it is not overtaxed. And priority can be granted to Fire/EMS users over the buses. However, adding one or two more voice channels to each zone could not hurt. The system is still in it's beginning stages and as with everything, the kinks must be worked out over time.