FDNY helicopter

[grumpyff 1,159]

The UFA is alledging that Commissioner Scoppetta has refused to consider using helicopters to deploy a water cannon on high rise fires similar to ones used in Los Angeles and Tokyo. I saw the pice on Channel 7 news at 6pm tonight. It was originally propsed two years ago, and some feel that it could have prevented the deaths of two firefighters at the Deutsche Bank fire. I was just wondering what everyone else thinks about a system like this, pros/cons.

Here is the link to the article/video: 7Online FDNY helicopter?

Edited September 12, 2007 by grumpyff

[Guest]

The UFA is alledging that Commissioner Scoppetta has refused to consider using helicopters to deploy a water cannon on high rise fires similar to ones used in Los Angeles and Tokyo. I saw the pice on Channel 7 news at 6pm tonight. It was originally propsed two years ago, and some feel that it could have prevented the deaths of two firefighters at the Deutsche Bank fire. I was just wondering what everyone else thinks about a system like this, pros/cons.

Here is the link to the article/video: 7Online FDNY helicopter?

i always wondered about this with so many high rises why at least not try one on a trial bases and see how it turns out.

[Guest]

FDNY at High Rise fires already deploys a Batt Chief to the NYPD aviation unit as an air Chief for recon. As far as helicopters; usefulness on high rise fires for suppression.......think about... If the fire is that bad that the guys can't get it from the inside I doubt a very dangerous operation of a helicopter getting close and dealing with thermal columns rising from the burning structure would be able to even make a dent in the fire considering even Wildland helos can only carry 700 gallons of water. Helicopters are better deployed as recon which FDNY is already doing in conjuction with NYPD

[Oswegowind 17]

FDNY at High Rise fires already deploys a Batt Chief to the NYPD aviation unit as an air Chief for recon. As far as helicopters; usefulness on high rise fires for suppression.......think about... If the fire is that bad that the guys can't get it from the inside I doubt a very dangerous operation of a helicopter getting close and dealing with thermal columns rising from the burning structure would be able to even make a dent in the fire considering even Wildland helos can only carry 700 gallons of water. Helicopters are better deployed as recon which FDNY is already doing in conjuction with NYPD

I have to disagree, a chopper with a "water cannon and small tank may be able to slow the initial fire down from the window, giving the interior firefighters a chance to fully extinguish it. Of course, proper communication is a must so that no one is in the apt when the bird lets loose. As well, heat travels up, so if you approach from even or just below the fire, then the columns will have no effect on the bird...I am not familiar with the water cannon and it's distance vs. results but think it is at least worth a try. Sometimes, we never know we can do something, until we actually do it!

As well, I believe the FDNY deploys a Battalion Chief to NYPD aviation on all fires 3 alarms of better, not a high rise thing. JBE? You would have the most info on that.

MFY

[Guest]

Wildland helos can only carry 700 gallons of water

Not only that, can you imagine the structural impact on a building after its hit with hundreds of gallons of water at a certain altitude and speed? You'd probably have to worry about shattered glass/debris falling as a result. Also, helicopters used in firefighting missions can suffer engine failures as they ingest smoke/super heated gas's on their attack runs. Suffering an engine failure and subsequent autorotation into an urban jungle would probably end up devastating. The cons far outweigh the pro's....if there even are any pro's in this situation.

[bob803 1]

I wonder if having a helo for some type of knock down would just send debris to floors below. Creating a larger hazard.

[Guest partyrock]

How many buildings in Manhattan could a bird even get next to?? How effective is 1000 gallons of water from one of these water cannons? The reaction force alone I would assume make this system very inaccurate. There are so many other things to focus on. The only reason I'm for an FDNY helicopter is because there are a significant number of times where Aviation is unavailable. There is also a significant delay in getting the bird to Floyd Bennett and then to the scene. There are also plans in place for ladder companies to be airlifted to rooftops in certain scenarios, but all of these demands plus the daily operations of Aviation can severely tax a very limited resource. A FDNY helicopter would always be available to the dept.

[Guest]

First of all, I'd like to see this "water cannon". I lived in Southern California most of my life and still keep up with L A City and County. The 1,000 gal copters they are talking about are used by L.A. County fire and are used for brush fires. The only way they are going to put water on a hi-rise fire is by hovering over it and dropping on the roof, ala "The Towering Inferno". I think we all know how well that would work. I've never seen or heard anything about a water cannon, unless they are referring to the hose looking thing, wich is a snorkel for picking up water. Personally I'd love to see FDNY get thier own ships, 3 maybe? 1 recon and 2 bigger birds. But like most I also think as long as the NYPD arrangement is working out it likely won't happen.

[Mac8146 61]

This topic of FDNY Helicopter is not a new issue, just being revisited. Since the mid 1980's the FDNY had a plan to drop firefighters onto the roof of a high rise fire to perform searches rescues and so on. However they use NYPD helicopters to drop the firefighters onto the roofs after NYPD has secured roof area. Also as stated the NYPD Helicopters may not be available when needed. If you are familiar with FDNY books the procedures are outlined in an AUC. I did the drill way back in 1985 and the actual plan has never been put to use at an actual incident over 20 years later. Many large areas of brush in Staten Island, Queens, Brooklyn and The Bronx that a helicopter could be useful in a brush fire.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

They should try to set up some kind of FDNY Strategic Airlift Command, where they can pick up rigs and drop them off to emergency scenes to avoid dealing with traffic, I'm sure it could lower inter-borough response times during high-traffic hours.

[/sarcasm]

Seriously though, I could understand having 1 recon bird, maybe a USED ex-military one, but what tactical purpose could more than one helo serve? There wouldn't really be any reason to have an aviation unit that could do water rescues, as NYPD and USCG already have that covered, nor a need for medical airlifts, as there are so many hospitals in the city that it would probably be a longer drive to a suitable LZ than it would be to a suitable trauma center. I'm sorry, I just can't understand why they would need this so badly. A helicopter would be entirely too big to fly through city streets get close to any sort of incident, so the only real purpose is for recon IMHO.

[JM15 386]

They had a plan to airlift truck companies to the roof of hi-rises to do primary searches. Just one question that I had was if they were that far above the fire floor would the helo comeback and pick them up and any victims they found? How would they get out of the building. Just something I'm not clear about.

[JBE 328]

The high rise roof teams bring any victims to below. No roof extraction. We could use helicopters. But as far as suppression is concerned, brush fires only. I truly don't know of anything that could knockdown a fire from the outside of a building. That's really all I can say about it.