What Would You Do?: Dangerous To FF's Vacant Wood Frame OMD

[x635 4,066]

ldrco195 brought this up in another topic, and has some excellent insight, and I think there's still some awesome discssuion about two interesting structures on that thread, but I want to spin this from a "different angle"

Let's say you got dispatched to this, with a report of squatters trapped on the top floor of the vacant, wood frame OMD pictured below.

You arrive as the first due engine company (which is a 100' Quint), and moderate fire is showing out of the top floor, B side window closest to you. Heavy black smoke is present. And, oh yes, it's 3AM.....the middle of December and snowing. When you arrive, one person is out of the building but says there are still 4 more people there....they were smoking crack and had just lit a fire to "keep warm", when it quickly got out of control. You have hydrants with good water pressure, and your next due Engine is two minutes out. Your TL is questionable in the timeframe arriving, since Burlington's Tower is out of service-who would be next and what would the response time be? (Over 10 minutes, probaly Malden Pierce RM 100')

How would you handle controlling the fire and making the rescue without endangering your firefighters? Let me hear you concerns, thoughts, tatics, observations, etc.

There are a lot of tactical minds on this forum, and I'd like to hear some thoughts-posting=sharing=learning. Who knows, by one little tidbit you notice or mention, that could save a life when someone recalls this topic somewhere down the line.

I'll answer any questions, and you can reference the other thread by clicking here for further information.

(Side Note: When this building was condemed, it had 12 known apartments. It is currently scheduled to be razed, possibly this week due to the condition of the structure, after a court battle. The City Of Woburn, MA FD, PD and Building Dept. have done extensive pre-planning and know this structure well)

[bigfitz2004 19]

If I was the IC, I would dispatch a second FAST TEAM to the scene and quickly make it a 3rd alarm because of the condition of the building. The 1st due Engine has to start doing truck work I.e. Forcible Entry, Laddering, Ventilation Search & Rescue. Because I Truck company is 10 Minutes out. My 2nd due engine will hit the hydrant and start laying down line to the building.

But Seth I would like to know how many personal you have on each piece of Apparatus responding to the scene

[ldrco195 17]

Arriving on scene, I see the markings out front that represent it is a condemed building. Being that it is my first due, I was already aware of this. Placing the Quint Side A @ A/B Corner or A/D Corner I have the operator rasie the ladder to the roof.

When greeted by the person I attempt to gather information from the escaped sqatter exact location in the building these other people are, their condition (cons, stoned, etc) when he/she left them. I then order the truck w-o the leaving the safety of the ladder open the roof. Once the roof is open, I would then direct the crew to open the top floor windows and begin fire suppression from the exterioir. For no reason will I send ff's into the involved floors. If they saw a victim within reach or feel that they can safely get to them in a rapid method without risking definte ff lives.. get em.. any farther than that NO WAY..

If there is that much smoke showing as seth described.. if these individuals were on the fire floor on arrival.. they have probably succumded to the smoke at that point. I would much rather answer for 3-4 squatters that broke into a condemed building, lit a fire, while committing crimes....than why i have 4 dead firemen.

The remainder of the crews from the next arriving Engine establish water supply, and start to ladder the building and force the covered windows open to see if they can locate victims without making entry. ONLY.. AND ONLY IF there is a victim visiable from the windows outside will I even slightly consider entry into the building, but there are many other factors.. the advancement of the fire, smoke signals, etc...

Once those operations are complete... Call the sally wagon.. Set up the aerials... get mass transit for rehab & warmth.. prepare for a long night...

Edited November 20, 2007 by ldrco195

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I think someone pointed it out already but to me the only viable option in regard to the squatters would be VES after trying to pinpoint their location as exact as possible. There are entirely too many hazards to attempt to reach anyone from the interior. While they may have made it up there, generally they will know the hazards because they frequent that building and know where to step and not to step etc.

I pointed out in the other thread with this pictured that I would not commit any personnel to interior ops. Its vacant, condemned and no firefighter is worth that building. If anything we should charge the owner for demolition.

VES is an extremely efficient way to search for trapped victims particularly in residential settings where it gets you to the priority search areas rapidly.

As far as fire control....lay in from the hydrant, get the LDH out of the way so more aerials can arrive and get in position all while trying to find a good angle for the deck gun to reach the window with fire and any others where it is or may extend. If I'm the officer I'm going to try to determine where the trapped might be and direct the first due truck there and have an LDH line laid out waiting for them for their master stream. None of my personnel will be in that building. People are resiliant and often will not just sit and watch a fire. They may not react as expected, but in most cases you read about they get out or get to a window. The risk is not worth the benefit. If they are showing at windows...then it is a little more equal.

[firemoose827 324]

As far as tactics are concerned the previous posters covered it. I did not read the previous post but just from what you described to us and from what I see in the pictures, no one goes in. Those "Squatters" could be a trip being manifested from the original druggy, how do we know they exist? Secondly, how do we know they didnt already get out, heard the sirens and bailed for fear of being arrested?

I agree with everyone...Set up the quint on the A B Corner, do VES on the fire floor from the ladder, if they see someone than they can try to grab them. The other thing is, this building is boarded up tight. What fire conditions exist behind the plywood? Will it backdraft or flash when we remove the boards? Should we cut an inspection hole first? This is dangerous all around and Im not commiting any personnel interior. Lay in LDH, set up ladder pipes, and try to confine and extinguish. Chances are if there are people in there they will be near an exit anyway, studies show that people loose conciousness from the smoke while trying to reach an exit and most are found near exits. VES will find someone if they are in there, not 100% of the time, but its an effective way to locate someone rapidly. Otherwise, they have already succombed to the smoke and are not a viable rescue to endanger firefighters lives. It may sound cold but we didnt give them the drugs, we didnt make them shoot up and light a fire, we didnt kill them. We can only do what we can, and there comes a time to draw a line and determine who can be saved and who cant. One of the "Perks" of being officer I guess.

PS- I added an idea for Seth and Idrco195 to think about as far as these scenarios go on the other thread. Maybe it will help this idea? Let me know If I can help with it.

Moose

Edited November 20, 2007 by Jonesy368

[Guest]

THIS BUILDING AND IT'S EXPOSURES IS WHY GOD INVENTED TOWER LADDERS -------GET THE PLYWOOD OFF AS BEST AS YOU CAN AND INTRODUCE COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF WATER.

AS THE EVENING PROGRESSES HYDRAULIC OVERHAULING WILL CAP IT OFF.

SINCE THIS IS A STAND ALONE BUILDING AND HAS BEEN VACANT FOR AN UNKNOWN AMOUNT OF TIME,REMEMBER SOME BUILDINGS CAN BE VACANT FOR DECADES, RESPECT YOUR COLLAPSE ZONE AND EVERYBODY WILL GO HOME.

DON'T RISK LIVE FIREFIGHTERS IN DEAD BUILDINGS

[x635 4,066]

Now, this building has been boarded up pretty securely, with no tresspassing signs. What is the liability of the fire department if they get reports of someone trapped, but the risks outweigh the benefit? I mean it's a moral dilemma there.

Snotty is right, that's why God invented Tower Ladders. And in my opinions, Excavators with a claw attachment.

If there was nobody in the building, I would follow Snotty's advice to a T.

We have a lot of great minds here....I'm suprised more haven't chimed in. There's a lot of aspects of this building that lessons can come from, I for one would appreciate some of our more "seasoned" members letting us know what they think. So far though, the inputs been great!

[ny10570 745]

How about why is that building on fire? No power and no obvious external ignition source means you've quite possibly got someone inside.

[ja3kfd 34]

As stated the fire was started by people smoking crack and they got cold. We have no idea what the interior condition is like. Seth you ask the question about Moral Dilema, as so many older and wiser ,seasoned vets etc. Have said remember we did not create the situation the people we are going to help did. Yes it will bother me if there are 4 crack heads in there but I would not want to knock on anyones door to tell there wife and children Dad and Husband died in a booby trapped vacant building. To me there is No Reason to be in that building. If they are at the window or can be seen while venting, obviously we will get them but way too many unknowns for me.

But you also said that the FD has done EXTENSIVE pre planning, I see red X on some of the plywood on ground level what is that about is it a point of entry that is known to be okay ?

[JM15 386]

As stated the fire was started by people smoking crack and they got cold. We have no idea what the interior condition is like. Seth you ask the question about Moral Dilema, as so many older and wiser ,seasoned vets etc. Have said remember we did not create the situation the people we are going to help did. Yes it will bother me if there are 4 crack heads in there but I would not want to knock on anyones door to tell there wife and children Dad and Husband died in a booby trapped vacant building. To me there is No Reason to be in that building. If they are at the window or can be seen while venting, obviously we will get them but way too many unknowns for me.

But you also said that the FD has done EXTENSIVE pre planning, I see red X on some of the plywood on ground level what is that about is it a point of entry that is known to be okay ?

I think that the red x's mean that the building has been condemned.