Can Women be Good Firefightes?

[Guest]

no need to post comments, just check out the news 12 westchester to vote on their poll

http://news12.com/WC

once on the site, scroll down and the poll is on the right side of the page

Edited October 5, 2007 by vacguy

[bigfitz2004 19]

Yonkers F.D. commish apologizes for fiery comment

(10/05/07) YONKERS - Yonkers Fire Commissioner Tony Pagano is apologizing for some fiery comments he made in front of new recruits, including the first female firefighter in the department’s history.

While speaking to a class of newly hired firefighters, Pagano admits he used a common term for the male anatomy when talking about the courage it takes to do the job. Some people agree that Pagano's comment was inappropriate because he leads a department of 400 firefighters, which now includes one woman.

After five years of trying to get hired, Lianne Navedo finally joined Yonkers’ bravest in September. However, it took a court order to end the 100-year tradition of the Yonkers Fire Department being all male.

Navedo accepted the commissioner's apology and just wants to put the whole matter behind her. Pagano confirms there is a complaint on file with the Yonkers Human Resources Department, which is investigating. The commissioner says he will accept whatever the consequences might be.

This is how come news 12 have that poll

[Guest]

normally they have a report that the poll is based on, but when i saw the poll this a.m., there wasn't an article/report..

[ex-commish 490]

This is how come news 12 have that poll

While I would agree a city official should be careful what he/she says especially with all the politically correct police lurking around I don't believe his comments were directed to the female probie and it is a waste of time and taxpayer money to have this investigated. He has apoligized numerous times and that should be enough but unfortunately today sorry isn't enough anymore.

We have firefighters, cops, correction officers, emt and medics as well as our troops dying and being injured everyday yet a big deal is being made out of a comment used all the time...even by women.

It is rare I agree with Mr. Pagano but I agree it does take.....well you know

Edited October 6, 2007 by HFD219

[Guest partyrock]

Thats why I use huevos. Then I'm always right. While the preservation of an individuals rights and freedom from discrimination and harassment are important the PC culture has gotten way out of hand. Now words can be taken out of context and used against you and it needs to stop.

[Guest]

I'm almost afraid to comment on this cause I'm expecting a lash from people, but oh well. I've heard this question so many times in my life, and the answer has nothing to do with discrimination or sexual harrassment, it has to do with the common knowledge that woman are not built the same way as men! Note that I did not say that they belong in kitchens, but just use common sense for 3 seconds and throw away all the liberal garbage. I dont care how fit this woman claims to be, when she dons that airpack with the gear and tools and possibly carrying bodies around, she'll see that running a marathon or lifting 20 pound dumbbells is a whole different league. I recall reading an article about her awhile back where it said that she is already close to 40 years old, and only weights, what? 110 pounds? Again, its not sexist to say that a woman generally cant perform the same duties as a man, just like there are many things that men do not do as well as women. Physically, I do not feel that they can meet the challenges of the job. The academy only does so much, but as I'm sure you can agree, training and the real deal are 2 separate beasts. I feel that not only will she endanger herself, but she will endanger the lives of her coworkers. My daughter, a fit young volleyball and softball player can barely pick me up, and I'm an old fragile toothpick now, ha! Sure, there are always exceptions, but I find that its usually not these exceptions that apply for the job...its the people who want to "prove something" and get the title. God bless her for having the heart, but this is something that I know deep down in alot our minds we think about. I apologize if this offends anyone, but thats my two cents, and again, its not discrimination, its not sexism, its common sense. I beleive the only organization out there who realizes this is the military where they dont allow females to join infantry units. Maybe the reasoning is different, I dont know...things have changed since my service time. As for Mr. Paganos comment...I dont feel it was at all something big enough to cause investigation. Sure, he has a sucky way of lookin at things sometimes, and he knows how to create enemies, but all he did was use common language in an organization that hears much worse....excuse him for forgetting that there was ONE woman in the crowd. Now everyone will have to walk on eggshells to avoid a lawsuit...

[Guest partyrock]

LPFire, I agree with the majority of what you say, and in that line the lessening of standards to allow more women into the ranks has demeaned the accomplishments of the ones that are there for the job and do it right. The same applies to any group that requires the job to weaken to meet their needs. Establish a minimum standard for ALL employees and then there will be no argument as to who can do the job and who is there for headlines. I've met women who are perfectly capable ff's and more than a few men who shouldn't be anywhere near the fire floor. It goes both ways.

[Guest]

Partyrock, you're right that it goes both ways. I cant begin to tell you how many men I've seen on the job, especially today, who just dont belong there. But I find that the difference between them and the women are that they these specific men can still do the job. Their attitudes and character might sunk beyond beleif, but they still have the physical efforts to do the job.

Women plain and simple just usually cant. Sure, there are exceptions again, but this woman doesnt appear to be one of them. I'll try to bite my tongue and wait to hear from the guys in her house, but thats my prediction for now. The job is soo mcuh different than training. I dont care how many laps she runs, how much better she did on the test, yada yada...the fact remains that when she straps on the gear, the pack, grabs the tools and THEN goes to work, can she do it? Time will tell...her physique does inspire much confidence. Keep the academy progress reports, I'll wait to see when she makes her first grab.

I apologize for ranting on this, but again, this is something I feel is a big problem faced by FD's and PD's. I know its a very touchy issue that people are actually afraid to comment on, and rightfully so. And again, sorry to offend anyone. This isnt a matter race, religion or color, because in those cases, its never right!!! This is a "battle of the sexes". Women trying to prove something. Women stepping over the boundaries cause they know that all they have to do is cry, "Sexual Harrassment!!!".

I mean, big me a break! The man said, "balls"!!!!!! Whats to complain about? Whats discriminating about that? Whats offensive about that? Are we suppose to edit human slang now because its offensive?

I guess in the end, I feel that these sorts of politics will destroy the job. The brave men of the YFD will now have to deal with a whole new bag of goodies with this one....watch what you say, watch what you watch, watch what you think, watch what you read, watch what you look at, watch what you listen to, and watch what gestures you make....cause the slightest one will winde you to court!!!

Good luck to ALL the probies.

[irishfire2491 24]

I BELIEVE WOMEN CAN BE GREAT FIREFIGHTERS JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELES AS LONG AS THEY GO TO CLASS AND LEARN LIKE EVERYONE NO ONE CAN BE DIFFENENT THE KNOWLEDGE IS OUT THERE AND IF WOMEN WANT TO TAKE ON THE KNOWLEDGE AND LEARN AND DO THE WORK LIKE MEN MORE POWER TO THEM BECAUSE THERE ARE MEN OUT THERE WHO WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH FIREFIGHTING!!!

[Guest]

110 pounds is what you're basing this on? There was a kid in my school who weighed a 110 pounds and was able to carry a 250-300 pound professor up four flights of stairs non-stop.

Are women built differently? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be given the same opportunities as men. If they can't meet the standards then they they shouldn't be allowed in, but if they do then I have no problem. Most of the women I know are in better shape than I am and could kick my butt.

Also, many militaries allow women to serve without restrictions, notably the Israeli military. My friend is a Sergeant in the Israeli military and I can assure you that she could do the job of any firefighter and then some.

We have the same problem in Engineering (I'm currently a senior in an Engineering school). There are very few women in my school (although a lot compared to other schools), and the mediocre and poor performing women stand out more than the mediocre and poor performing men, but it seems there is roughly the same distribution of abilities between the male and female populations (I know we're talking mental abilities versus physical, but the analogy is still valid). I have no problem with the qualified women in my school, many of whom are far smarter than I am. I have no problem with the qualified men in my school.

For me it's simple: can you do the job and meet the qualifications? This woman obviously met the qualifications, and she is probably a better firefighter than I am (I am a crappy FF). Can she do the job? Only time will tell, but don't predict her failure before she's even been given the chance.

As far as the controversy over what the commissioner said, well it must have been a slow news day. I don't really think it was that offensive or that it was used to be offensive.

[Guest partyrock]

I guess in the end, I feel that these sorts of politics will destroy the job. The brave men of the YFD will now have to deal with a whole new bag of goodies with this one....watch what you say, watch what you watch, watch what you think, watch what you read, watch what you look at, watch what you listen to, and watch what gestures you make....cause the slightest one will winde you to court!!!

Good luck to ALL the probies.

That is the biggest issue in my book. The change of the firehouse culture. It use to be that the probie had to fit in. Each house had its own character and every house was different. Some people call it a frat house mentality. Its a brotherhood that develops out of living and working so closely together. In the firehouse you could act like you did when you were at home with the guys. I think everyone can appreciate that they act one way when they are out with their friends and another when you are in the corporate environment. Since we live together, work becomes a second home and we expect it feel like our home. With this inclusion we are being forced to act like we are working in the corporate world. Any woman who has grown up in house full of men would expect nothing less than your typical firehouse and I think its wrong to expect that to change. You want the job, there are certain things that come with it...daily threats to your life, hard work, little money, and the firehouse in all its faults and glory.

Irishfire, please go easy on the caps. While knowledge is irreplaceable it is not an effective replacement for sheer brute force. Eventually poo happens and if I go down I want to know that the person standing next to me or coming to get me can drag me down that hallway and throw me down the stairs. If a woman can deal with the firehouse environment and can do the job at the same level as anyone else I don't know anyone that would object to working alongside a woman. Our problem is when we have to relax our standards or change our home to make it easier for someone to join us when there are plenty of other perfectly capable people out there looking to do the job.

"As far as the controversy over what the commissioner said, well it must have been a slow news day. I don't really think it was that offensive or that it was used to be offensive."

Sorry Jared, but these days slow news day or not there will be an internal investigation that were he not a commissioner could have serious repercussions.

Also, 110 lbs of your average male vs 110 lbs of your average female and you are going to see the female lose. There's this great chemical called testosterone. Its the hormone that makes men masculine and results in stronger muscles, bigger lungs, bigger livers, more aggression, etc. This doesn't mean women can't do the job it just means they are at a physical disadvantage. This is why men and women are not created equal. We are each better suited to different tasks.

Edited October 6, 2007 by partyrock

[Guest]

Partyrock, I couldnt agree with you more!

Irishfire...knowledge is only a bit of it...its gut and physicality as well. I never said a woman couldnt read a book, I simply was implying that they will have a much more difficult time performing the tasks. Give yourself some more time in the fire service and you'll understand.

And just like partyrock said, 110 pound woman Vs. 110 pound man is completely differnent. I dont care what sports you play or how many bench presses you've done. Lifting a limp human body in hazardous conditions with all your gear is a lil different than throwing your under armour on lifting weights. So you proved our point with that statement... enough said.

Partyrock, I think thats what I was getting at for awhile and just had some difficulty coming out to say it. The job is so much more than just the "work" aspect. The firehouse is our second home. We sleep, eat and commune in it as we do in our homes...usually more openly, especially in the paid houses where you are with these guys for 12-24 + hour shifts nonstop! Now, the firehouse culture is slowly going to diminish along with the standards. We're not talking about taking away a woman's rights here, so dont be so dramatic and turn this into a discrimination case. We're talking about a job that some men cant even do becuase of the rigors. In my days, when I did see a woman perform well, it was usually cause she was assisted by at least one other person each time! Now the firehouses have to stoop down to the corporate levels. No more talks about your girlfreinds or wives or that date you had last night. Make sure you take down all your posters of woman from your locker, and be sure to replace that Sport Illustrated Bikini addition calendar immediately! Make sure your uniform is properly attired and dont walk around with your shirt half way unbuttoned, and don't strip down to your skivvies before you throw you bunker pants on on those hot days. All these common things which are almost "ritual" in a firehouse go out the window in fear of offending the wrong peson. Whether you want to admit, I'm sure most of you understand the changes that will have to take place. Everyone make sure you have a pleasant Columbus Day weekend!

[Guest]

What Pagano said (In these Politically Correct Times) isn't the cleanest way he could have made that statement. I commend him for stepping up to the plate and publicly apologizing for that. HOWEVER, it does take "juevos" to do this job. Dedication, courage and strength also can be added in the mix. It's so unfortunate that there are people out there who take such statements figuratively. To those prissy footed folk, GROW UP!!!! I hate to say it, but change doesn't happen overnight. In this case, this female firefighter has a long ways to go to prove herself. She also should have taken a reality check and realized she is now in a career that is dominated by males. She should ease up a bit and understand that she will encounter a few unintentional Freudian slips of the tongue amongst her coworkers. After all, we are only men. I wish this woman luck, and may she succeed through the academy and become the firefighter she's always wanted to be (for however long she's been dreaming). May she exceed everyone's expectations, despite the fact it took a lawsuit for her to get in. And if not, oh well, no one's perfect. We suck it up and move on.

Edited October 6, 2007 by REDOKTBR

[Remember585 815]

One simple word in my eyes answers this question. Yes.

In my Engine Company we presently have four active females. The other 45 or so Actives are men. Bottom line, I would rather be working with some of the women then some of the men. I know others in my house agree.

I will agree that women are USUALLY built differently then men, it's scientific proof. But I can look at my Department Roster and tell you some of the guys don't put in nearly a fraction of the time these women do, and because I train with them and work with them all the time, I trust my life in their hands more so then some of my "brothers."

I am POSITIVE what I am saying will undoubtedly hit a nerve with guys in my FD and I am fine with that - the truth is in the numbers. Hours of training, hours at drills, hours at calls, number of calls, etc. I don't care two dookies what gender my nozzle or backup person is - as long as they can do it.

And I rarely like the words spoken by Pagano, but he is right. It takes BALLS to do the job - not the physical ones dangling between the legs, but the mental ones to push on everyday, every call.

[irishfire2491 24]

[quote name='partyrock' date='Oct 6 2007, 04:26 PM' post='107066'

Irishfire, please go easy on the caps. While knowledge is irreplaceable it is not an effective replacement for sheer brute force. Eventually poo happens and if I go down I want to know that the person standing next to me or coming to get me can drag me down that hallway and throw me down the stairs. If a woman can deal with the firehouse environment and can do the job at the same level as anyone else I don't know anyone that would object to working alongside a woman. Our problem is when we have to relax our standards or change our home to make it easier for someone to join us when there are plenty of other perfectly capable people out there looking to do the job.

Not knocking your opions but last time I looked Firefighter 1 had both mental and physical parts to the class. I have done training where a female drag my FAT (I WILL BE GOOD) BODY out of a building. I know alot of Female Firefighter that have the Physical Attitude as MEN if not BETTER then some male firefighters. My theory if they can do it dont knock them!!!

[DOC22 1]

I was never big into all this Politically correct stuff nor, for that matter, into the women's lib either, but, as has been previously stated, and I will back those posters up here. If a female can pass the tests, and all associated training, the more power to her! If they have the guts to try for it GREAT!!! Anyone can be anything they want to be or do anything they want to do if they have the courage and perserverence to "GO FOR IT!"

[Guest partyrock]

This thread has quickly become no fun. Everyone agrees that so long as she can do the job and live with a bunch if guys a woman would have no problem assimilating into the life. Yet for some reason the politicos had to make everything harder and force under qualified candidates down our throats. Their actions have severely damaged the image of women in the fire service. Them and those who have come to this job to make headlines, but thats for another time. In the end, no matter who you are get your head in the books, your arse in the gym, and train like you actually give a damn.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Maybe they should be asking how many guys should not be on the job. We all know a few there!

[JCESU 20]

no need to post comments, just check out the news 12 westchester to vote on their poll

I would say it's pretty divided at 43%/57% and I would like to hear comments from people that perform the job of a fire fighter (especially paid). It should be a very interesting topic.

[ckroll 101]

[quote name='partyrock' date='Oct 6 2007, 04:26 PM' post='107066'

While knowledge is irreplaceable it is not an effective replacement for sheer brute force.

Neither is brute force a substitute for thought and ingenuity. It is the rare exception when the fire service or the public benefits from either 'brute' or 'force'. Firefighting... and the myriad of other tasks firefighters are called on to do... requires strength and agility, thoughtfully applied. A good firefighter gets the job done, goes home at the end of the call. Great ones make it look graceful, effortless, doing as little damage as possible and having the people we serve appreciative of the job we do.

I'm a 51 year old woman who weighs 125 lbs. No, I can't advance charged deuce and a half up a flight of stairs. In my small town I haven't needed to either. I can cut a car with the best of my beefy brethren; I'm better than many at bucking up trees because I keep my chainsaw sharp and know better than to fight physics. We don't go bare handed. We have chains saws, and jaws and cutters and an entire truck worth of leverage and mechanical advantage and duct tape. If the job calls for someone who can work tight spaces, any department is well served having someone who can access a 7" space and work in a 12" one. Our department has 10,000 acres of state park. For searches and brush fires, it is the small and the quick.. and the fit... that do the best work.

What irks me to no end is the inherent laziness of 'testosterone is the only thing that matters' point of view. It is the nature of being human to see value in who we are. It is the bigotry of small minds to think that one person is better than another based only on how he is born. A remarkable number of people I have met who feel that the balls make the man, use it as an excuse... to not think, to not stay in shape, to not train. Having nuts, a 48" waistline, and staggering 4 letter vocabulary doesn't make a person a firefighter. I don't even think it helps.

Dedication, willingness to train, to stay fit, the ability to learn new things, and the strength to apply them, the wisdom to know when to beat the door in and when to turn the knob, courage, compassion, love of the profession, wanting to be the best and to do the best each and every call... those things make a firefighter.

It's what's in your heart and your head -- not your scrotum-- that matters, boys.

[MoFire390 118]

irish and remember I agree with you both women can be great firefighters. i had the chance to work with some yesterday at a live training excersize at DCFTC, and let me tell you they have intentions as all of us males, to save people!!! if there are departments that are preaching tradition its time for tradtion to change!!

P.S.- Great drill yesterday remember we need to do it again sometime!!!

[VAEMC 10]

irish and remember I agree with you both women can be great firefighters. i had the chance to work with some yesterday at a live training excersize at DCFTC, and let me tell you they have intentions as all of us males, to save people!!! if there are departments that are preaching tradition its time for tradtion to change!!

P.S.- Great drill yesterday remember we need to do it again sometime!!!

Hey, I think they were in the fire longer then you were! If women can serve in the US Military to defend this great nation then they can handle fightingfire.

[irishfire2491 24]

Hey, I think they were in the fire longer then you were! If women can serve in the US Military to defend this great nation then they can handle fightingfire.

WOW mofire 390 your own LT is evening blowing you up. SAD!!!!! And I completely agree with you VAEMC. I will admitt there are women FF that are Better then me and I have seen it in Training classes and I have learned from their skills.

[Fireman488 57]

LPFire, I agree with the majority of what you say, and in that line the lessening of standards to allow more women into the ranks has demeaned the accomplishments of the ones that are there for the job and do it right. The same applies to any group that requires the job to weaken to meet their needs. Establish a minimum standard for ALL employees and then there will be no argument as to who can do the job and who is there for headlines. I've met women who are perfectly capable ff's and more than a few men who shouldn't be anywhere near the fire floor. It goes both ways.

You are absolutely right, Partyrock.

One standard for ALL.

The same is true on the Police Job.

I worked with some women who were really good cops, and some men who shouldn't have been on the job.

Stay safe,

Fireman488

[Guest partyrock]

ckroll, you are absolutely right, it is a complete package and the guys who run around flexing their muscles to demonstrate their fire fighting superiority are just as the women who claim that since they have the knowledge and the desire they should have the job. It is a combination of both. The guy that is going to go head long into fully involved balloon frame or light weight truss structure is just as useless as the woman that can't get a victim down the hall or the line into position. Here's the catch; I can teach stupid, but I can't out train genetics. Thats why physical ability takes precedent over mental capacity. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you can do the job then get on board. After you get on board if you love the job and want to get "balls" deep into it, I want you next to me when I'm making that push. It When it comes down to it no matter who you are, as a probie you have to prove yourself to the senior members. NO matter who you are, if you can do the job and do the job well I want you working with me. Just don't expect special dispensation just because of who you are.

[firecapt32 282]

Party --- you maybe be able to teach stupid but as a friend of mine is in the habit of saying"you cant fix stupid" man or woman.

Its a job if woman can handle it, do the things that have to be done,then welcome to the brotherhood

[firemoose827 324]

Im not biased or sexist or racist...If you can do the job then do it. I have seen quite a few male firefighters who couldnt lift a 300 lb victim either, but we dont drum them out of the dept. I have seen muscle bound idiots grab that same 300 lb victim and toss them around like a rag doll; yet tell them to run the friction loss numbers for 2 1/2" hose through a 200' stretch at 80 psi to figure out if an adjustable fog nozzle is getting the required gpm's to function normally?????? This is a TEAM job people, and we should ALL be working together regardless of race, color, creed, national origin or SEX. Theres more to firefighting than humping hose or dragging victims out a second story window onto a portable ladder...There are other jobs that need to be done that are AS IMPORTANT on a fire/emergency scene that never get the credit they deserve. Quite frankly, if a lot of these "behind the scenes" jobs are not done at fire scenes than the glory seekers cant be photographed dragging their unconcious victims out the window.

We need to think and act more as a team...not individuals pitted against each other in the battle of the sexes. Most of us are too busy worried about training, equipment, and the people we serve to be worried about what sex or color the person next to us are.

It doesnt matter WHO is next to me, as long as they STAY next to me.