IAFF Proposed Anti-Volunteering Bill

[ldrco195 17]

Editorial from the Pueblo (CO) Chieftain - October 6, 2007

Quote:

Congress may turn up heat on volunteer firemen

By JAMES SHERK

THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION

You probably haven’t heard that Congress is about to shut down many of America’s volunteer fire departments. A little-known bill advancing through Congress would do just that.

Nearly 26,000 volunteer fire departments protect tens of millions of Americans and their homes from fires. Almost three out of every four firefighters in the United States are volunteers, and smaller towns and cities call on them for protection.

These volunteer departments are usually anchored by a core of professional career firefighters. Often they work in another city and volunteer to protect their neighbors in their off-duty hours. Volunteer firefighters risk their lives and sacrifice their time for their communities. Who would want to shut them down?

The International Association of Fire Fighters (IAFF), that’s who. The IAFF represents career firefighters. Volunteers who give their time and efforts to their communities allow many communities to do without full-time career fire departments. This means fewer jobs for career firefighters, and fewer dues-paying members in the union that represents them. So the IAFF does everything in its power to stop ‘‘two-hatters’’ from volunteering.

The IAFF constitution prohibits its members from belonging to a volunteer fire department. In the words of IAFF President Harold Schaitberger, the decision to volunteer is a personal choice, but ‘‘that personal choice is one that can have serious consequences under our Constitution.’’ Union members who disobey face steep union fines that the courts will enforce. In some cities, the IAFF negotiates, on its members’ behalf, contracts stating that they will lose their job if they volunteer in their off-duty hours.

The union’s effort to ban volunteering is an assault on our civic fabric. Doctors who provide free care to the poor, lawyers who work pro bono for the disadvantaged, and firefighters who volunteer for their communities make America a better country.

Without career firefighters willing to give their time, many volunteer fire departments would have to close. Look at Connecticut. The IAFF negotiated ‘‘no-volunteering’’ clauses in the contracts of every major city there. Now many of the state’s volunteer fire departments are having difficulty finding enough volunteers to protect their communities. Some cities have had to raise taxes significantly to hire career firefighters - exactly what the IAFF intended.

Enter the Public Safety Employer-Employee Cooperation Act, which would make it significantly easier for the IAFF to shut down volunteer fire departments. The bill, which passed the House and is before the Senate, has nothing to do with employer-employee cooperation. This bill requires every state and local government to collectively bargain with their police officers and firefighters, and to negotiate virtually every term and condition of employment. Those states that have decided collective bargaining doesn’t meet their needs would have to do so anyway.

If this bill passes and forces every local government to collectively bargain with its firefighters, the IAFF’s membership rolls will swell and the union will have enhanced powers to negotiate away the freedom of its members to volunteer. Many career firefighters who want to serve their community will lose the ability to do so, unless they want to lose their jobs.

Recognizing that concerns for volunteer firefighters could sink the bill, its supporters added a provision specifying that private sector collective bargaining agreements cannot prevent workers from volunteering. Since virtually every firefighter works for the government and not in the private sector, this actually does nothing to protect volunteer firefighters. But it sounds good.

Instead of adding meaningless provisions that do nothing to defend firefighters’ right to volunteer, Congress should let local communities decide if collective bargaining is right for them. Many communities have decided that it is. But others have not. Congress should not make it easier for the IAFF to punish firefighters for volunteering to protect their neighbors.

Text of the legislation @ http://www.iaff.org/politics/PDF/S2123.pdf

[Future Fireman 4]

bullcrap!!!!! Even though my goal is to be a CAREER FF, I probably will begin as a Vollie and i don't care feces about the IAFF if this is where they're heading.

Mike

[nycemt728 49]

W/e the reason, the end result is it does away w/ and or severely discourages volunteerism. That alone is disgusting...dont care what religion your from, what your beliefs, your upbringing, voluteering is a great, great thing, shame on anyone who says its bad or tries to do away with it....FOR ANY REASON.

[Goose 188]

I honestly think people need to take the time to read through the 17 page bill. You will notice that there is no provision for the federal government to shut down, absolve or absorb volunteer fire departments. I really think people need to quit the inflammatory language, read the bill and have an intelligent and informed discussion.

[Guest]

I think that goose is right, remember you DO NOT have to belong to a union, however being involved with a union is benefecial to ones career and pay, because if you do not belong to said union, you do not get the pay raises that people in the union get. But as goose says no where in that article does it say shut down. remember this is the media they do not always report the truth.

[ex-commish 490]

bullcrap!!!!! Even though my goal is to be a CAREER FF, I probably will begin as a Vollie and i don't care feces about the IAFF if this is where they're heading.

Mike

I will assume your youth is the reason behind your statement. To say you want to be a career firefighter and not care about the IAFF is contradictory. Unions are designed to protect the worker and today protection is always needed. I am not a member of the IAFF and at times I disagree with them but they are doing what any union is supposed to do and that is to look out for the interests of thier membership...if the didn't why bother existing. Before we get emotional on this lets see where this goes. This bill has to be passed and quite franlky I don't see it happening due to the govt's emphasis on volunteering and asking citizens to get involved.

I hope this does not become another paid-volunteer issue. Let cool heads prevail.

[x134 46]

bullcrap!!!!! Even though my goal is to be a CAREER FF, I probably will begin as a Vollie and i don't care feces about the IAFF if this is where they're heading.

Mike

Assuming when and if you get the job. Then, when your contract gets renegotiated and the city you work for tries to take things away I.E. benefits, time off, no pay raise. Then you will care what way the IAFF is headed.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I will assume your youth is the reason behind your statement. To say you want to be a career firefighter and not care about the IAFF is contradictory. Unions are designed to protect the worker and today protection is always needed. I am not a member of the IAFF and at times I disagree with them but they are doing what any union is supposed to do and that is to look out for the interests of thier membership...if the didn't why bother existing. Before we get emotional on this lets see where this goes. This bill has to be passed and quite franlky I don't see it happening due to the govt's emphasis on volunteering and asking citizens to get involved.

I hope this does not become another paid-volunteer issue. Let cool heads prevail.

You are a member of a UNION being involved in LE aren't you? Who in PROFESSIONAL FF is not in the IAFF? I would have to say that any NEW FF is stupid if the first thing they don't do is JOIN THE IAFF. Just like any UNION it helps with CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS and it also helps if you get into LEGAL TROUBLE by providing a LAWYER for you. I am sure there are other reasons but those are the two that I can come up with.

Do you really think that CONGRESS would pass something that did away with VOLUNTEERS? Not a chance. Look at all the votes that they would be losing in their DISTRICTS. They are not going to risk that. Plus how are they going to fill in the areas that are covered by VOLUNTEERS NOW? They certainly aren't going to make them all paid and they aren't going to make a bigger area for the PAID SERVICES now to cover. So I wouldn't worry about a thing.

Are there any FF jobs out there that say that being PAID forbids you from VOLUNTEERING? If they do and you get caught VOLUNTEERING what happens?

[x134 46]

You are a member of a UNION being involved in LE aren't you? Who in PROFESSIONAL FF is not in the IAFF? I would have to say that any NEW FF is stupid if the first thing they don't do is JOIN THE IAFF. Just like any UNION it helps with CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS and it also helps if you get into LEGAL TROUBLE by providing a LAWYER for you. I am sure there are other reasons but those are the two that I can come up with.

Do you really think that CONGRESS would pass something that did away with VOLUNTEERS? Not a chance. Look at all the votes that they would be losing in their DISTRICTS. They are not going to risk that. Plus how are they going to fill in the areas that are covered by VOLUNTEERS NOW? They certainly aren't going to make them all paid and they aren't going to make a bigger area for the PAID SERVICES now to cover. So I wouldn't worry about a thing.

Are there any FF jobs out there that say that being PAID forbids you from VOLUNTEERING? If they do and you get caught VOLUNTEERING what happens?

It's kind of a "don't ask, don't tell" thing. A lot of people do it and I don't know of anyone getting in trouble or losing thier job over it. I have heard that if you volunteer in a neighboring town of where you work you can not respond with that company in which you volunteer.

[LTNRFD 266]

I think that goose is right, remember you DO NOT have to belong to a union, however being involved with a union is benefecial to ones career and pay, because if you do not belong to said union, you do not get the pay raises that people in the union get. But as goose says no where in that article does it say shut down. remember this is the media they do not always report the truth.

Thats right you DO NOT have to belong to the union, However:

You still get all the pay raises and all the benefits that are negotiated from the fire dist., town or city that you work for, weather or not you belong to the local/union. The employer is going to have 1 agreed upon contract. They don't care if you are in the union or not. What gets negotiated is that the "Union" will be the only bargaining unit. If you are not a member of that unit you do not have a say in its business dealings.

Also, you may not be entitled to go to the annual firefighters ball or the picnic. You will still get your dental and eye glass benefits.

One thing that the local will do for you is deduct union dues from you even if you choose not to join the union. This is allowed because of the above. They still negotiate for you and you benefit from their time and expense in the negotiations.

[FFD941 20]

How about reading Section 8. paragraph 6

[Grumpy 1]

Editorial from the Pueblo (CO) Chieftain - October 6, 2007

Text of the legislation @ http://www.iaff.org/politics/PDF/S2123.pdf

The article in question here was not written by the media. It was written by a Fellow of the Heritage Foundation, a Conservative Think Tank with an anti union, pro Big Business agenda. They are backed by all the big corporations in the USA and many from other countries. Mr. Shenk, the author of the article is using fear tactics to stir the pot! Don't believe everything he says. One untruth he states as fact is that all 26,000 Vol. Fire Depts. are anchored by a core of Career FFs. when they're off duty. What a heap of BS! Sure, some FDs have a lot, some a few, off duty career guys, but I feel I'm right in saying that a majority have none! Don't sweat it Vollies. You'll be around for a long time.

[CTFF 65]

Are there any FF jobs out there that say that being PAID forbids you from VOLUNTEERING? If they do and you get caught VOLUNTEERING what happens?

I had to give my career dept a copy of my resignation letter to my vol co. This was not a big deal as I was a vol in a combo dept.

The problem with being a paid guy and a vol is when a job related injury occurs. I'm not talking a broken bone but a heart issue or blood pressure ect. The city you work for is going to fight you tooth and nail that your injury it is a result of your volley firefighting, the town you volley for is going to say it is due to you being a paid guy. Guess who gets screwed?

If I am not mistaken the purpose of this bill is to allow career firefighters to collectively bargain for contracts in "right-to-work" states.

[Guest]

Are there any FF jobs out there that say that being PAID forbids you from VOLUNTEERING? If they do and you get caught VOLUNTEERING what happens?

It's kind of a "don't ask, don't tell" thing. A lot of people do it and I don't know of anyone getting in trouble or losing thier job over it. I have heard that if you volunteer in a neighboring town of where you work you can not respond with that company in which you volunteer.

I do not have a problem with membership in a union, as another poster has said, a union is beneficial to a firefighter when it comes to looking out for that firefighters best interests, in areas of collective bargaining.

I do, however, have a problem with an organization that has in its CONSTITUTION, articles that prohibit it's members from volunteering if they want to do so.

Now, I know for instance in a combination department, when a career member comes back to his own combination department for calls he gets paid. And, this is as it should be. But, when that person is told he cannot do anything at that department, even non firefighting activities, to me that is an infringement on freedom and civil liberties.

And, when a volunteer who happens to be a career firefighter in another municipality is told he cannot be a volunteer anymore, well thats just plain wrong in my book.

Just my $0.02

[Guest]

Enough. Where is the EMT Bravo censorship now? Remove this topic. It is not constructive.

[CTFF 65]

Enough. Where is the EMT Bravo censorship now? Remove this topic. It is not constructive.

The topic may have shifted yet it is constructive.

There have been many incorrect statements made in this topic. By simply remvoing it some people may think these statements are facts.

I learned a about the author and the heritage foundation from this topic.

[Guest EFFP411]

I do hope that this doesn't sneak through, because some places do rely on career guys that donate their time to the local FD. I understand that it might be an insurance fiasco, or what have you, but it still stinks.... :angry:

[Monty 35]

How much truth there is to it, I don't know, but this morning reading Firehouse there's an article about volunteering.

It states:

In Rockland County ... all companies remain strictly volunteer. To a large extent, ranks are filled by off-duty members of area career departments and by firefighting families who have carried out the tradition for generations.

Now, this wasn't the main thrust of the article - it was about appreciating volunteers and improving retension. I thought it was a well written article and intend to leave a photocopy or two posted at the firehouse!

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

The bill will not state :"and do away with volunteer departments" it's the collateral damage CAUSED by the BILL.

[firecapt32 282]

CTTT--The IAFF is telling their memebers in a indirect way--if you are hurt doing volunteer assigements- you might not be protercted in your Career department. Thats the short term--long term if you come down with any lung or resp problems/ or cancers the same might apply.

What should happen is employers of career firefighters should tell their employees--no volunteer firefighting. but they wont do that. Soo they leave it up to the IAFF .

There arre many examples that can occur so dont take "it cant happen to me approach"

Theh IAFF has no authority to disaband any Volunteeer organization.

[mstrang1 213]

I think this bill is more about having states like, I believe, north carolina for example, that do NOT ALLOW UNIONS IN THE STATE. South Carolina also. I remember there being a big deal about the guys in Charleston not being IAFF members and the IAFF wanted to help in the memorials and stuff.

[TCD0415 26]

The problem with being a paid guy and a vol is when a job related injury occurs. I'm not talking a broken bone but a heart issue or blood pressure ect. The city you work for is going to fight you tooth and nail that your injury it is a result of your volley firefighting, the town you volley for is going to say it is due to you being a paid guy. Guess who gets screwed?

CTTT--The IAFF is telling their memebers in a indirect way--if you are hurt doing volunteer assigements- you might not be protercted in your Career department. Thats the short term--long term if you come down with any lung or resp problems/ or cancers the same might apply.

"If you are hurt doing Volunteer Assignments" If that is their (The Union's) take (Being injured off the job) shouldn't it state that you shouldn't be allowed to do ANY work off the job then? I know a lot of union guys that work side jobs, most everyone actually, and being a roofer or carpenter, you could fall off a ladder doing a side job and get hurt. How is that different ?

[pjreilly 6]

"If you are hurt doing Volunteer Assignments" If that is their (The Union's) take (Being injured off the job) shouldn't it state that you shouldn't be allowed to do ANY work off the job then? I know a lot of union guys that work side jobs, most everyone actually, and being a roofer or carpenter, you could fall off a ladder doing a side job and get hurt. How is that different ?

You can also be hit by a bus crossing the street. Should we stop walking in public? PLEASE. It has nothing to do with the "VOLUNTEER SYSTEM", that everyone says is so great. It is the professional fire fighters union telling their membership not to volunteer. Plain and simple. When you become a career guy, its time to withdraw from active service in your volunteer company. You can be a social member and be involved in the company. And if the "VOLUNTEER SYSTEM" is so great, why cant they attract and retain volunteers? Because it is not like it was 20 or 30 years ago, when most local guys could leave their jobs to go on calls. The world is going corporate, and thats where the money is, and thats what everyone is chasing. When you get less than 1 volunteer per call on average, it is time to rethink your fire protection plan. When the volunteer chiefs ADMIT, that the volunteers can't respond to the call volume, It is time to rethink your fire protection. Time to close up the club house, and get serious about public safety, which is what fire fighting is all about, not parades and picnics.

[Guest]

wow, this is one hell of a way to add more tension b/w vollies and paid guys.

unions are great for their members.

but to erase the ideals behind how our country was formed is the biggest load of bull...

[DOC22 1]

In a "prefect" world, all firefighters would be paid. But in this world, where taxes are rediculous now, can someone please tell me where the funding for a full career department in small town America? People are moving away to find places they can afford to live, and this tri county area sure as hell ain't one of them!!!!!!!!!!

[nycemt728 49]

PJReilly,

So no one who's carreer should volly??? Look, the volly world isn't perfect, but I can guess carreer isn't perfect either. I can tell you that my squad has lost several members to the career sector, none, despite lots of promises ever returned....they were good vollies, we couldn't retain them any more then we could a non career person. Volunteerism has always been about the personal choice to do somthing to help others. No union or dept should make that personal choice for someone....quite frankly until the entire US is paid career (and I doubt it ever will be) vollies are necessary and integral and I pray that no one who is supportive of measuse that will prevent that from being an option has to depend on a volly when they or their loved ones are in need. Perhaps the IAAF needs to talk to insurance companies to work out better coverage for vollies or talk about better training so people don't get hurt in the first place...

[ex-commish 490]

You can also be hit by a bus crossing the street. Should we stop walking in public? PLEASE. It has nothing to do with the "VOLUNTEER SYSTEM", that everyone says is so great. It is the professional fire fighters union telling their membership not to volunteer. Plain and simple. When you become a career guy, its time to withdraw from active service in your volunteer company. You can be a social member and be involved in the company. And if the "VOLUNTEER SYSTEM" is so great, why cant they attract and retain volunteers? Because it is not like it was 20 or 30 years ago, when most local guys could leave their jobs to go on calls. The world is going corporate, and thats where the money is, and thats what everyone is chasing. When you get less than 1 volunteer per call on average, it is time to rethink your fire protection plan. When the volunteer chiefs ADMIT, that the volunteers can't respond to the call volume, It is time to rethink your fire protection. Time to close up the club house, and get serious about public safety, which is what fire fighting is all about, not parades and picnics.

I don't believe the issue here is who has the perfect system rather does a union have the right to tell it's members what they can or can not do on thier off duty time? And I agree this world is going corporate so ALL unions better focus on what is most important to us and that is the healthcare system.

And who said the volunteer system is so great?

[Guest]

Man, there is so much I would love to say.....but this thread is right on pace for a short life.

Started out nice, somewhat

[Future Fireman 4]

I will assume your youth is the reason behind your statement. To say you want to be a career firefighter and not care about the IAFF is contradictory. Unions are designed to protect the worker and today protection is always needed. I am not a member of the IAFF and at times I disagree with them but they are doing what any union is supposed to do and that is to look out for the interests of thier membership...if the didn't why bother existing. Before we get emotional on this lets see where this goes. This bill has to be passed and quite franlky I don't see it happening due to the govt's emphasis on volunteering and asking citizens to get involved.

I hope this does not become another paid-volunteer issue. Let cool heads prevail.

Assuming when and if you get the job. Then, when your contract gets renegotiated and the city you work for tries to take things away I.E. benefits, time off, no pay raise. Then you will care what way the IAFF is headed.

Thats right you DO NOT have to belong to the union, However:

You still get all the pay raises and all the benefits that are negotiated from the fire dist., town or city that you work for, weather or not you belong to the local/union. The employer is going to have 1 agreed upon contract. They don't care if you are in the union or not. What gets negotiated is that the "Union" will be the only bargaining unit. If you are not a member of that unit you do not have a say in its business dealings.

Also, you may not be entitled to go to the annual firefighters ball or the picnic. You will still get your dental and eye glass benefits.

One thing that the local will do for you is deduct union dues from you even if you choose not to join the union. This is allowed because of the above. They still negotiate for you and you benefit from their time and expense in the negotiations.

Sorry people, my emotions got the better of me. Now back to the logically minded me.

As for this thread being not constructive, I am in agreement with that and I'm hoping EMTBravo will lock this thread down before the conflict escalates.

Mike

[16fire5 693]

This thread is so off topic its funny but that was the intention of that right wing nut who wrote that article. This bill really has NOTHING to do with off duty guys volunteering and shutting down volunteer departments. It has EVERYTHING to do with forcing the employeer of cops and firefighters to sit at the table with the unions representing the brave men and women who do those jobs.

We are very spoiled in the north east when it comes to labor and unions. That is not the case everywhere in this country and that is the point of this bill. In most parts of the south the municipalities refuse to even recognize the union and won't even sit at the table with them to negotiate safety issuse let alone salaries. In those states dues can't be deducted from pay checks and unions have little legal standing. Any IAFF members if you bother to read the paper (now magazine) you get in the mail should know this has been a priority of the international for years. The magazine is constantly full of tales from these states where union officials are fired and have to fight to get their jobs back for standing up for the health and safety of membership. Here in the north east we have it great we have union shops and binding arbitration.

Please brothers don't be hoodwinked by the man who wrote that article he cares very little if any for us. Its those like him that oppose any standard or law that attempts to make the dangerous job we do safer. This law is good and will help our brothers in the south make their work place safer by forcing the employer to recognize the union and meet with them. Thats all they don't even gain binding arbitration out of the law so even with the passage of this law they will still have a long way to go to achieve the thing we have here in NY.