Boston- 3rd Alarm Video Link 11-12-07

[gss131 212]

wow,alot of critique from some obvious salty dogs(sarcasm)as als said the operator of the ladder may not have been chauffer .Aside from no airpacks and no one on the street letting the companys on the top floor know what was going on above them ,i see roof operations that went bad quick,ceilings being pulled on an already charged cockloft .How many guys with opinions have ever cut a flat roof on a 3 story frame with fire in the cockloft with wind swirling giving blackout conditions?Like I said ,I dont condone the no airpack situation,but unless you know what its like to have your feet burn from under you and you have evacuate quickly,some opinions should be kept to their owners.

Edited November 15, 2007 by gss131

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Obviously the video showed some really poor tactics being displayed on the roof, and the members of the BFD were very lucky no one was killed, aside from that just a few points to ponder. The roof was well vented and there was a good fire condition in the cockloft yet I didnt see a line operating from the top floor into the cockloft, I feel this would of made a huge difference. As far as the PPE is concerned it was a very poor showing but in there defense if you have ever tried to vent a roof while on air you know it is extremaly difficult if not impossible. One final query do all F.F.'s in Boston carry radios, it seemed that the guys on the roof were using hand signals to communicate with the ladder chauffer on where to put the aerial.

[Guest]

There is a brief discussion over on EMTBravo New England:

Boston 3rd Alarm: November 12, 2007

[SOlsonBFDL14 35]

Well seeing as how I appear to be the ONLY person here who actually OPERATED at this fire, albiet as part of the 2 & 2 fire detail that commenced at 1330hrs, I feel qualified to clear up a few things and inject some FACTS into this discussion.

1. There were TWO 2.5" lines operating on floor 3. The ceiling was constructed of wire lathe & plaster which made it difficult to open which contributed to the heavy conditions in the cockloft.

2. As far as PPE goes, of the four men that were operating up there I saw ONE with his coat open and that was as they were evacuating the roof area. I see FOUR helmets of the roof of the Exposure D building. Anyone care to guess where they came from? The men decided to minimize the risk of them falling off into the alleyway when they were evacuating. All members were wearing bunker coats & pants, boots and gloves.

3. I've NEVER worn a SCBA to a roof and can't imaging why on earth anyone would. If conditions are that bad that you need to be under air, then perhaps you don't belong on that roof in the first place. IMHO, and in the opinion of most of the men I work with, all the SCBA is is another 40lbs of unnecessary weight to lug up to the roof with you.

4. The operator of the aerial was a Captain on an Engine company who shall remain nameless. As a rule we do NOT leave a member behind on the turntable as we only run 1 & 3 and it's a waste of our precious resources.

5. As for all the Monday Morning Quarterbacking, we're all big boys so that's fine. What I find difficult to stomach however is the personal attacks. "Bunch of amatuers", "Embarrassing" and "These guys are paid?!" is, at least in my opinion a little over the top and I find it insulting as a member of the Boston Fire Department. I especially liked the gentleman from New York describing the weather conditions based on a video taken from a helicopter. The roof was NOT burned through, it was opened by members of Ladders 6 & 29, and there was little to NO wind (trust me we were up the street in Jamaica Plain until we were called to the scene at 1330hrs). It certainly makes it a lot easier to put out a fire in a cockloft if the roof is being opened while the ceiling is being pulled so I'm not sure why many of you would have had us abandon the roof so soon. I agree that a ground ladder probably should have been thrown to the roof in the rear, but hindsight is 20/20. This was not a perfect operation, but then again I've yet to see one that was. I don't think it's fair to critique or criticize our work unless you've actually done it, and from just glancing at the profiles and locations I'd wager the majority of you have NOT battled a fire in a triple decker. Feel free to flame me, bash me, criticize me what have you. I will sleep just fine tonight knowing that I am a member of the Boston Fire Department, a resident of the City of Boston and that I have the BEST job in the world.

Thank you.

[BIGRED1 71]

2. As far as PPE goes, of the four men that were operating up there I saw ONE with his coat open and that was as they were evacuating the roof area. I see FOUR helmets of the roof of the Exposure D building. Anyone care to guess where they came from? The men decided to minimize the risk of them falling off into the alleyway when they were evacuating. All members were wearing bunker coats & pants, boots and gloves.

3. I've NEVER worn a SCBA to a roof and can't imaging why on earth anyone would. If conditions are that bad that you need to be under air, then perhaps you don't belong on that roof in the first place. IMHO, and in the opinion of most of the men I work with, all the SCBA is is another 40lbs of unnecessary weight to lug up to the roof with you.

I am sort of confused here cause you said that you have never worn an SCBA on a roof with a smoke condition. Is that in the BFD SOP's? I would think that they would at least want you to be able to breath. Ya it weights a couple of pounds extra but it will keep you alive if the crap hits the fan. So if the roof had collapsed, the guys would have grabbed their helmets real quick before going down? I aint got an issue with you personally but how can you say that you think this is safe and normal. At the end of the day we want to go home and be safe but no one should go out of their way to put themselves in more danger that they already are in.

And if you watch the video from the chopper, that is his helmet he is kicking around and stomping out cause it was on fire.

[Mac8146 61]

QUOTE(SOlsonBFDL14 @ Nov 15 2007, 10:13 PM)

2. As far as PPE goes, of the four men that were operating up there I saw ONE with his coat open and that was as they were evacuating the roof area. I see FOUR helmets of the roof of the Exposure D building. Anyone care to guess where they came from? The men decided to minimize the risk of them falling off into the alleyway when they were evacuating. All members were wearing bunker coats & pants, boots and gloves.

3. I've NEVER worn a SCBA to a roof and can't imaging why on earth anyone would. If conditions are that bad that you need to be under air, then perhaps you don't belong on that roof in the first place. IMHO, and in the opinion of most of the men I work with, all the SCBA is is another 40lbs of unnecessary weight to lug up to the roof with you.

I guess you dont have a mandatory mask policy in place for your firefighters, certain days smoke doesnt lift or wind may cause it to hang low, so what we dont go to the roof on those days. The SCBA is a life line in case of emergency, maybe if they had Masks those members could have remained in a safe area of the roof not inhaling the toxic by products of the fire. Even in my dept. we have chinstraps to keep helmets on head, yes i believe in traditions but safety is now more a priority than ever. No Hoods yet in Boston how come, they do offer protection for use under the type of fire conditions you encountered. It took FDNY 2 deaths and serious injuries to re-issue Harness' why are Boston Firefighters not equiped with them. I know you have a great dept. but I hope you dont learn the hard way about safety. I understand the lack of manpower however having a qualified chauffeur on turntable is safer than what almost occurred.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

SOlsen:

Thank you for taking the time to give accountable information on the incident and insight into the operations and thinking within the tactics. I'm hoping you can see that not all involved in the conversation were so quick to judge with harsh comments, but some with thought and trying to give lessons.

The one thing I want to add in that a few of my colleagues have added and ask in a professional manner is the SCBA while going to the roof. I understand the point of view and thought concept, but I have vented roofs where I did have to go on air, to just make the roof through heavy smoke conditions venting from the windows and egress in the same manner. I would be a hippocrit if I stated I often or even on a regular basis was on air while venting. But I tell my guys, if you cough, put it on. It also affords me a level of protection in the event I have to egress the roof in hostile conditions. I remember an incident out west which had video, could have been Phoenix where while attempting to ventilate a peaked roof with spanish tile 2 members fell into the attic that was involved in fire, the fact they had full PPE and their SCBA donned preventing any injury.

With that said I again want to say that I am glad that the bottom line was that everyone went home.

[Monty 35]

Thank you for the information from your side of the incident. I must admit, that looking at the video and the fire blowing out then seeing how much of the structure was left - I was impressed by the stop.

However, I'm sure the brothers down South had many similar thoughts about the way they did things in Charleston. Unfortunately they lost 9 firefighters that time. I'm sure everyone here is very glad that there were no serious injuries here. However, because you got away with it this time, and the time before that, and before that does not mean you will always get away with it.

Well seeing as how I appear to be the ONLY person here who actually OPERATED at this fire, albiet as part of the 2 & 2 fire detail that commenced at 1330hrs, I feel qualified to clear up a few things and inject some FACTS into this discussion.

1. There were TWO 2.5" lines operating on floor 3. The ceiling was constructed of wire lathe & plaster which made it difficult to open which contributed to the heavy conditions in the cockloft.

2. As far as PPE goes, of the four men that were operating up there I saw ONE with his coat open and that was as they were evacuating the roof area. I see FOUR helmets of the roof of the Exposure D building. Anyone care to guess where they came from? The men decided to minimize the risk of them falling off into the alleyway when they were evacuating. All members were wearing bunker coats & pants, boots and gloves.

3. I've NEVER worn a SCBA to a roof and can't imaging why on earth anyone would. If conditions are that bad that you need to be under air, then perhaps you don't belong on that roof in the first place. IMHO, and in the opinion of most of the men I work with, all the SCBA is is another 40lbs of unnecessary weight to lug up to the roof with you.

4. The operator of the aerial was a Captain on an Engine company who shall remain nameless. As a rule we do NOT leave a member behind on the turntable as we only run 1 & 3 and it's a waste of our precious resources.

5. As for all the Monday Morning Quarterbacking, we're all big boys so that's fine. What I find difficult to stomach however is the personal attacks. "Bunch of amatuers", "Embarrassing" and "These guys are paid?!" is, at least in my opinion a little over the top and I find it insulting as a member of the Boston Fire Department. I especially liked the gentleman from New York describing the weather conditions based on a video taken from a helicopter. The roof was NOT burned through, it was opened by members of Ladders 6 & 29, and there was little to NO wind (trust me we were up the street in Jamaica Plain until we were called to the scene at 1330hrs). It certainly makes it a lot easier to put out a fire in a cockloft if the roof is being opened while the ceiling is being pulled so I'm not sure why many of you would have had us abandon the roof so soon. I agree that a ground ladder probably should have been thrown to the roof in the rear, but hindsight is 20/20. This was not a perfect operation, but then again I've yet to see one that was. I don't think it's fair to critique or criticize our work unless you've actually done it, and from just glancing at the profiles and locations I'd wager the majority of you have NOT battled a fire in a triple decker. Feel free to flame me, bash me, criticize me what have you. I will sleep just fine tonight knowing that I am a member of the Boston Fire Department, a resident of the City of Boston and that I have the BEST job in the world.

Thank you.

[ny10570 745]

Everyone said what I was thinking, but I cannot express how much I support SCBA on your back at ALL times. If the place isn't safe enough for you to stay then you should be on air. ALS, you're right the video is from Phoenix. Both guys went into the hole and were engulfed in fire. No encapsulation would have meant a guaranteed trip to the hospital. Arrange a tour of the local burn unit. They are usually more than willing to accommodate firefighters because they are tired of seeing us in there for preventable injuries. There is no more of a deeply disturbing smell than burnt human flesh. It reaches you on a visceral level. Burned skin can be repaired and you can come back. Your airway is so susceptible to irreversible damage that other than support the body's own healing process there is little that can be done after a burn.

[Monty 35]

mp4 video files of the fire can be downloaded from http://haxbox.stashbox.org/51722/MattapanFireBostonNov12.zip -the good, the bad and the ugly

I could play them on real player and quick time. Hope its useful.