New York Medical College killing Dogs

[Guest]

Dear friend of PCRM,

Thank you for contacting New York Medical College Dean Ralph A. O’Connell and Associate Chairman Gabor Kaley, urging them to immediately end the practice of using live dogs as a teaching tool. Your help is greatly appreciated.

Your message has been sent to the following decision makers:

Dr. Ralph O'Connell

Dr. Gabor Kaley

Thanks again for your help.

Sincerely,

Ryan Merkley

Research Program Coordinator

Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine

5100 Wisconsin Ave., N.W., Ste. 400

Washington, DC 20016 Phone: 202-686-2210

E-mail: info@pcrm.org

THIS IS A LETTER FROM Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine

Click for link here

What is really going on?

New York Medical College is ONE of ELEVEN medical colleges that still use the pratice of using dogs to show medical students how the vegal nerve operates. the vagal nerve is (according to webster dictionary)...Main Entry: va·gus nerve

Pronunciation: 'vA-g&s-

Function: noun

Etymology: New Latin vagus nervus, literally, wandering nerve

: either of the 10th pair of cranial nerves that arise from the medulla and supply chiefly the viscera especially with autonomic sensory and motor fibers -- called also vagus

the school cuts the nerve in front of the students, thus making the canine go into a-fib and eventually the dog dies in front of the students. this pratice is NOT to find research for canines and NOT to find research for humans, it's simply a teaching method to show students how the vagus nerve operates.

a personal note...i find this disgusting and disturbing, and literally lost sleep a few nights ago knowing this is happening on the Valhalla campus. if you feel this is disgusting, disturbing or simlpy an inappropriate teaching method, PLEASE go to the link above and tell the Deans how you feel about it, it also has some more information.

Thanks!

Edited September 30, 2007 by RWC130

[antiquefirelt 994]

While I agree and generally would rather see a deserving humna die in place of most dogs,, can we find more info on the dogs? While this may seem fairly barbaric as a lesson, if these are dogs being euthanized for other medical reasons, than I find that whatever can be gleaned may have value. If the dogs are bought, brought or raised for this purpose than I find it repulsive. I have a long list of humans I could recommend to take the place of the canines.

[Guest]

While I agree and generally would rather see a deserving humna die in place of most dogs,, can we find more info on the dogs? While this may seem fairly barbaric as a lesson, if these are dogs being euthanized for other medical reasons, than I find that whatever can be gleaned may have value. If the dogs are bought, brought or raised for this purpose than I find it repulsive. I have a long list of humans I could recommend to take the place of the canines.

there is very minimal literature about this from NYMC (as you would assume), but i did hear the animals ARE from pounds and MAY have been be euthanized. a pound that does euthanization is one thing, but to take advantage of a disadvantaged DOMESTIC animal is disturbing. to take advantage of any living being is harsh, especially when its an we as humans can view as family members...im sure you dog owners can understand.

being euthanized is socially considered "humane," but cutting the vagus nerve to set a dog into a-fib than into cardiac arrest in front of a class room is just screwed up.

[CAM502 6]

This is a sick procedure. How can they get away with that?

[Guest CRASH]

truly an outrage can we get al sharptons help on this asap

[Guest]

i don't know how they get away w/ it, but i'd like to know myself.

as far as al sharpton...unless the dogs can pull the "race card," i don't think he'll be much help! lol

[stephen morea 1]

can we do this to the nerd with the needle. seriously the rule for this practice should be that if some wanabe medical practicioner wants to do this to a harmless dog he should get it first to see how it feels, see how it works, wink wink. whats this poor world coming to. sick wirdos, now I know why I beat up all the nerds in my high school.

[RWC130 594]

WHAT???!!!

Does the ASPCA know of this?

If so, Anything being done?

Is this practice legal?

I think this issue needs IMMEDIATE attention!

New York Medical College

Administration Bldg.

40 Sunshine Cottage Rd.

Valhalla, NY 10595

Karl P. Adler, M.D.

President and CEO

karl_adler@nymc.edu

Waldemar A.Comas, J.D.

Vice President and General Counsel

Institutional Compliance Officer

waldemar_comas@nymc.edu

Robert W. Amler, M.D.

Dean, School of Public Health

robert_amler@nymc.edu

Francis L. Belloni, Ph.D.

Dean, Graduate School of Basic Medical Sciences

francis_belloni@nymc.edu

Ralph A. O’Connell, M.D.

Provost and Dean, School of Medicine

ralph_oconnell@nymc.edu

[ex-commish 490]

What I find amazing is Michael Vick stands under indictment for his role in animal cruelty yet this barbaric practice of murdering dogs is allowed to happen.

When they find the mope that abused the 3 year old girl in Nevada I will nominate him to be the next "animal" to be the subject of thier experiment. Any second to this???

[Guest alsfirefighter]

While I do not generally agree with this type of practice there is a couple of things I need to point out about some of your comments.

Michael Vick has no place in this argument/discussion. That was dog fighting, which is brutal and viscious and dogs are often killed outright if they do not fight well. As someone pointed out, if they are not buying the dogs and are taking them prior to being euthanised at a facility, they are performing the euthansia themselves and with the dog under anesthesia. I doubt those in the dog fighting business use anesthesia nor do they even bring severely wounded dogs to medical care, they are shot, electricuted, hung or even left to die with their wounds.

The ASPCA cannot say anything if it is considered for medical research or education.

Keep beating up nerds now, they are the ones with the future.

Perhaps if people were more responsible with dogs and other animals for that matter, then this couldn't even be an issue.

[Ex-2114 7]

Not for nothing, but......

A vast majority of LIFE SAVING medical procedures that are around today are due to testing on dogs, monkeys, rats, and pigs... Heck - the Blue Baby Syndrome was cured based on experimentation on dogs!!

Here's what I don't get -- everyone wants to be saved using the most up to date medical procedures but nobody is willing to accept that the creation of these procedures needs to be tested and tested and tested over and over again until it's 100% flawless. Nobody is willing to be a test subject for these new procedures, but everybody wants it to save or recover their own lives.

Did you know that most of the nerve regeneration procedures that are around today are the result of animal testing??? Riiiiight.

Now mind you... while I was an active FF in Elmsford, we had an animal testing facility in town and it was all the outrage to find out that it was there. "Not in my back yard" and I was all for getting rid of them. I was young and uninformed back then.

We can't expect to have all of these incredible life saving advances in medicine without being able to test them. I work for a medical simumation company now and the virtual reality systems are truly amazing, but you can only simulate what is known. You can't tell that things will go bad if a few steps are combined without real world testing.

All I am saying is that you need to look past the nose on your face to see the bigger picture. The world is a lot larger and rounder than Christopher Columbus initially thought - now look at where we are today???

[Guest]

What I find amazing is Michael Vick stands under indictment for his role in animal cruelty yet this barbaric practice of murdering dogs is allowed to happen.

When they find the mope that abused the 3 year old girl in Nevada I will nominate him to be the next "animal" to be the subject of thier experiment. Any second to this???

i'll second it

[Guest]

alsfirefighter and Ex-2114...

...the information i have on this is minimal at this time (trust me i'm working on it!), but what the FACTS are is that this procedure is NOT done to better human NOR canine lives...its ONLY USED to show medical students how the vagus nerve operates and how the cardiac system does not function properly when it is severed...

MAKE A VIDEO of this and show to medical students... the next time its done (which there will be a next time)...video tape it...

think to mass produce it and show to medical students...

they don't need to see a dog die EVERYTIME this lecture is given!!!

i have friends who are med students who are DEEPLY DISTURBED by this lesson...

they plan to fight this internally, but they NEED external (the public's) help!!!

Edited September 30, 2007 by vacguy

[Guest]

WHAT???!!!

Does the ASPCA know of this?

If so, Anything being done?

Is this practice legal?

I think this issue needs IMMEDIATE attention!

New York Medical College

Administration Bldg.

40 Sunshine Cottage Rd.

Valhalla, NY 10595

Karl P. Adler, M.D.

President and CEO

karl_adler@nymc.edu

Waldemar A.Comas, J.D.

Vice President and General Counsel

Institutional Compliance Officer

waldemar_comas@nymc.edu

Robert W. Amler, M.D.

Dean, School of Public Health

robert_amler@nymc.edu

Francis L. Belloni, Ph.D.

Dean, Graduate School of Basic Medical Sciences

francis_belloni@nymc.edu

Ralph A. O’Connell, M.D.

Provost and Dean, School of Medicine

ralph_oconnell@nymc.edu

thanks for the names, but there's only ONE dean who does this brutal lesson...

i forgot his name and email, but when i go to work on monday i will get that info and post it and hope some people on this forum will send him some emails

althought the procedure is only done by one dean in particular, you should all know that it is still NYMC that allows this to happen...so not please don't get too personal w/ him!! lol

...emailing his and telling him he's a "Brutal, disgraceful piece of crap who should be tortured like he does the dogs" is not nice!

Edited September 30, 2007 by vacguy

[ny10570 745]

I love dogs, had one for 16 years and miss her every day, but before we start writting e-mails and making phone calls have you written to your legislators about fund allocation for emergency services, medicaid reform, or any of the other dozens of issues I see bought up on this site. Who here has written a letter to one of our service men and women serving our country? If you've contacted all your representatives and written a soldier, why not spend some time back in the text books so you can rediscover some info you may have lost that might save your life or maybe learn something new. Its a dog. We brutally kill animals every day as a society but just because this one has such a fond connection to us we freak out every time one of them dies.

[Guest]

I love dogs, had one for 16 years and miss her every day, but before we start writting e-mails and making phone calls have you written to your legislators about fund allocation for emergency services, medicaid reform, or any of the other dozens of issues I see bought up on this site. Who here has written a letter to one of our service men and women serving our country? If you've contacted all your representatives and written a soldier, why not spend some time back in the text books so you can rediscover some info you may have lost that might save your life or maybe learn something new. Its a dog. We brutally kill animals every day as a society but just because this one has such a fond connection to us we freak out every time one of them dies.

your 100% right, there ARE more important things to do (and i do write to soldier friends of mine) but...

...you said " Its a dog. We brutally kill animals every day as a society but just because this one has such a fond connection to us we freak out every time one of them dies."

unfortunately, not ALL animals are deemed (by society) as domestic, and not all animals are deemed (by society) as "man's best friend."

some of you may see this as just animals, an thats fine...

but i see it as the present dog in my life, who is from a pound. and when i read some of the info, i invisioned my homeless dog, before i met him getting tortured by this person. the same dog that greets me every morning like its the last morning of his life.

bottom line it the fact that they are killing these DOMESTIC ANIMALS, whom could possible make a person or a family feel happy and complete, if they (just by chance) happen to accidentially come accross the mutt, just like i did.

i hate to discriminate, but dogs have the POTENTIAL to be friends and familly members. so in my eyes, its not just an animal.

[JetPhoto 626]

truly an outrage can we get AL Sharptons help on this asap

Only if it is a black lab and it is a white man doing the experiments...

[Guest pentax02839]

well it is not making medical advancements according what there doing it for .from the sounds of this is cruel

[Guest]

found out more info...

New York Medical College does this procedure only ONCE a year and uses (on average) 6 dogs each time it's done. this is done so all the students who want to view the procedure can. each class holds about a few dozen students.

NYMC has been in operation for 147 years. multiply that by 6 and you get an exact number of 882 dogs. since the number is an average, there could be more or less dogs killed.

[Goose 188]

There really are more important things at hand than a medical institution using animals for educational purposes. I'm sure every college that has a science program utilizes lab mice for testing purposes, high schools dissect cats, dogs, and various farm animal parts, I've even heard of paramedic courses having their candidates intubating cats to practice peds skills. Considering the enormity of things we face as a nation from national security to health care, i think the enthusiasm would be better placed elsewhere. As a side bar, i am an animal lover and owner of 11+ years.

Edited October 3, 2007 by Goose

[Guest]

don't get me wrong, im not a PETA freak or anything, im actually quite the opposite, im a hunter. but i only hunt what i eat (primarily turkey and pheasant). if this was a vet school, i would most probably have a lesser argument, but its not. its a school for human research and as i mentioned, its NOT meant for human nor canine research. its just a pointless thing.

even it they were disecting a rat or a pig, which is an animal man can study to better the greater human race, that would be ok.

even in high school i never disected the frog we once had...it served no purpose unless someone was going to fry up some frogs legs (which i hear are very good!).

[NYCOP 0]

I am curious as to why they can not video tape this. Then just show the video.

[JM15 386]

it is probabally a hands on experiment

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Funny enough, I'm not a hunter (those in the true animal kingdom that is) and I'm not a big fan of the use of certain animals in medical "studies" etc. However, I have dissected a cat, frog and pig. Why? They were requirements in school, particulary college. I thought about the video option some of you discussed, but as I can tell you that some of things I got to witness and perform when in college to become a medic couldn't be replaced then seeing it live. It is what it is. As long as the dog does not suffer and came from the means that the dog were to be euthanized regardless I have no problem with it. The dog has to be under anesthesia...it feels nothing. Nothing different then getting a needle and going into the ultimate deep sleep.

No offense to anyone but if you really that worried about it...get out there and adopt a dog and lobby and perform public ed on the perils of unwanted pets and lack of spading/neutering.

[ex-commish 490]

I still say it is cruel. I am a dog owner and just can't accept it. Also, my dog was "fixed" so I did my part in cutting down the amount of dogs being born.

She still look for her morning smooch from the dog behind us...

[Guest]

No offense to anyone but if you really that worried about it...get out there and adopt a dog and lobby and perform public ed on the perils of unwanted pets and lack of spading/neutering.

agree 100%. why pay thousands for a dog, when you can get a homeless dog for just a donation to the shelter.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

HFD...just to point out, that wasn't a direct reply to your post, it was a general reply in discussion. (to be honest there are quite of a few of you on here that need to read this statement in general also) Secondly, I respect your opinion that you don't find it acceptable. Actually for once there is an intelligent conversation going on without any personal BS or childish, ridiculous posts. Its nice to be able to actually have a debate about a topic and see it going so well.

I'm just as big of a dog/animal lover as the many of you...I just have a different opinion on the matter if things are the way I'd like to assume. I'm the proud parent of a Rat Terrier I've had for 12 years and a 3 year old Jack Russel Terrier. One of the worst days of my adult life was seeing my other Rat Terrier I had for 8 years lying in the road and carrying her home. Most of you know that I don't hunt because I cannot kill an animal that cannot defend itself. There is only one species of animal that can basically do this fairly...and those I have no quarms about hunting and killing if I still could.

[Guest]

HFD...just to point out, that wasn't a direct reply to your post, it was a general reply in discussion. (to be honest there are quite of a few of you on here that need to read this statement in general also) Secondly, I respect your opinion that you don't find it acceptable. Actually for once there is an intelligent conversation going on without any personal BS or childish, ridiculous posts. Its nice to be able to actually have a debate about a topic and see it going so well.

I'm just as big of a dog/animal lover as the many of you...I just have a different opinion on the matter if things are the way I'd like to assume. I'm the proud parent of a Rat Terrier I've had for 12 years and a 3 year old Jack Russel Terrier. One of the worst days of my adult life was seeing my other Rat Terrier I had for 8 years lying in the road and carrying her home. Most of you know that I don't hunt because I cannot kill an animal that cannot defend itself. There is only one species of animal that can basically do this fairly...and those I have no quarms about hunting and killing if I still could.

i'm very sorry to hear about your Rat Terrier, thats just terrible. and you're right, this is a civil forum (for once), becasuse of this maybe something can get done. ...you never know

[ex-commish 490]

HFD...just to point out, that wasn't a direct reply to your post, it was a general reply in discussion. (to be honest there are quite of a few of you on here that need to read this statement in general also) Secondly, I respect your opinion that you don't find it acceptable. Actually for once there is an intelligent conversation going on without any personal BS or childish, ridiculous posts. Its nice to be able to actually have a debate about a topic and see it going so well.

Als my comment was general also, not a direct reply either. I like the pic of your dogs. Sorry to hear of your other dog. Years ago I had to bring our sick dog who was dying to be put down...not easy.

[Doc 11]

I can see this grim process having some valid use. I hate to say it, but in some fields, there is no substitute for hands-on training. I'd rather the surgeons of the future have all the available opportunities to make their mistakes long before a human life is at stake. If fooling around with a dog's vagus nerve will make them better physicians, then I'll conceed it must be done. However, I 'd like proof that this is actually the case. How does the performance of physicians who have partaken in this particular class exercise compare to those that have not. Despite being a mush-ball for animals, I'm a scientist by trade and recognize that in some circumstances there simply is no substitute for a living test subject. But animals, even experimental subject animals should never be treated like equipment. There are basic ethical standards that must be adhered to and many professional and legal ceritifcations require it.

We had a guy in our department for a short time who worked at WMC and his job was to implant pacemakers into dogs. The dogs would be exercised, probed, tested and whatnot for some number of weeks or days to assess the performance of the pacemakers. After the test period, the dogs were euthanized and the pacemakers removed and examined. This ongoing study was simply to provide the statistical performance and failure rate of these devices. There was no "dry" bench test that could simulate in-vivo conditions. If I recall, they went through dozens of dogs a year. Again, it makes you a little heart-sick to think of that, and the guy who did it did show emotional stress from the process, but it's the only way right now.

Unfortunately, the human body is far to complex to accurately model on a computer or with a machine... and society still clings to the notion that certain criminal filth cannot be utilized for the betterment of science.

Oh, nice doggies!