Quality builders

[Dondestro 9]

I know its everyone's personal prefrence but i am interested in hear everyones reason they perfer a specific brand truck/engine. I personally perfer pirece and would never get an e-one. 2nd choice would be a american la france

[Remember585 815]

First off, I think a lot of it has to do with the way you spec it out. People complain about the apparatus but when you really look into it you see that their specs weren't very specific leaving room for "cheaper" design.

In the past few years we have taken delivery of a Pierce quint, an ALF pumper and a Seagrave pumper. Here's what I can tell you.

Pierce

The rig was a demo unit and was an emergency purchase. It's a 2002 all stainless steel construction. The overall construction of this apparatus seems very solid, the welds seem tight and clean, the body is sound, and overall it's a decent rig. BUT, being it's a demo and the drivetrain of this unit was made more for highway driving (to show it at shows, etc) it has no climbing power. Additionally, there have been a couple of problems I remember concerning the hydraulics in the bucket and the outriggers not nesting correctly. A couple of other things were more "our doing" and in one case the service rep forgot to put a cap back on spraying oil all over the place. So far the Truck has been dependable, being out of service maybe only a couple of days total in the five years we have had it.

American LaFrance

We got this shortly after the Pierce. When it first arrived it was delayed going into service due to electrical problems. Over time I recall a few celanoids being replaced, fuses and other electronics equipment. It too is made of stainless steel. Aside from my personal "quams" about it's design, the apparatus has been fairly reliable since the beginning and it's hiccups. I don't really care for how much plastic was used in the cab, specifically in the back where handlights mounted to the back wall had already cracked it and started pulling it away from the cab. A piece of aluminum was put in to make it more sturdy to mount. There have been a couple of electrical problems since - I seem to remember at least two times where the whole apperatus electrical systems crapped out going to an alarm. Additionally I found a lot of the welds to be poor, a lot of burns were seen and most welds weren't made the full run, instead you have welds in several spots with filler in between. Overall I am not a huge fan - maybe it's just ours, maybe not.

Seagrave

This is the newest rig, a 2006. It also is stainless steel design. The cab is like a tank, solid as hell. The body is the same. I am impressed with the apparatus, we haven't had a single thing wrong with it thus far (knock on wood). It's only been out of service for usual punch-list things and routine maintenance. I'm not crazy about the paint job but that's not important to the functionality of the rig. It's also the loudest motor in the fleet - the inside cab noise is very LOUD. I am told it's mostly because of the engine itself (Detroit series 60). Overall I like this apparatus and would recommend it to others. The things I would change aren't who built the apparatus, but are design things we chose ourselves.

If you ever want to come over and see what I am talking about let me know. For my money and in my opinion I would stick with Pierce or Seagrave - of course my experience with them is limited and others may have more to offer.

[DOC22 1]

We've been using Gowans Knight out of Watertown Ct. We use Sparton Gladiators for the pumpers and rescue. They are relatively local, and very reliable. If there are any problems, if we can't get to them, they'll come to us.

[scopino 0]

Took about 2 years to get our Ferrara's in decent shape. Customer Service was terrible

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Pierce? Kinda funny...I prefer E-One. Never had any major problems with any I've served on since 1995 and locally their service is awesome. I came from an all E-One apparatus county in Virginia.

But I do want to point out one thing:

Pierce, E-One, Ferrara, ALF, Seagrave.......guess what:

All for the most part:

Allison transmissions

Detroit, cummins or catapillar engines

Hale or waterous pumps

and the list can go on and on.

The only difference are the body types (even these aren't much different anymore) and the name on the outside.

[Guest]

Pierce? Kinda funny...I prefer E-One. Never had any major problems with any I've served on since 1995 and locally their service is awesome. I came from an all E-One apparatus county in Virginia.

But I do want to point out one thing:

Pierce, E-One, Ferrara, ALF, Seagrave.......guess what:

All for the most part:

Allison transmissions

Detroit, cummins or catapillar engines

Hale or waterous pumps

and the list can go on and on.

The only difference are the body types (even these aren't much different anymore) and the name on the outside.

[Guest]

Well I will go with MACK,

But since thier not fire apparatus manufactures anymore, I will go with Seagrave.

[Guest partyrock]

As ALS said, the components are all the same but there are still some differences with vehicle construction. Seagrave is one of the few who still does everything custom for custom apparatus. From wiring harnesses to the holes punched in the frame its all done for each spec. Pierce and ALF are built like a prefab house. When they're done right they're great, but bug chasing can go on for ever if someone screws up in production. Structurally the difference shouldn't matter except under the most severe conditions. Seagraves are often knocked for lacks in creature comforts but the trade-offs are worth the rewards. The service for Segrave has sucked horribly the past few years. If you do go with them stay away from Northern New Jersey dealers.

Scopino, I'm guessing your service is coming out of Long Island. I've been out to their shops and while they are a great bunch of guys they suck at their job. I've heard some good things about the company but I have little experience with the rigs.

[Engfire 0]

I am kinda partial to Smeal we have and engine and quint, but we have a 91 Pierce and it is a fantastic engine and have not really had any problems except having to replace some orginal parts earlier this year. The Smeal quint is great but they wish they got a tadem axel big stick rather than a 75' stick, because the chassis is overloaded, but I love having the steel stick. Its fairly certain that from hear on out we will be buying Smeal mainly because its a good product and we receive outstanding support from the dealer. To comment on E-one our other qunit is a 75' 97 E-one no major problems with it. Lastly I will say that the condition of our apprartus is so good because we don't run it constantly and have a good maintance dept.

[Capejake72 8]

Ive run Pierce, E-One, both are good rigs, KME are terrible, the quality is less than in a mass produced vehicle, Sutphen seems quite good, Maxim was probably the best, but they are no longer in business

[Reliance 29]

Ive run Pierce, E-One, both are good rigs, KME are terrible, the quality is less than in a mass produced vehicle, Sutphen seems quite good, Maxim was probably the best, but they are no longer in business

In Nove Scotia, Canada it is: Pierce, E-One, Metalfab, Lantz Truck Bodies, LRB Fabricators, Fort Garry Ind., Allain MFG., Hub

[ddoyle195 8]

My personal preferences are the following:

1) American La France

2) Pierce

3) 4 Guys

4) Seagrave

5) Crimson

6) Sutphen

If they were still around my 1 & 2 would be Young & Maxim

Remember 585 hit the nail on the head perfect by saying this right off the bat:

"First off, I think a lot of it has to do with the way you spec it out. People complain about the apparatus but when you really look into it you see that their specs weren't very specific leaving room for "cheaper" design."

Oh how true it is! There are many variables to speccing out a fire apparatus that can go wrong. Sales, Engineering, production, service, and yes THE FIRE DEPARTMENT!

What the fire department? I think the fire department in a 1/4 of the cases are their own worst enemy when you spec out a rig. Some departments are phenominal, have done research for a few years and come up with the following:

Vehicle desired- what is it your looking for?

Apparatus Budget

Requested delivery

Maximum height, width, & length.

What is the functions this truck will be expected to do for you (Ex. 1st out piece, mutual aid, mva's, multi tasking, etc.).

What type of Engine & transmission

Crew capacity

Steel or aluminum wheels

Flat or raised roof cab

What size pump you want and what brand of pump you want

Is the pump housing going to be midship, top mount, or rear mount

Water tank size and material of the water tank (Traditional you"ll have fiberglass or polypropolene unless you get into tankers.)

Is the truck going to have a foam system or is your department going to carry foam on the truck and the firefighters dump the foam in the water tank.

What body material do you you want to go with

Equipment data- Where you want your present equipment to be located. Also what is the proposed new equipment to be ordered with the new vehicle.

Two other big ones to consider is a generator for the truck. What size of generator, hydraulic, disel, and where the generator is to be located. Believe it or not where the generator is to be located is big! For example putting a generator in the upper dunnage area of your pump enclosure may take up space for extra equipment. Also make sure the manufacturer gives adequate ventilation for the generator to run properly. Hydraulic generators especially run hot and need proper ventilation for the unit to cool!

The other is the rating of the front and rear axles. This is a simple theory, if the truck is sagging without any equipment just imagine what it would weigh once you jam all your equipment in it. Is it the engineers fault for not designing the truck properly, partially. The other problem comes with the information the truck committee gives the sales and engineering department. Here's a hypathetical example: If the fire department says well we have about 4000lbs of additional equipment to put on the truck when in actuality it weighs 10,000lbs. thats going to make the truck much heavier.

Remember 585 also hit it on the head which most fire departments don't understand is all fire apparatus manufacturers use the same vendors for a majority of the things you put on a fire truck. I think the biggest variance is with pumps and Pierce only builds on Waterous pumps last I knew.

Servicing of your new vehicle will also make life a little more difficult. Saying "I won't go with an American La france because we can't stand dealing with their service" is bogus in my opinion. Or saying "We're not going to buy a 4guys because where are we going to get it serviced?" Thats bogus too. Yes each manufacturer has warranties on these vehicles. In my opinion If you don't like a dealership don't take your truck to them for service, take it to another dealership you like, or take it to an independant dealership. Ya for warranty work your going to pay for it rather tan being covered by the appropriate dealership but thats up to the fire department on what they do. Back home there is a fire department who has a fleet of Sutphens, but will take their trucks to an ALF dealership because they like the service.

In closing what I am saying is this:

A) Come to the table with your truck commitee with an open mind and with people who have strangths in each area. Yes we all want our names on that plaque that will be on that truck for 20 years, and 9 out of 10 times your commitee is made up of line officers, but put people on that commitee who have backround in electrical, who are auto tech's, who are truck drivers and let them voice their opinions.

Take your time with this. Remember this vehicle is serving your community for at least 10 years if not longer. If you rush and slap a truck together and once you get it realize this is not what we wanted, guess what your stuck with. That usually starts the bad mouthing about apparatus manufacturers. If it takes you 2-3 years to spec a vehicle between the time of going to trade shows to see whats out there and to meet with respective salesmen, then do it! Things will always change within the time span you have your rig. You"ll add, delete, reconfigure a truck, you"ll never build the perfect truck that will never change. Also narrow your search down at some point after you meet with the respective salesmen and take the pro's and cons of each company and see what best fits your fire department.

C) When you talk to salesmen for each manufacturer give him as much information as possible to work with. Chances are the more you give him to work with the better he or she can help you build the right truck for your department.

D) If there is something you want, make sure it is in your spec!!! Come May when you have one month left to go before the truck gets to your station and you want addional lights put on, chances are the manufacturer will charge you for it. Most manufacturers will charge you for additional items after a specified date that you can make change orders. This is done because your truck was bid at a certain price, and the manufacturer doesn't want to loose money by giving a department items for free. Also the more stuff you add during the production of the truck, the longer it will take to build and get delivered to your staion.

E) Another good tip is have all loose equipment you want to be mounted on your new vehicle at the plant or respective dealership by a certain date. For example if a manufacturer or dealership has to mount your hydraulic tools they not only need to know where they are going but what type of tool it is. Some shops use pre manufactured mounting, some fabricate mounting stuff, and not every tool is the same.

[Guest]

Yeah, like it was said, how it is spec'd out makes all of the difference.

We started out using "Young Fire Apparatus" out of Ohio. They are no longer in business. They used to make a quality fire engine, but they went downhill in the late 1980's. Their engines we used were falling apart, and the hydraulic gate valves were difficult to use. It was almost impossible to gate a line down.

Then, we went to Ferrara Fire Apparatus out of Louisiana. The trucks were fairly decent, but the chassis were commerical instead of custom, so they really didn't last that long. The last generation of Ferrara's we pruchased had a trouble-prone all electric pump control (throttle/governer/etc.). It failed on me once during a fire, and I haven't trusted them since. There was no manual override!!!

This year our contract with Ferrara ran out and the new bid went to E-One. A lot of guys don't like the Typhoon chassis, especially the ones sitting in the front seat because of the lack of room, but overall I think it is an excellent truck. We have purchased about 20 of them, and for the most part they have been a good quality truck.

... just my 2 cents worth ...

Lt. Craig

Edited November 15, 2007 by firerescuelieut

[E-38VMFD 0]

Our company has a Seagrave and it is a excellent truck. the only problem we have had is the the dealer installed generator, it worked then it didn't. Other then that, solid truck, good ride. overall its a basic truck nothing special. the dealer is actually is right in mamaroneck and do every thing for us and on any make. The company is called Excelsior Fire Equipment they sell seagrave and fix anything. Im sure that most of southern Westchester uses them. they do good work