IAFF Proposed Anti-Volunteering Bill

[Guest]

I don't believe the issue here is who has the perfect system rather does a union have the right to tell it's members what they can or can not do on thier off duty time?

This hits the nail on the head.

nycemt728 said his squad has lost members that went career and never came back, and thats fine... everyone has their own personal choices to make in their lives.

What is a shame is when a career firefighter is told he can no longer volunteer in the volunteer house he came from, when he still wants to be a part of that place. The company I belong to has in the past enjoyed incredibly good training, and tips and points that come our way when career members train with us. We benefitted immensely from this pool of knowledge, that the career members were very happy to share with us.

And let me tell ya, it is a good feeling going to a structure fire alongside a guy who has crawled down more darkened hallways in the last month than many self-anointed "gurus" have in the past year....

[NYMedic37 22]

bullcrap!!!!! Even though my goal is to be a CAREER FF, I probably will begin as a Vollie and i don't care feces about the IAFF if this is where they're heading.

Mike

Good luck getting a FF job now. You've got 2 strikes against you..........Ignorant remarks against the IAFF and you're a Red Sox fan. Not the sharpest pencil in the box!

[Future Fireman 4]

Good luck getting a FF job now. You've got 2 strikes against you..........Ignorant remarks against the IAFF and you're a Red Sox fan. Not the sharpest pencil in the box!

I never said i was looking for a job in NY. I'm going for one in New England! (aside from CT, since some of them are by the NYC area)

Mike

[firecapt32 282]

I know ther are a lot of law enfrocement in here---how manny of you volunteer as cops?? not the same?? why not?? if i had free police protection my taxes would be down---

that alone shouldl shut this topic off

[Remember585 815]

I have more to throw in later, but for now I will say this.

I don't see why this thread is called "IAFF proposed Anti-Volunteering Bill." Seems like it isn't true so why keep it up like this?

[Monty 35]

I know ther are a lot of law enfrocement in here---how manny of you volunteer as cops?? not the same?? why not?? if i had free police protection my taxes would be down---

that alone shouldl shut this topic off

Maybe around the tri-state area that's true, but even in NY there are plenty of communities that have Fire Departments and no local Police Departments. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if in some places in this country there's a paid FD and no local PD.

Additionally, around here they utilize volunteers in the PD as well (NYPD and WCPD that I know of).

[pjreilly 6]

How about this. If you want to volunteer, DON't apply to be paid. If you can't follow a simple by law of the union that is "supposed to be" protecting you, then stay a volunteer.

[Guest]

How about this.

I know several career firefighters who volunteered in towns they did not work in before their union told them they could not volunteer anymore. I know they volunteered because they have a love for the fire service, and enjoyed volunteering.. giving back to their community, and giving back to the department they came from.

What's your answer to those guys?

Or, how about this.

If you want to be a paid firefighter, DON't have a side job in which you are doing work that could be done by union tradesmen. Carpentry, plumbing, electrical.....

[sr71 1]

How about this.

I know several career firefighters who volunteered in towns they did not work in before their union told them they could not volunteer anymore. I know they volunteered because they have a love for the fire service, and enjoyed volunteering.. giving back to their community, and giving back to the department they came from.

What's your answer to those guys?

Or, how about this.

If you want to be a paid firefighter, DON't have a side job in which you are doing work that could be done by union tradesmen. Carpentry, plumbing, electrical.....

some of the best training i have ever participated in was taught by career firemen who are members of volunteer departments in my area. and they were active and ranking members of these departments. I think its wrong that the union is doing this.

[Remember585 815]

First of all, I really think this is going to turn into a pissing match soon. I am SHOCKED it is still allowed.

With that said...

The IAFF, as others have said, is a union that is there to lookout for it's members and it's future existence. Nothing different then the Teamsters, CSEA, CWA, PBA, etc.

For them to shut down the volunteer fire service would be as difficult, if not more so, then if the Local 3 tried to stop every non-union shop from doing electrical work.

For anyone to feel offended is naive, if you are a career FF and volunteer in your free time power to you and THANK YOU. The concerns of your health and well-being are legitimate concerns and I have seen first hand how quickly your insurance will turn your back on you if they can avoid paying for your problems if they can prove it happened "elsewhere."

Let's face it, paid or volunteer not all of the "benefits" we are told that are there for us if we need them are there. Hometown Heroes Act ring a bell?! LODD benefits held up over red tape? The bottom line here is that there is no guarantee our loved ones will receive all of the things we are told are there God forbid we are hurt or killed. The concerns of your health and well-being are legitimate concerns and I have seen first hand how quickly your insurance will turn your back on you if they can avoid paying for your problems if they can prove it happened "elsewhere." It's a real shame, in my eyes, that all of the organizations "looking out for us" volunteers, the IAFF and all others created to represent us can't work together and see to it that our loved ones, as well as us, can rest a little easier knowing the risks we take don't go ignored.

[EXDC203 38]

I dont see the IAFF telling its members that they cant own their non-union contracting buisnesses. What if they get hurt doing a non union plumming job????

[16fire5 693]

Please stop the nonsense here. The bill has nothing to do with volunteers. It is not anti volunteer. It is about helping the brothers in right to work states. I checked the NVFC and FASNY sites they don't even mention anything about this bill. If it was so dangerous to volunteers I think they would be all over it. The guy who wrote the article has his own motives.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

I am gonna give me fast reply here, hopefully some of you will read it, even though I will probably piss off both "SIDES" and I feel I am entitled cause I am so far the only one here to admit to being on both sides, Career and Volunteer.

First off right off the bat, My union can NOT tell me what to do in my off time.

Second, I do look down on my town for not having a career department, only because they can afford to pay for an oversized police force, numerous parks and gardens, but not my FIRE or EMS Safety.

I agreed with someone's statement about guys working "B" jobs taking away trades from potential union workers, to me that is more of a scab then someone volunteering to protect their own home and family.

Yeah I will probably here remarks from some of you who wear the IAFF logo on every piece of clothing you own, but the amount of free training I have received from volunteering has made me feel safer and even that much of a better trained firefighter. I have been to numerous conventions and training classes that my job does not have the money to send me too.

Also bottom line, like it or hate it, if my house is on fire the dept that is here is coming like it or not, why not assist and use my acquired knowledge to improve a dept. that protects my family and friends. You don't $hit where you eat.

As far as my career, I love my union local, w.o them I would not have health insurance, dental, vacation, OT, and a nice retirement. You would be a fool to not enjoy the benefits of a union, I volunteer to help my union as needed being that is an organization I am a part off as well as the other place..

So I guess all in all like em or hate em, volunteers will always be a part of suburban communities, career vs volunteers will always exist. Just enjoy life and be safe.

[Capejake72 8]

well this is going to make life difficult, as i plan on joining the union once im certified (state forestry firefighter) and plan on joining a local department to volunteer to keep the experience up until i can get on somewhere career

[Guest alsfirefighter]

LOL. Don't we all think this has gone about far enough? Some of your arguments and "points" are way off base, childish and lack any merit whatsoever.

Things happen for various reasons and whether anyone likes it or not the union is there to protect me and my brothers and sisters, even when they for some reason may not want to protect themselves. Its no different then when for all of the best intentions someone wants to serve as a firefighter and their hear and mind is there but their body or other medical conditions are not and they are not given clearance as an interior firefighter. Sometimes you just need to protect people and departments when they may not be able to do it themselves.

Yes I do volunteer where I live (an all volunteer department) and that is my personal choice. If there was something that came up that banned me from doing so, I would turn in my gear and give my thanks to those whom still serve my community. I know what pays the bills and feeds my kids. I would even go to perhaps just assist them with training if that is all I could do. If they hired any career staff from 1 person to a 100 if they chose, I'd turn in my gear.

On a final note...for those of you whose only argument is brining up side jobs, get over it. I heard a very wise man who was both a career and volunteer firefighter tell one of his union reps in the field he owned a business in for years even prior to his fire service career...when your union members stop doing my job...then I'll come back to this union. That argument is pointless when it can go both ways.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I know ther are a lot of law enfrocement in here---how manny of you volunteer as cops?? not the same?? why not?? if i had free police protection my taxes would be down---

that alone shouldl shut this topic off

Yeah Right I am going to VOLUNTEER MY TIME TO BE A POLICE OFFICER. But there is AUXILLARY P.O's. I could never understand that. More for crowd control and traffic but people still do it for FREE.

I guess I just sit in my OVERPRICED POLICE DEPT and LISTEN TO ALL THE VOLUNTEER CALLS. I BET THAT EACH PAID FF DEPT IN WESTCHESTER MAKES MORE MONEY THAN I DO A YEAR. Other than MT VERMON. TO SIT IN A FIREHOUSE AND LIFT WEIGHTS AND EAT GREAT MEALS AND WATCH TV WHAT A GREAT LIFE. Oh some of you might even go out to EARN YOU MONEY SOMETIMES.

Back to the issue at hand.

[16fire5 693]

I know ther are a lot of law enfrocement in here---how manny of you volunteer as cops?? not the same?? why not?? if i had free police protection my taxes would be down---

that alone shouldl shut this topic off

Yeah Right I am going to VOLUNTEER MY TIME TO BE A POLICE OFFICER. But there is AUXILLARY P.O's. I could never understand that. More for crowd control and traffic but people still do it for FREE.

I guess I just sit in my OVERPRICED POLICE DEPT and LISTEN TO ALL THE VOLUNTEER CALLS. I BET THAT EACH PAID FF DEPT IN WESTCHESTER MAKES MORE MONEY THAN I DO A YEAR. Other than MT VERMON. TO SIT IN A FIREHOUSE AND LIFT WEIGHTS AND EAT GREAT MEALS AND WATCH TV WHAT A GREAT LIFE. Oh some of you might even go out to EARN YOU MONEY SOMETIMES.

Back to the issue at hand.

That post should go and so should the poster.

[Guest]

The guy who sponsored the House of Representatives resolution that is the companion of this Senate bill is Dale Kildee, D-Michigan (Saginaw). He has been introducing this bill every session since at least 2001, so this bill is nothing new. Saginaw, Michigan is a semi-rural area with some automotive-industry-related manufacturing. There was only one other sponsor of the 2007 version of the Public Safety Employer-Employee Cooperation Act: John Duncan, D-TN (Knoxville/Oak Ridge). Representative Duncan's district is in the Great Smoky Mountains and the district's major employers are the Tennessee Valley Authority (Federal electric utility from the New Deal days) and Oak Ridge laboratory (Federal nuclear research). The 2005 version had 49 sponsors of the House version; it says a lot about a bill if no one wants to put their name on it as a sponsor--from 49 to two is a massive drop in Washington circles. I wonder how many communities in these two Representative's districts have career fire/EMS, let alone municipal police departments, not the county sheriff? Why wasn't the bill passed/signed into law the previous three times it was introduced?

The Senate 2007 version of the bill has three Presidential candidates (among others) as sponsors --Clinton, Dodd, and Obama. Not one of the three Presidential candidates sponsored the Senate 2005 version of the bill introduced by Senator Gregg, New Hampshire. If it was a good bill two years ago, surely the three Senators would have added their names to it....

It's not just about union/non-union, career/volunteer--it's also about election year politics. Just food for thought....

[x134 46]

I know ther are a lot of law enfrocement in here---how manny of you volunteer as cops?? not the same?? why not?? if i had free police protection my taxes would be down---

that alone shouldl shut this topic off

Yeah Right I am going to VOLUNTEER MY TIME TO BE A POLICE OFFICER. But there is AUXILLARY P.O's. I could never understand that. More for crowd control and traffic but people still do it for FREE.

I guess I just sit in my OVERPRICED POLICE DEPT and LISTEN TO ALL THE VOLUNTEER CALLS. I BET THAT EACH PAID FF DEPT IN WESTCHESTER MAKES MORE MONEY THAN I DO A YEAR. Other than MT VERMON. TO SIT IN A FIREHOUSE AND LIFT WEIGHTS AND EAT GREAT MEALS AND WATCH TV WHAT A GREAT LIFE. Oh some of you might even go out to EARN YOU MONEY SOMETIMES.

Back to the issue at hand.

You had the same opportunity to take the fire test as everyone else. Don't be mad you took the Police test. As a police officer you have some pretty good perks too. Don't hate us because u aint us.

[Remember585 815]

Please stop the nonsense here. The bill has nothing to do with volunteers. It is not anti volunteer. It is about helping the brothers in right to work states. I checked the NVFC and FASNY sites they don't even mention anything about this bill. If it was so dangerous to volunteers I think they would be all over it. The guy who wrote the article has his own motives.

THANK YOU!

Can we PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD before it gets dumber?!

[Guest]

Wow, glad we don't have these problems down under, sheesh. I do both, in fact a large number do both, some area's have changed over to fulltime stations and all the vols have been stood down, thats just the way it is, we have a genourous compensation program, and both services come under the same banner in this regard, so it works out alright. What I don't agree with is having a career and vol station in the same town and doing both.

[jcoppola 52]

I am so sick and tired of reading this volunteer vs. paid garbage on this site. It should be deleted, locked out, or whatever it takes to stop this freaking nonsense! Why doesn't anyone else realize that no matter how powerful, stong or member-heavy a volly company is, nobody is losing any paid jobs...take Danbury, Connecticut for an example, they have a ton of vollies in the city yet they still managed to add a entirely new engine company (E-26), new station quarters and full compliment of manpower (per thier contract) to their strength. I'll admit, I got cought up in one of these arguements here in the past, but I definitely learned my lesson then.

Again, nothing any of you say or do is going to take away the opportunity for a career fire job in Fairfield or Westchester counties, or any county in the tri-state area for that matter. While I argued in the past that career and paid cannot get along in a combination house (and got some heat for that one too...) neither of us are going anywhere any time soon!

Just weighin' in...

JC

[OLDGUY19 6]

On the career vs volunteer topic both sides don't play well in the sand box. Just close this topic.And move on to thing that can help us all Just My 2.5 cents

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

You had the same opportunity to take the fire test as everyone else. Don't be mad you took the Police test. As a police officer you have some pretty good perks too. Don't hate us because u aint us.

I know what test I took and I have no regrets. I happen to have alot of PROFESSIONAL FF friends. We bust each others chops. I have GREAT PERKS are you KIDDING ME and I don't hate because I am not a FF.

How come when it is a topic about VOLUNTEER VERSUIS PAID LE gets thrown into the TOPIC?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

ONEEYE....I don't take offense to what you said...how can I just because I COULD PASS THE MATH SECTION OF THE TEST! lol. Its all in good fun...and lets not kid ourselves bro...prior to the fire gig I've licked a few windows during the midnight tour and you know it too. Not to mention some of the other LE fringe benefits we both know of that others probably don't.

Oh yeah and PS: You make more money then I do and I'm not in the Vern! lol.

LE gets thrown into the topic because there is no way that such training discrepencies and difference could occur in LE that occurs in the fire service. I also just think LE is an easy way for people to try to discuss it in a more PE way then just flat out saying...how would anyone else like it if someone came into their job...did it for free, acted often like they are owed something and in many cases not have the same qualifications, certification or testing process but are put in charge of them. This is a very delicate discussion so it can get a little nuts. It is one worth discussing, but before you know it...if your not on one side you can be labeled "anti-volunteer" and that can start a whole ridiculous bashing and character attack. Are some of my colleagues out there "anti-volunteer"...of course. Some are just outright and there are others that just get burnt and turn that way. Then there are others that are pro-service and take pride and tradition out of the equation and what should just be right.

I am in a system that is outdated and feelings are often bred to keep the paid vs. volunteer argument and fires burning. Its a shame that it is often made that way when everyone could be a hell of a team. I was told when I got hired..."don't forget where you came from." I guess I should have answered "don't you either."