Peoples lives put in danger due to fueding departments?

[PVFD233 68]

So what, this is something that NEEDS to be addressed if Departments are skipping over others that CAN provide quality service, then they should put their freakin' egos (or politics) aside when there's a call and they need a hand.

xfirefighter484x, that's what Dispatch is for. Use other Depts., although not the whole dept, (maybe an engine or truck) to fill up station coverage.

My personal opinion only.

Mike

He was just giving some advice.

[x134 46]

So what, this is something that NEEDS to be addressed if Departments are skipping over others that CAN provide quality service, then they should put their freakin' egos (or politics) aside when there's a call and they need a hand.

xfirefighter484x, that's what Dispatch is for. Use other Depts., although not the whole dept, (maybe an engine or truck) to fill up station coverage.

My personal opinion only.

Mike

I am just saying that srs should not be the spokesperson, and if he is a member in a near by department will his officers tell him to be quiet. This is an issue that the Chief staff or Commissioners in the districts involved should solve. I would not be willing to put my own head on the chopping block. Future fireman, I don't know how long if at all you have been involved in the fireservice, but having a problem with a neighbor is not good. You seem kind of young to be giving that kind of opinion. Not defending them but it may not be an ego thing. We don't know. Will someone from Hugh....... or Newha..... please end this by giving some info.

Edited October 27, 2007 by drobison82

[emt301 4]

srs 2308 be carefull when posting things like this. Anyone from this area can figure out the departments that are involved. I heard it too, and was just leaving the Outback and said to myself hmmm. There are members of these departments on this board. DON'T GET YOURSELF JAMMED UP.Let it roll off and move on......

Actually, I don't think there should be a problem with him posting something like this. Open discussion is how problems are addressed and then hopefully resolved. Part of the reason that the issue raised even exists is that it's known only to members of the fire service - it's our "dirty little secret". If the media, and more importantly the taxpayers, knew of the games that get played with regards to appropriate mutual aid, many people would likely be outraged.

I understand what you mean by someone not wanting to get themselves jammed up, but it's also admirable when someone is willing to speak their mind when a problem needs solving.

Edited October 27, 2007 by emt301

[Future Fireman 4]

I'll take it upon myself to shut up.

[helicopper 1,050]

Actually, I don't think there should be a problem with him posting something like this. Open discussion is how problems are addressed and then hopefully resolved. Part of the reason that the issue raised even exists is that it's known only to members of the fire service - it's our "dirty little secret". If the media, and more importantly the taxpayers, knew of the games that get played with regards to appropriate mutual aid, many people would likely be outraged.

Agreed, he's not a member of either agency involved (according to his post) and is asking a question that prompted an interesting discussion. Being a member of an emergency service agency does not diminish his right to ask question and learn from the answers.

If we only allowed questions to be answered within our own agencies we'd be using revolvers, wearing rubber turnout coats and boots, and giving bicarb to cardiac arrest victims (just to be equal opportunity). His statements are neither inflammatory or accusatory so if the involved agencies don't like the question - they need to answer it or get a thicker skin themselves.

We have to remember that we are still accountable to our constituency and that is the public!

[helicopper 1,050]

I am just saying that srs should not be the spokes person, and if he is a member in a near by department will his officers tell him to be quiet. This is an issue that the Chief staff or Commissioners in the districts involved should solve. I would not be willing to put my own head on the chopping block. Future fireman, I don't know how long if at all you have been involved in the fireservice, but having a problem with a neibor is not good. You seem kind of young to be giving that kind of opinion. Not defending them but it may not be an ego thing. We don't know. Will someone from Hugh....... or Newha..... please end this by giving some info.

Agreed - the problem can only be solved by Chief or Commissioners but the questions or problems can be pointed out by anyone! That's the beauty of our country.

[Guest partyrock]

apparently there isn't any pressure coming from within these depts to change this practice and no one has stepped up to explain away any misunderstanding. Sometimes the pressure for reform has to come from the outside.

[x134 46]

Actually, I don't think there should be a problem with him posting something like this. Open discussion is how problems are addressed and then hopefully resolved. Part of the reason that the issue raised even exists is that it's known only to members of the fire service - it's our "dirty little secret". If the media, and more importantly the taxpayers, knew of the games that get played with regards to appropriate mutual aid, many people would likely be outraged.

I understand what you mean by someone not wanting to get themselves jammed up, but it's also admirable when someone is willing to speak their mind when a problem needs solving.

emt301 from working at the County do you know anything about this?

[emt301 4]

emt301 from working at the County do you know anything about this?

I'm not familiar with the specific incident which apparently initiated this topic. I am, however, aware of a couple of departments in the county that tend to use "questionable" mutual aid practices. It's quite frustrating as a dispatcher when you know who should be sent under mutual aid & are trying to do the job to the best of your ability, only to have your hands tied by fire department politics.

Edited October 27, 2007 by emt301

[JetPhoto 626]

Not to mention one department was at a wake for a past chief at the time of the incident

I had a situation in my district a couple of months ago where their was a fire literally 50 feet away from my district line and the chief did not call us but departments from the other side of town. My department (responded in under a minute) did get called but only because water command wanted our tanker then the IC immediately canceled us.

We have always been their when they or anyone else has asked for our help. I'm afraid it will take someone getting killed & a lawsuit in order for departments to get a wake up call.

(Chief Bla Bla Bla why did you call a department 8 miles away when a neighboring fire dept's line was 50 feet away from the burning building and they have a fire station 1 mile away and they have the same equipment?

Um Uh.....

Politics in the fire service SUCKS! But good luck eliminating it.

Just my personal 2 cents

[Guest CRASH]

WELL SAID VAC...

.

.

AS FAR AS FAST TEAMS I MAY BE WRONG BUT ON A WORKER DO YOU NOT WANT TO BYPASS YOUR CLOSEST M/A DEPT DUE TO POSSIBLY LACKING MANPOWER TO HANDLE THE WORKER AND MAYBE DEPENDING ON WHERE YOUR NEXT FAST TEAM IS LOCATED CALL THEM IN..... THE LADDDER HEY THERES NO F....ING EXCUSE TAKE THE FIRST AVAILABLE SEEKING A SPECIFIC M/A LADDER CAN COST LIVES.....

[JBE 328]

I've glossed over this subject and cameup with some solutions and opinions. Number one, the issue should be brought up with the officers of the said department. Number 2, send the closest available MA and then relocate/backfill/tone out for more MA. Number 3, the county fire coordinator/DES director should step in and get the chiefs together for a little meeting. They should use the same statement that was made here earlier, "The politics end when the tones go off." You will request the nearest available mutual aid, regardless of what department it is. Example, if Carmel has a fire at Palmer Agency on 52 and Fair Street, they would request Lake Carmel, Brewster and Mahopac for MA, in order of distance. If for the sake of argument, there's an area where long stretches are needed, ask P911 to special call 11-8-1. Get everybody on the same page, and have a fire coordinator who can put aside any allegiance to the department they originally belonged to and say, "This is how it is going to be, and that's final."

As for the department that went MA for use of the cascade system, and they pitched a fit because they weren't going to work, simple solution there. The IC should turn around and say, "Listen, you were requested for the use of that cascade system, If I need you for relief, I will let you know." If they continue to complain, the IC should then say, "I'm running this scene and you will operate as directed, and I will discuss it with your chief when things are under control." It's called having authority and putting it to use. I strongly doubt they will complain further, or, pack up and leave.

Just a thought or two. Looking through rosy colored, perfect world glasses.

[Future Fireman 4]

I've glossed over this subject and cameup with some solutions and opinions. Number one, the issue should be brought up with the officers of the said department. Number 2, send the closest available MA and then relocate/backfill/tone out for more MA. Number 3, the county fire coordinator/DES director should step in and get the chiefs together for a little meeting. They should use the same statement that was made here earlier, "The politics end when the tones go off." You will request the nearest available mutual aid, regardless of what department it is. Example, if Carmel has a fire at Palmer Agency on 52 and Fair Street, they would request Lake Carmel, Brewster and Mahopac for MA, in order of distance. If for the sake of argument, there's an area where long stretches are needed, ask P911 to special call 11-8-1. Get everybody on the same page, and have a fire coordinator who can put aside any allegiance to the department they originally belonged to and say, "This is how it is going to be, and that's final."

As for the department that went MA for use of the cascade system, and they pitched a fit because they weren't going to work, simple solution there. The IC should turn around and say, "Listen, you were requested for the use of that cascade system, If I need you for relief, I will let you know." If they continue to complain, the IC should then say, "I'm running this scene and you will operate as directed, and I will discuss it with your chief when things are under control." It's called having authority and putting it to use. I strongly doubt they will complain further, or, pack up and leave.

Just a thought or two. Looking through rosy colored, perfect world glasses.

JBE, you hit the nail on the head (or in this case hit the chief with falling embers! )

Mike

[Monty 35]

.....

Do we discuss stripping a small area of similar apparatus? Is it sometimes a better choice to call for apparatus a little farther away to prevent a concentrated area from being down similar apparatus? For example, your closest FASTeam gets called to a scene, and they get put to work. Now, do you call the next closest FASTeam to replace them, thus now taking 2 FASTeams right next to each other OOS?

I think it is a great idea to go out a little farther, in SOME CASES6. Does this thought process come in to play as a factor for these decisions, or is this an after thought used as a reason to back up a decision?? I would put money on the latter, IN MOST CASES! I can not say some people do not specifically think of these considerations, some people are very thoughtful as that goes, but in greater instances, someone is mad at another department because some old timer pissed in someone else's corn flakes when they were younger, and some conflict started, and everyone just generally accepts that fact because, classic to the fire service. "thats how its always been".

......

Well, I think this may be a poor example, and perhaps a bit off topic - if you called a FAST, then there should always be FAST available. If you need to 'put them to work' call another FAST and have them on scene first. Or maybe better off, call another mutual aid department!

Now I know I've discussed this before, but think of the liability. You call a department from across the county and they get involved in an MVA, try explaining in court why you needed that specific department. If you need resouces that much that they have to respond in emergency mode, why not use the closes available, trained resources?

As for 'stripping' a department, it should be that Chief / Senior Officer's responsibility to deny the mutual aid request, or more likely call for cover for his/her department - in non-emregency mode.

[Oswegowind 17]

I am just saying that srs should not be the spokesperson, and if he is a member in a near by department will his officers tell him to be quiet. This is an issue that the Chief staff or Commissioners in the districts involved should solve. I would not be willing to put my own head on the chopping block. Future fireman, I don't know how long if at all you have been involved in the fireservice, but having a problem with a neighbor is not good. You seem kind of young to be giving that kind of opinion. Not defending them but it may not be an ego thing. We don't know. Will someone from Hugh....... or Newha..... please end this by giving some info.

In case you hadn't noticed, this is a free country, and we all have the freedom to speak. You have no right to warn him about being "jammed up" over opening his mouth about a situation, our Bill Of Rights ensure that he cannot be disciplined or treated unfairly resultant of speech that does not offend anyone. That is the problem with the emergency services...no one speaks up! If someone doesn't like the issue that is being raised maybe they should mull it over and make an appropriate decision, one that makes sense, provides safety, and puts no ones lives in danger including those that are traveling the roadways that the apparatus from further away will be using to get to the scene. Discussions like these are necessary and if people could put their ego's in their pockets, they may actually learn something or at least get some ideas. There are way too many people that just believe their ideas are the best and most practical...and that is why people are constantly clashing!

[Ex-2114 7]

As a tax payer to the town that this particular issue ocurred in, I am well beyond concerned for my life and property. How dare the 'host' department play God based on personal friendships or the good ol' boy network when people's lives are in jeopardy.

If an alarm is serious enough to require a mutual aid reposnse, then the nearest qualified department should be the one to respond. And by qualified, I mean one that can provide the staff and equipment.

Why, in Dutchess, can't departments call DC911 and say "I need 1 and 1 to the scene and 1 Engine to stand-by in our quarters"??

How, in Dutchess, can departments have appropriate ISO certifications at certain levels, if they pull crap like this??? Response times are one thing, BUT..... This type of BS warrants an ISO re-evaluation.

A fire is a fire. If you need manpower, and the department in the next district is 2 miles down the road, and the Chief's buddie is the Chief of the department in the district 6 miles down the road, tough crap!!! You bring in the department that is 2 miles down the road. If you are that hell-bent to bring in your buddies department, invite them also, but not at the expense of my life, my family's life, or my friend's lives.

Granted, under special circumstances, you need to bypass your immediate neighbors. For example, if you have a Mobil Super Tanker explode into flames in your district, no matter where you are, you would call DC Airport, IBM's Foam truck, Indian Point's foam truck.... and so on. Been there, done that (in the City of White Plains - a propane truck into a bridge and in Hawthorne with a Mystic gas tanker).

Perhaps, since soooo many people heard this particular incident on the radio, that the powers that be at DC911 or Supervisor Ruggiero listen to the tapes of that particular call. What if the Poughkeepsie Journal were to request the transcripts of the tapes (FOIL) and published them???

If the Chief of this particular department is going to be so choosy as to who he invites to his Mutual Aid calls, maybe he needs to no longer be chief!!! It sounds like Ex-Chief is more fitting of a title.

Good thing I live in the New Hackensack fire district I guess.

And one more thing - SRS is 1000% in the right for posting this topic. One day, YOU, me, or anyone else that lives on this dirt pile named Earth could be driving down Route 9 in the Town of Wappinger and need help, but because one Chief doesn't like the other Chief.... well.... most of you can figure out the rest.

Jeff.

[x134 46]

In case you hadn't noticed, this is a free country, and we all have the freedom to speak. You have no right to warn him about being "jammed up" over opening his mouth about a situation, our Bill Of Rights ensure that he cannot be disciplined or treated unfairly resultant of speech that does not offend anyone. That is the problem with the emergency services...no one speaks up! If someone doesn't like the issue that is being raised maybe they should mull it over and make an appropriate decision, one that makes sense, provides safety, and puts no ones lives in danger including those that are traveling the roadways that the apparatus from further away will be using to get to the scene. Discussions like these are necessary and if people could put their ego's in their pockets, they may actually learn something or at least get some ideas. There are way too many people that just believe their ideas are the best and most practical...and that is why people are constantly clashing!

You are 100% right it is a free country. As I stated the Chief and commissioners of the departments involved should solve the problem. Not a member or X member that has a problem with the powers that be. Instead of stirring up trouble on a message board if this person is so concerned go to the fire department or town government and let them know about it and actually get the problem solved. Also maybe the chief has his own reasons for calling who he wants and its not what we think.

[Guest]

You are 100% right it is a free country. As I stated the Chief and commissioners of the departments involved should solve the problem. Not a member or X member that has a problem with the powers that be. Instead of stirring up trouble on a message board if this person is so concerned go to the fire department or town government and let them know about it and actually get the problem solved. Also maybe the chief has his own reasons for calling who he wants and its not what we think.

Let me just say that I have sat back and watched the fighting that has come about by this topic and I am extremely surprised. I have been on and off of this site for about a year and a half now and have seen how knowlegable everyone on this board is. I just cant believe that so many people have an issue with this topic. The only thing that tells me is that those who have a problem with this topic must be one of those people that do this tpe of thing. And as for you X134, I am not nor have I ever been a member of any of these departments. Nor do I care to be. I simply was asking a question to see if there was a reason why this was happening due to I live in the district in question and I was appalled that my life or neighbors lives could be put in danger because of petty squables. Which I know for a fact is the reason that this has occured and keeps occuring. You want me to go to the department, trust me I just may. As I also may just notify a local newspaper and the citizens of this community so everyone knows what is going on. I put it on this board to get answers so it would not escalate to a chance of it being brought to the local medias attention. I am sure that the parties involved love what they do and I really dont want to see them get "JAMMED UP" for what they are doing. If this were to be made puplic they could lose their posistion and maybe even be thrown out of the department. I have to much respect for what all of you do day in day out putting your lives on the line. And I am extremely greatful to know that you are there to help me and everyone else if I were to ever need emergency assitance. But I would just like to know that everything is being done appropriatly and that petty squables are not hindering the help I may need. So I do apologize for bringing this up and starting trouble with everyone but I just want to know that I am as safe as I can possibly be.

And know that I will not be taking this any further then this board, but it should not be forgotten. Hopefully in some way this will help prevent against further instances like this from happening again with these departments or any departments for that matter. Have a good night and thanks again for your time and I apologize for offending anyone, it was not my intention.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

It happens around here a LOT more often than people hear, and more often than people actually post about. I commend you SRS for bringing this to light of others in our community (and by community I mean EMTBravo, not the Dutchess area community). Maybe it needs to be looked at by people OUTSIDE of the direct involvement.

i.e. Will issues here, or ANYWHERE get resolved if the people involved are "investigating" incidents, or will it more than likely just be said to be acceptable, or pushed aside, or would a non-involved party be better off to be looking into incidents like this??

Maybe some fresh unbiased/uninvolved opinions is what SRS was looking for???

Edited October 31, 2007 by xfirefighter484x

[Ex-2114 7]

Let me just say that I have sat back and watched the fighting that has come about by this topic and I am extremely surprised. I have been on and off of this site for about a year and a half now and have seen how knowlegable everyone on this board is. I just cant believe that so many people have an issue with this topic. The only thing that tells me is that those who have a problem with this topic must be one of those people that do this tpe of thing. And as for you X134, I am not nor have I ever been a member of any of these departments. Nor do I care to be. I simply was asking a question to see if there was a reason why this was happening due to I live in the district in question and I was appalled that my life or neighbors lives could be put in danger because of petty squables. Which I know for a fact is the reason that this has occured and keeps occuring. You want me to go to the department, trust me I just may. As I also may just notify a local newspaper and the citizens of this community so everyone knows what is going on. I put it on this board to get answers so it would not escalate to a chance of it being brought to the local medias attention. I am sure that the parties involved love what they do and I really dont want to see them get "JAMMED UP" for what they are doing. If this were to be made puplic they could lose their posistion and maybe even be thrown out of the department. I have to much respect for what all of you do day in day out putting your lives on the line. And I am extremely greatful to know that you are there to help me and everyone else if I were to ever need emergency assitance. But I would just like to know that everything is being done appropriatly and that petty squables are not hindering the help I may need. So I do apologize for bringing this up and starting trouble with everyone but I just want to know that I am as safe as I can possibly be.

And know that I will not be taking this any further then this board, but it should not be forgotten. Hopefully in some way this will help prevent against further instances like this from happening again with these departments or any departments for that matter. Have a good night and thanks again for your time and I apologize for offending anyone, it was not my intention.

Is this forum exactly for questions and concerns like what SRS posted?? Seriously -- it is much better that it be posted here and not on pojonews.com or 7online.com, isn't it??

Why must a member of this forum be chastised for asking a legitimate question?? One that has the potential for being the difference between life and death??

What am I missing???

As an officer of any FD in the area, I would want to know these answers.

Maybe the commissioners and/or board are already aware of this problem. Maybe they are the ones who ordered the Chief of that department to do what he did. The functional word here is MAYBE.

It needs to be addresses - I will say it again: IT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIFE AND DEATH!! And not only the lives of the residents or 'customers' of the FD, but also the lives of your brother and sister fire fighters!! How close is that FAST team??

To all: stay safe and watch out for the Trick or Treaters tomorrow night.

[helicopper 1,050]

You are 100% right it is a free country. As I stated the Chief and commissioners of the departments involved should solve the problem. Not a member or X member that has a problem with the powers that be. Instead of stirring up trouble on a message board if this person is so concerned go to the fire department or town government and let them know about it and actually get the problem solved. Also maybe the chief has his own reasons for calling who he wants and its not what we think.

If the chief or commissioners are doing nothing to resolve a situation, any member (or any resident of the community) has the right (or duty depending on how you want to look at it) to bring it up for discussion and to seek solutions. If the chief and commissioners fail to act, the member or resident has the right to vote them out of office for not performing their duties to his/her satisfaction. We all do that on every November.

I don't see the original post as "stirring up trouble". The question was not antagonistic, did not name the agencies specifically, and was brought up for discussion on this board just like every other thread on this board.

Chief officers are not infallible, nor are they exempt from having their conduct reviewed and evaluated. I'm not suggesting that the original post did this - I'm just saying that we're all within our "rights" to do so.

Let's face it, there are a great many things in the emergency services of our region that could be improved upon - including the use of mutual aid. To ignore it and not try to stimulate discussion is not going to solve the problems.

Bring on the debate!!!

[Guest]

The common excuse of "we don't want to use all the resources in one area so we skip over towns" is BS. Strip all the resources you need from neighboring departments for a job. That's why the resources are there, to be used. Don't worry about not having those resources there for incidents that may or may not occur in the future, worry about the present situation and getting it under control with w/e resources you need. Then backfill those departments that need to be backfilled with relocators. Let the relocaters worry about any future incidents. Then if need be, you can call the relocators in if even more resources are need and then have someone else relocate again.

[Future Fireman 4]

The common excuse of "we don't want to use all the resources in one area so we skip over towns" is BS. Strip all the resources you need from neighboring departments for a job. That's why the resources are there, to be used. Don't worry about not having those resources there for incidents that may or may not occur in the future, worry about the present situation and getting it under control with w/e resources you need. Then backfill those departments that need to be backfilled with relocators. Let the relocaters worry about any future incidents. Then if need be, you can call the relocators in if even more resources are need and then have someone else relocate again.

Finally, a post that sums up the whole topic of replies in a nice paragraph!

Mike