Aerial only vs. Quint

[Engfire 0]

Just was wondering how many of you guys opperate Aerial only trucks vs Quints and if you opperate a Quint what is its primary assignment in your alarm cards.

I know that on my depts cards the ladder is first due in its own district and first job it to park in-front of the structure and begin fire attack unless otherwise ordered by command.

[Guest]

Our first due Truck is an E-One Ladder Tower Quint. The quint definitely has its benefits, it can be a stand alone piece. But it also has the ability to have its water supply boosted or directly supplied by a pumper through a 4" Stortz gated connection in the rear. It carries 500 ft of 5 inch and about 300 ft of 3 inch plus has 1 3/4" crosslays both 200ft. It works great in the city area just as any Tower would...the biggest benefit though is if it's a tight driveway and a big house 3 stories plus or just expansive, we now have the reach of the aerial master stream and also the fact we have a pump in there, in addition to all the tools it carries. All in all I think Quints are great they are like the Swiss Army Knife of the Fire Service. They can do it all.

[jcoppola 52]

I have no problem with quints until they are used by career departments as manpower killers. Administrators may ask; why do I need an engine AND a truck both staffed when I can have one truck do the job of 2? The problem is, one apparatus cannot do all primary fireground tasks of stretching in and search, rescue or vent. If a truck is a ladder company, it should assume that posture at a fire. It doesn't really matter what they are riding to the fire. Norwalk uses ladder trucks equipped with pumps and water and a small compliment of hose. It works well for us, because all the shift commanders use them stricly as ladder companies and expect all the jobs to be done customary of a truck co. It is also an added bonus to be able to be fed from a hydrant and create your own pressure for ladder pipes. In my opinion, they work well for volunteer companies because they may be getting manpower coming in via their own vehicles and ALL the equipment that would be needed is there for them.

Norwalk is trying to get funding for a sixth station. We have 2 staffed trucks, both equipped with some engine stuff and 1 is a true "quint" that operates as a truck company exclusively. In the past we have heard master plans to staff the sixth station with the quint and leaving the Broad River firehouse with just an engine and only having 1 true ladder company in the city. This all ended when a consultant came in and said that our city needs a third staffed truck, an additional staffed engine and a fully manned rescue company. Our chief is even in favor of adding an engine to that 6th station instead of sending the quint there. From a union perspective, we would ONLY support new hires, not splitting up companies. We would win that arguement based on firefighter safety alone!

So, with quints, we just have to make sure they are used to our best benefit, NOT those who count the beans...

[Rimrockny24 0]

In my opinion quints give smaller departments a false sense of security. I see too many departments purchaseing these apparatus thinking they are getting two pieces of apparatus that they only have to staff with one crew. The problem with this though is that if the crew on the quint commits themselves to doing an interior attack entering on the "A" side of the structure and the aerial device is needed at the "D" side of the structure for a rescue the aerial is useless unless you back the interior crew out and breakdown the handline and then move the apparatus.

[IzzyEng4 427]

My volunteer department had five Class A engines. Our ladder company operates a 95 ft tower ladder with out a pump and also a class A engine. (each company has an engine)

The career department that I work for now has a quint tower ladder. We do mutual aid with the neighboring towns and many areas do not have hydrants and drafting is necessary. I'm new there so I'm on a big learning curve right now with the truck.

[antiquefirelt 994]

We operate a 93 MM tower no pump or tank...All Truck! We decided to stay with the straight truck concept based on how often we see quints misused. Used to just supply their own water towers makes sense, as it eliminates the need for another engine to boost the water pressure, but sticking attack hose on a truck messes up its capability.

For example: The quint is first due to a store front fire and on arrive has to stretch a line. Where ever that truck came to rest it's now anchored there. What if now a firefighter appears in distress on the side 4? Can't move the aerial as you've got attack lines inside.

Another downside in career depts. is the "jack of all trades, masters of none". We're quickly eroding away basic firefighting skills by doing more and more EMS, Confined Space, haz-mat, sexual harrassment and other training. It's hard to beat drilling on task specific tactics. Why are Boston firefighters so good at ladder ops. Becuase they do the same stuff every day, and like in a similar thread here, they throw the stick on almost every call real or false. Now take a St.Louis FD Quint company and see if they are as good at truck work? Not, likely, they're truly damn fine firefighters but they can't be as good at one thing becuase they're doing two.

And if you use your quint only like a ladder co. at least your crew will be better truckies!IMHO anyway. But look at the Houston debacle. Maybe Detriot too? First due quint operated as a truck co. and the first due engine was delayed resulting in no water on the fire and victims dying as the crew couldn't get to them. Big legal issue a few years back. I don't know that it's even resolved now, maybe an out of court settlement. Was on 60 Minutes or 20/20.

Lastly, a pump and tank takes a lot of space on a truck, requires a larger motor and upsized tranny. The latter two aren't a big deal if you are a dept. that over specs all this stuff a la Tim the Tool Man Taylor. Argh, Argh! Argh!

If it wasn't for the money and space we would have put a pump on our tower just for the water tower operation, but in the end, engines are plentiful in our area so it wasn't worth it.

[MoFire390 118]

My department runs a ladder tower w/ a pump. Here are the specs.:

2003 American La France LTI, 100' Platform

Pump - 2000 GPM Hale

Booster Tank - 300 Gallons

Generator - 20 KW Harrison

Seating - 6

If you want to see a pic heres the link: http://montrosefire.com/index-30.html

Edited September 13, 2007 by MoFire390

[Remember585 815]

We have a Peirce Rear-Mount Tower Ladder Quint. It has a 100' stick, 2000 gpm pump & 300 gallon tank. It's dispatched to all structural calls and it's primary role is that of a TRUCK. It has, at times, been at jobs where the aerial is useless and to road is too tight to fit another rig so we pulled lines off of it. One of our more recent fires it was first in, and while the first in Engine was laying up they made a knockdown with the tank water until the Engine fed them. The Engine crew took the lines in while the chauffer made the plug. Worked out good, I just don't want to see the Truck laying in everytime - it's not it's primary role.

[Guest]

We have a quint similar to 585's. Ours has a pump for several reasons. For 1, ISO requires us to establish and maintain a 6000gpm flow for fire attack for some of our commercial zones. For us, it was worth the investment because it is one of a few things that gives us a higher rating. We run (3) 2000 gpm pumpers and utilize the tower to satisfy the flow rate if one of the pumpers is out of service. Additionally, like most other vollie dept's, you never truly know what the response is going to be. In most all our residential areas, the setback from the street negates the ladder for rescue use, but it still gets the front of the building for easier access to the ground ladders. In almost all cases it operates solely as a truck company, unless the guys catch a car fire or something while they are on the road.

Some of the career depts in the area were running quints for a while but have gotten away from it. In most all cases a 55-65 foot aerial was given to engine companies. I believe that at the end of the service life of those vehicles, they went back to regular engines.

J, your first paragraph pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[antiquefirelt 994]

For 1, ISO requires us to establish and maintain a 6000gpm flow for fire attack for some of our commercial zones.

Are you certain of this? To my knowledge ISO will never hold the FD to a fire flow of greater than 3500 gpm. Generally, if the structure or complex has a higher fire flow than 3500 gpm it has it's own insurance rating and ISO is not applied when determining the fire insurance rates. ISO says that if your fire flow exceeds 3500 gpm , than you'll need 3 engine companies and the total pump capacity must be at least 3500 gpm between them, plus if the 3500 gpm flow is exceeded in 5 or more occupancies you'll full 100 ft. ladder on the response.

But you are right on that your quint's pump can be counted as a reserve pumper. Even though you already exceeded the needed flow with just two engines, the requirement for flows over 2500 gpm is three engines. A quint can be counted as a ladder and also a reserve engine, in most cases. Oddly enough raters vary greatly in what's allowed state to state or region to region. Another flaw of the ISO system.

[Guest]

Are you certain of this?

I will have to investigate. I am almost positive this was the case...