EMT "accosted" by Fire Director on MVA scene

[orangEMT246 6]

I think this belongs in here because this covers both EMS and Fire. On the scene of a MVA with five patients trapped in a car, the fire director for the city of Newark approached a EMT "grabbed and shook him and told him 'this is a fire scene, back off.'" This sounds a little like who is in charge on a scene. University EMS does operate a heavy rescue with extracation equipment, and is usually called to serious MVA's. The link to the article is http://www.nj.com/starledger/stories/index....xml&coll=1 I don't want to start a EMS vs. Fire argument here. University EMS and the Newark FD work VERY WELL together and this is an isolated incident. Has this happened anywhere else? Again if anyone can post the article, it would be greatly appreciated.

Edited November 15, 2007 by orangEMT246

[Guest]

this has happened a few times in the past few years that i've witnessed, but nothing as hostile as this

[PVFD233 68]

I think this belongs in here because this covers both EMS and Fire. On the scene of a MVA with five patients trapped in a car, the fire director for the city of Newark approached a EMT "grabbed and shook him and told him 'this is a fire scene, back off.'" This sounds a little like who is in charge on a scene. University EMS does operate a heave rescue with extracation equipment, and is usually called to serious MVA's. The link to the article is http://www.nj.com/starledger/stories/index....xml&coll=1 I don't want to start a EMS vs. Fire argument here. University EMS and the Newark FD work VERY WELL together and this is an isolated incident. Has this happened anywhere else? Again if anyone can post the article, it would be greatly appreciated.

He had a purpose there, wonder what exactly drove the Fire Director to do that?

[Guest]

Fire director 'accosted' EMT at crash, union says

Booker asked to probe incident, which Giordano calls procedure dispute

Wednesday, November 14, 2007

BY JONATHAN SCHUPPE AND JEFFERY C. MAYS

Star-Ledger Staff

University Hospital rescue workers are asking Newark Mayor Cory Booker to investigate an alle gation that Fire Director David Giordano accosted an EMT at the scene of an early morning car crash in the city's Ironbound section earlier this month.

"I don't like what happened. It's outrageous," said John Gerow, president of Teamsters Local 97, which represents the hospital's emergency medical technicians. "These EMTs are well trained and certified and know what they're doing, and when there's a life hanging in the balance, why would anybody step in between them? It doesn't make sense."

Union business agent George A. Burr Jr. outlined the episode in a letter to Booker, saying Giordano "may have delayed patient care" when he showed up at a Nov. 4 ac cident scene where five people were trapped in a car at the corner of St. Charles Place and Rome Street.

As an EMT approached the victims just before 3 a.m., he was "ac costed" by Giordano, who grabbed and shook him and told him "this is a fire scene, back off," according to the letter. The EMT broke away to help get the victims out of the car, but Giordano "continued his diatribe of vulgarity and aggres sion" in front of other EMTs, firefighters, police and a crowd of onlookers.

Finally, Police Chief Anthony Campos showed up and escorted Giordano from the scene, the letter says. Newark police say no complaints were filed.

Lupe Todd, a spokeswoman for Booker, said Business Administrator Bo Kemp received a copy of the letter but it has yet to be reviewed by the mayor.

"If there is an allegation that a city employee allegedly put his hands on another person, one would anticipate there was a formal complaint filed with the police department, which we have not seen," said Todd. "Once the mayor is able to review the letter, he will most certainly forward it to the proper authorities."

The five victims made it to the hospital, where four of them were in critical condition but expected to recover, officials said.

In an interview yesterday, Gior dano denied assaulting the EMT. He said the real problem was vague city policy on which agency has authority at a scene that requires "ex trication" from a wrecked car.

"Nobody was ever assaulted," Giordano said. "There was a disagreement over who was in charge of the scene of a car extrication. It's usually whoever got there first and the understanding is we were there first."

Gerow, former head of the city's firefighters union, said the EMTs arrived at the scene first. He stressed that EMTs and firefighters rarely argue about who's in charge at accident scenes. That debate typically takes place among the brass, but that shouldn't happen at the scene.

"We can separate who should be doing what after the people are treated," he said. "Nothing should come in the way of treating victims of a car accident or any accident for that matter."

Gerow said he respected Gior dano's position, but Giordano, he said, "should have used a little bet ter judgment."

He added, "It shouldn't have happened, but cooler heads prevailed."

Giordano, who said he heard the call over the radio, was in the area and went to the scene.

"This is a non-issue that people are making into something," said Giordano. "It was a disagreement over who should have been in charge of the incident. We need to set standard operating procedure. I can't believe we have police, fire and rescue racing to a scene to say, 'It is my job.'"

Giordano said that with re cently obtained equipment, there is one fire company in each ward that can handle car extrications. By next year, there should be two fire companies in each ward to handle extrications.

Patient care was not compro mised because he was on the scene, Giordano said.

"All rescue workers were working on the scene when I got there and continued to work," Giordano said.

link: http://www.nj.com/starledger/stories/index....xml&coll=1

[Guest]

Arguments on scene are completely unneccesary and unprofessional. When I pull up on a scene and I am not the first unit I walk up and ask what the members on scene need me to do. The only time I would "overrule" someone is if it is putting a patient/victim in jeopardy.

If the rule is whichever agency arrives first they perform the extrication then that is what should have happened. This is why interagency meetings are necessary to avoid situations that lead to arguments.

[helicopper 1,050]

Is the fire "director" even part of the field staff or is that an administrative person who was on the scene?

It boggles my mind that we still have these stupid arguments at incident scenes.

[NJMedic 96]

Is the fire "director" even part of the field staff or is that an administrative person who was on the scene?

In NJ the position of Director is a political appointment of a civilain. For the most part one of the retired chiefs gets the position but the mayor can appoint whoever he feels like. This is the first time I have ever heard of a problem, in Newark that is.

[ny10570 745]

What an arse. There's never a reason to put hands on someone unless they are preventing you from doing your job. Even then, you'd better be pretty damn sure of yourself before you do. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never had these problems. Roll up on scene of an MVA and I go to who ever is operating and ask whats going on? There's always plenty of work to go around so there is no reason to not play nice in the sandbox.

[helicopper 1,050]

Is the fire "director" even part of the field staff or is that an administrative person who was on the scene?

In NJ the position of Director is a political appointment of a civilain. For the most part one of the retired chiefs gets the position but the mayor can appoint whoever he feels like. This is the first time I have ever heard of a problem, in Newark that is.

Thanks for the info - does this "political appointee" hold any fireground authority? Should HE even have been on the scene of an incident in the first place?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm a firefighter and I have to shake my head. The paramedic in me when operating at a car accident as a fire responder looks at extrication as an EMS assist. I'm facilitating access for them to their patient. If I'm a Paramedic they are there to assist me.

[JJB531 652]

What a tool.... who cares, I mean really... it's so ridiculously childish that the public has to see professional emergency service personnel, including an individual who is at a management level, crying about who got there first and who gets to perform the extrication... get a life...

[Remember585 815]

So the question remains..... WHO IS IN CHARGE? FD or EMS?!

[gss131 212]

I would say it all boils down to scene safety,which would fall under fire/police direction ,(whomever is performing the extrication)when access is complete,medical can operate but fire should be able to step in if they see something is not right,in a "perfect world it would work out nice if both functions can operate simultaneously" but i think fire should control scene with medical advisement.

[antiquefirelt 994]

We have this situation in our area. The next busiest EMS service to our Fire/EMS Dept. runs extrication for the four towns they provide EMS to. None of the four towns have extrictation tools and who does what is not an issue. The real issue I see is that the EMS sponsored extrication unit has no SOPs, are a private entity, have limited PPE and no command structure. Now many of the their members are firefighters in the surrounding towns, but to say the scene tend to be chaotic maybe a slight understatement. We have had a few opportunities to respond with them to MVA's in a town that borders us but they cover. Needless to say we've not had any major issues but I wouldn't/won't let them work in our area with proper PPE and a command structure. They do have some struggles with the primary town they cover and their FD, as it seems "who's in charge" is a daily argument.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Who is in charge...BOTH.

This is why using proper Incident Management under a unified command structure works. It is all encompassing, which is why it should be used on all fire calls and all calls where it is a multiple agency incident.

If there was a safety concern, the fire commander or safety officer would go to the EMS commander or safety officer face to face, advise them and let them handle it.

The FD is in responsible of public safety and EMS is responsible for patient care. A fire commander is not going to tell me how to treat my patient. They are there to mitigate hazards and afford me access and egress if necessary.

[helicopper 1,050]

Who is in charge...BOTH.

This is why using proper Incident Management under a unified command structure works. It is all encompassing, which is why it should be used on all fire calls and all calls where it is a multiple agency incident.

If there was a safety concern, the fire commander or safety officer would go to the EMS commander or safety officer face to face, advise them and let them handle it.

The FD is in responsible of public safety and EMS is responsible for patient care. A fire commander is not going to tell me how to treat my patient. They are there to mitigate hazards and afford me access and egress if necessary.

Thanks, ALS. You took most of the words right out of my keyboard.

FD is in charge of fire suppression/hazard mitigation/extrication.

PD is in charge of overall scene safety and security and investigation.

EMS is in charge of patient care and transportation.

Each has their own distinct area of responsibility and is "in charge" of their own resources. ALS is absolutely right - this is why unified command works - IF you put the three bosses together and have them communicate.

[ltjay157 10]

This is why I hate appointed Police, Fire, EMS officials. They have no training and get all loopy at the scene of an emergency. When I go to an MVA as a firefighter, I know my job is hazard mitigation, patient assesment/extrication. So when EMS gets there, I'm more than happy to turn patient care over to them. If i go on a EMS call, it's to assist EMS with lifting or just stabilizing the patient until the bus arrives. I let EMS call the shots on that one since we're assisting them. Pretty much it's the same people all working together all the time and know how everyone operates. Now you get a pencil pusher on the scene and things just go down the crapper. The fire coordinator shouldn't be responding to scenes unless he's been requested in my opinion. Maybe all the agencies should get together with these elected heads of each department and explain how they operate together.

[Future Fireman 4]

This is why I hate appointed Police, Fire, EMS officials. They have no training and get all loopy at the scene of an emergency. When I go to an MVA as a firefighter, I know my job is hazard mitigation, patient assesment/extrication. So when EMS gets there, I'm more than happy to turn patient care over to them. If i go on a EMS call, it's to assist EMS with lifting or just stabilizing the patient until the bus arrives. I let EMS call the shots on that one since we're assisting them. Pretty much it's the same people all working together all the time and know how everyone operates. Now you get a pencil pusher on the scene and things just go down the crapper. The fire coordinator shouldn't be responding to scenes unless he's been requested in my opinion. Maybe all the agencies should get together with these elected heads of each department and explain how they operate together.

You want to see appointed officials? Way back when, when a new mayor got elected in town, he would fire all the cops and hire all his friends. That's appointed for ya!

Note: I have no evidence that this is true, just passing on what a cop said to me on career day

Mike

[engine968 8]

I once read a very good book about Newark EMS. I got the idea that in that city the division of responsibility was EMS Heavy-Rescue handled MVA's and that FD Heavy-Rescue handled working fires. I might be mistaken but that was the impression I got. Also, ya' have to wonder what the politically appointed Director was doing showing up at an accident scene at that time of the morning. I'm sure that isn't SOP. One can't help but wonder if the Director might have been returning home from a social event, and might have been "under the influence". That sometimes accounts for unusual behavior of public officials in the wee hours of the morning. I'm not saying that was necessarily the case here, but ya' can't help but wonder.............

[Guest]

"It was a disagreement over who should have been in charge of the incident. We need to set standard operating procedure. I can't believe we have police, fire and rescue racing to a scene to say, 'It is my job.'"

This guy and everyone here obviously has no idea what its like pulling up to a reported pin job to have the car being towed away and ESU flipping the other car over. Its a joke, that jeopardizes lives daily in the Metro Area.