Water Problems, No Hydrants near by.

[tbendick 27]

OK, Trying to get some input from the people who deal with fires when there are no Hydrants near by.

Was at a 2nd Alarm in the Bronx the other day. The fire was in a wooded area north of Orchard Beach, access was from the parking lot of Orchard Beach. First Engine and Truck drove up the access road aprox 1/2 mile from the parking lot. The Engine then drove another 1000 or so feet down a dirt road to the fire, Truck remained on a paved path. Engine dumbed 500 gallons of water then the members used hand tools to control what they could.

At the same time. 3 more Engines laid all the 3 1/2 hose they had from the gate of the parking lot to the start of the access road. This was aprox 30+ lenghts, with one Engine at the Hydrant, one half way and then the 2000gpm from Satelite at the end.

The Satelite unit then droped 2500' of LDH from the parking lot up the access road to the area of the Ladder company. The first Engine then had laid all the 3 1/2 hose they had back toward the Ladder company. This left aprox 500' of distance between the end of the 3 1/2 and the Satelite. By this time most of the fire was out. To finish the relay parks Dept used a pickup and loaded it up with all the 3 1/2 they could fit.

In all it took aprox 40 mins to setup the first half of the realy and another 20mins for the 2nd half. Which still never made it to the fire. The fire was placed under control before water ever made it to the fire area.

So what could be done in the future to make this better? Water Pools? Some form of watter shuttle? Floating water pumps? (Fire was near the water, but to low for the boats). Just remember max amount of water is 500gal to a pumper and there are no Water Tankers

[DMA327 12]

Either a special Unit designed for long lays of LDH or multiple engines doing a water shuttle. Doesnt sound like there was much room for water shuttles tho so i would go with the LDH.

Or like you said there was a water source, so just get a floating pump or a portable pump and start drafting out of the closest water source.

[DOC22 1]

This looks like a good use for the new hydraulic pump i wrote about in another thread.

[WAS967 97]

Considering the area, are fire engine internals/pumps affected by salt water?

[Guest DFFD227]

Im no expert but I Imagine maybe after its use it may be dirty and need a cleaning??

[DOC22 1]

Once again going back to the submersible hydraulic, it works in whatever you put it in --fresh water, salt water, sludge, muck or mud.

[Shantz02 0]

How far into the woods was this fire? Could they have maybe set up the engines somewhere along Shore Road and gone in from there? That would have solved the issue of finding a hydrant to connect to, but dragging all that hose really would have sucked.

[DMA327 12]

DOC... Good call on the pump! I really need to check that thing out in action...Sounds like a great tool!

[TRUCK6018 50]

Considering the area, are fire engine internals/pumps affected by salt water?

Fire pumps will work in salt water with out any problems.

The problem lies when you don't flush out the pump and waterways immidiatly following use. The salt will eat away the pump components and fittings with prolonged exposure.

[FDNY 10-75 640]

I would say, FDNY should purchase 1-2 Tankers per borough.

[tbendick 27]

OK here we go.. Aerial Photo of the area.

1. Location of the Hydrant near the Entrance to the parking lot.

2. Location of the Relay Engine

3. Location of the 2000gpm Pumper (Engnie 72)

4. Location of the Satelite unit.

5. Location of the Fire Area.

From 1 to 3 the distance is aprox 1300 feet (3 1/2 hose)

From 3 to 4 the distance is aprox 2500 feet (5" LDH)

From 4 to 5 the distance is aprox 1000 feet (3 1/2 hose)

I might go back to this site and use the GPS to mark the points I am kinda of interested in the exact distances of this incident.

How far into the woods was this fire?

Aprox 3500'

Could they have maybe set up the engines somewhere along Shore Road and gone in from there?

Shore road was on the other side of the water.

That would have solved the issue of finding a hydrant to connect to, but dragging all that hose really would have sucked

They had the hydrant but the lenght of the hose stretch was nuts.

This looks like a good use for the new hydraulic pump i wrote about in another thread.

Don't think this would have worked. They would have had to carry it in the woods to the water.

Either a special Unit designed for long lays of LDH

This was used for the 2500' of 5"

Multiple engines doing a water shuttle. Doesnt sound like there was much room for water shuttles tho so i would go with the LDH.

Room was limited but could a water shuttle be done with pumpers that carry a max amount of 500gal of water?

[EJS1810 7]

What was burning? Brush?, Cars?

[tbendick 27]

This was just brush buring. There was some type of building at the 2500' mark (#4) but down at the fire area it was only brush/trees

[Shantz02 0]

First: I forgot the water cut in between the park and shore road.

Second: Did the City Island units respond, or were they confined to the island as is normal practice (am i right in saying that?)?

Third: If you go back, see if you can determine exactly what that building is, or what it was used for. It might hold some significant historical value.

[tbendick 27]

Second: Did the City Island units respond, or were they confined to the island as is normal practice (am i right in saying that?)? The Truck did respond, the Engine did not. The Engine is not allowed off the City Island.

Third: If you go back, see if you can determine exactly what that building is, or what it was used for. It might hold some significant historical value.

I will take a look If I go back.. Didn't get a good look at it, Might just have been something for the parks Dept.

[Truck4 48]

What was the wind speed/direction?

[tbendick 27]

As requested by Truck 4. Weather Conditions reported at the time of the fire.

Partly Cloudy

Winds From SW @ 10mph

Press 30.21

Visib 10.0 miles

Humid 44%

Dew Point 35°F

Tempature @ 57°F

Sunset at 4:41 PM

[Pyroinvestigator 0]

1- why wouldn't a pumper shuttle work...if the fire WAS put out with only 500 gal. then if another pumper came down the same road and emptied it's 500 into the first that would be 1000gal. and that would have worked and done it with a LOT less hose and work....

2- Why not drop an inflatable by the (#1) with a floating pump or trash pump and bring it around to the area near the fire and hook up hose brought in on a pickup/suburban/utility etc.

[tbendick 27]

1- why wouldn't a pumper shuttle work...if the fire WAS put out with only 500 gal. then if another pumper came down the same road and emptied it's 500 into the first that would be 1000gal. and that would have worked and done it with a LOT less hose and work....

The path down to the fire area (#5) was rather small and only dirt. If a tanker shuttle was attempted it would have been hard to bring units in and out. Might have been able to do it at the end of the access road (#4) but still hard.

2- Why not drop an inflatable by the (#1) with a floating pump or trash pump and bring it around to the area near the fire and hook up hose brought in on a pickup/suburban/utility etc.

Now this is a interesting thought. You could see the fire from the Hydrant (#1). However when you went up the access road and trail you didn't see it until you were on top of it. So this distance was much shorter then the roads. They did try to bring in Marine 6 but it was low tide.

[DOC22 1]

As regards to the hydraulic pump, if you could have driven a 4x4 pickup to a point relatively close to the water, it might have worked. Not knowing the layout you were dealing with I'm not sure how it would have worked but this thing is quite portable.

[DMA327 12]

Did you have access from land to water with a utility vehicle?

And if yes, then i would assume that putting hose and a portable pump into a couple utility trucks and streched hose to the seat of the fire from the water side would have worked best.

[tbendick 27]

Did you have access from land to water with a utility vehicle?

There was no good access that I saw for a vehicle to get near the water at the fire area.

[mfc2257 464]

Air drop.... Just kidding.... When I went to school in Gettysburg, PA we were right on the PA, MD, VA, WV boarder at the top of the Appalatian and Shenandoah Mountains where we ran considerable mountain and brush fires. Being that GFD was the largest within a considerable area, we ran a ton of calls....... I've seen a ton of situations like this. Water isn't the only answer.... Manpower is.

If you combine a bunch of guys that are ready to work really hard with rakes and shovels along with the proper use of several real brush trucks (not mini attacks with dual rear wheels and huge hose beds etc... but a regular 3/4 ton two door with a skid mount preferably CAFS) that is the way to get it done. The brush trucks make runs into and out of the fire zone to fill up and you need a few regular pickups to run fresh Indian Tanks and Water Cans and Fresh bodies.... This is the way to get it done. Unfortunately if you wait to set up major water supply ops the fire will grow. Get the guys in there with rakes and shovels, Cans and Indian tanks... and let the brush trucks reach what they can with the help of chain saws to clear the way..... So for this area as well as the ones in Staten Island, Queens and on the Bronx side near the Ferry Point Park, the way to go is create a task force that brings considerable man power to the area not just apparatus.

Edward Smith

Captain (2254)

Millwood Fire Company

[tbendick 27]

Air drop.... Just kidding

Well truth is that they did call for Air Drops early in the fire. They requested two NYPD Aviation units, one for Air Recon and one for the drops.

mfc2257 seems to have the right idea. It looked as if most of the manpower was being used seting up the water relay. Maybe just some good hard manpower with hand tools.. The Brush Fire unit did show up but only after the fire as under control. You also mention manpower not apparatus. The use of some for of transport unit to bring manpower and equipment from the staging area to the fire would have been great.

[Guest DFFD227]

I agree with FDNY 10-75, Maybe 1 Tanker per borough? or 1 Tanker for ever 2 boroughs...But the only negitive thing i can think about with that is what will this tanker respond to besides specific calls like the one above?

[mfc2257 464]

Tankers aren't going to be used often, but There are plenty of instances of failures on the water grid for whatever reason... When this happens in more residential areas in Staten Island, Queens and The Bronx, FDNY would be able to shuttle while a long lay with relay pumpers was being established. It wouldn't cost much in the grand scheme of things for there to be a super tanker in each of the aforementioned boro's. 5500 gallons on a heavy duty bi-axle with a tag axle for a third while on the highway. No frills.... Just a HD chassis, two man cab and a tank. OR you could simply take old Seagrave Bakers that are going to be replaced and strip the chassis and add a tank. Think cheap.... Then park the thing with an Engine Company and there ya go.

Oh yeah and a Federal Q2 is needed. 8)

Edward Smith

Captain (2254)

Millwood Fire Company

[Guest WolfEMT]

Hey, this is a little off topic, but how/where did you get that satellite photo of city island/pelham bay park?

[WAS967 97]

US Geological Survey Terraserver

http://terraserver-usa.com/default.aspx

Here is a shot of WC Airport. Close enough to count the aircraft on the ground. Too bad I can't link to the good pictures. If someone on the ground flipped a coin, you can tell them if it's heads or tails. Everyone wave to Big Brother. :wave:

http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?t=1&...=22734&z=18&w=1

[Guest DFFD227]

I agree with mfc2257 about how the tanker probably wont be used a lot, but what about storing the tanker in a house and having an engine company man it on those certain calls, so they don't have to use a full crew to man it. Sort of like what Yonkers does with there Collapse and Foam Units.