Sleepy Hollow EMTs at odds with police chief over stun-gun case

[SHAC7301 0]

For what it's worth, I spoke with the SHAC Captain and he assured me that they did not release any confidential patient information to the press. Patient information was released, as per SHAC and NYSDOH policy, to the mother of the patient (minor). All of the pertinent HIPPA paperwork was signed by the mother prior to the release of the PCR. The family of the patient has been in contact with the media.

I led this fine organization for many years (hence my screen name) prior to taking a command position with the FD and I must say that they are one of the most professional and dedicated volunteer organizations that I have ever had the privledge to work with.

Edited September 6, 2007 by SHAC7301

[Guest]

For what it's worth, I spoke with the SHAC Captain and he assured me that they did not release any confidential patient information to the press. Patient information was released, as per SHAC and NYSDOH policy, to the mother of the patient (minor). All of the pertinent HIPPA paperwork was signed by the mother prior to the release of the PCR. The family of the patient has been in contact with the media.

I led this fine organization for many years (hence my screen name) prior to taking a command position with the FD and I must say that they are one of the most professional and dedicated volunteer organizations that I have ever had the privledge to work with.

I am not sure what the exact circumstances are, but based on this post the agency should be careful. Just because a parent signs the HIPPA form does not by any means justify handing over a PCR. Protect yourselves and the agency, wait for a subpeona. Hypothetically, if a family is looking to jam up an agency, you do not want to make it easy.

[Guest]

HIPAA does state that the provider of the health info has 30 days to comply with the release. i would have held off like x710 mentioned. but nevertheless, it seems no wrong doing was done...i hope we all realize this.

Edited September 6, 2007 by vacguy

[helicopper 1,050]

Per NYS Penal Law, a 16 Y/O is an adult. As for NYS DOH he isn't, but he was not primarily a patient at that point in time, he was a prisoner. As such, as the police chief he was, in effect, this 16 y/o's 'guardian'. If SHPD's policy is not to transport all single shot Tazer prisoners, then so be it, this really isn't a big deal. The media, the perp and his parents are the ones that are making a non-issue an issue.

Well put 20Y2! This whole situation sounds like the absence of and adherence to written policies and procedures on how Tazed prisoners will be handled is the main issue. Nobody is "bashing" the VAC and the criticisms of the situation have, for the most part, been constructive overall so I don't think this thread should be closed. It is amazing how sensitive people are about criticism - ALSfirefighter said it best:

Whoever emailed or PM'd Seth. Get a grip and try reading objectively instead of what you want to see. There are arguments for both sides of the issue and some good discussion going on here.

LOL. I guess I will never be able to get some over the "bashing" or "monday morning quarterbacking" ridiculousness that chokes emergency services from learning from itself and even being metaphorically smacked in the face to realize wrongdoings. Praise away candy eaters, praise away and turn a blind eye to real issues.

As for where we're getting our information, we're all basing our comments and thoughts on the media coverage, the original post, and each other's comments on this forum. If someone has more information because of their affiliation with one of the agencies involved, then it is not public knowledge and should not be shared here. The suspect's family and/or attorney is not bound by HIPPA or any other privacy requirement so if they released the PCR to the media, that's their problem. It does point out how important it is to document patient contact VERY carefully! And with regard to issues (real or perceived) between EMS and the PD - does anyone else think that it shouldn't have been recorded on the PCR as it wasn't patient care related and should have been documented on an internal incident report of some sort?

As for policies on having Tazed suspects medically evaluated - why does it need to be a paramedic that does the evaluation?

As for removing the barbs - the cops put 'em in, the cops should be trained to take 'em out. No big deal at all and since EMS protocols prohibit the removal of an "impaled object" (even one such as this), why put EMS in the middle of it?! It is a superficial soft tissue injury, unless as ALS pointed out it strikes a more sensitive location, why are we making a big deal of it? If the suspect displays any other signs or symptoms of another medical condition - then treat that medical condition accordingly.

That the media is sensationalizing the whole thing shouldn't come as a shock (pun intended) to anyone!

[huzzie59 75]

A couple of police agency SOP's on the web,(cut and paste link).

http://less-lethal.org/docs/35/UOD_SOP6.pdf

http://www.tampagov.net/dept_Police/inform...0/sop_521.2.asp

Columbua Ohio:

20. Taser post-use

a. Any subject upon whom the taser is used, in either probe or drive stun

mode, shall be examined by EMS personnel and shall remain under

observation by sworn personnel until slated or released.

b. Sworn personnel shall request an EMS unit respond to the scene to

remove any probes that have penetrated the skin or to care for wounds

caused by probes that penetrated but fell out. Sworn personnel shall

not remove the probes.

(1) If the subject is transported to a medical facility, sworn personnel

shall ride in the medic unit and remain with the subject until further

medical attention has been offered.

(2) Sworn personnel shall call EMS personnel to the scene if any signs

or symptoms of medical distress become evident.

c. Sworn personnel shall provide the subject with the Taser Aftercare form,

S-70.112.

d. Sworn personnel shall treat the taser cartridge and probes as evidence

and shall secure and submit them to the Property Room. This does not

apply to accidental discharges when no subject is struck. Probes that

have penetrated the skin should be treated as a biohazard and proper

precautions should be taken when handling and packaging them.

[tbendick 27]

I would love to see the County come up with a Central Medical Control. In the city when things like this happen you get on the phone with the Doc. Sometimes they tell you to transport and sometimes they let the RMA go. I have signed the patients over to the PD and school principles in the past under direction from medical control.

As far as taking a patient to the hospital,who is in PD custody. Most times it's not a problem they will just ride into the ER. Sometimes they did take the pt back the station house to process the pt before calling, so that they could turn the patient over to corrections at the ER.

[Guest EFFP411]

I know that in our region, paramedics are NOT allowed to remove tazer barbs in the field, so th town cops decided to train themselves how to remove the barbs so they do not have to send the patient to the hospital to get them removed. They will only call an ambulance if the perp has other injuries, or the barbs were not removed properly, a "good zap" alone to them is not considered a medical emergency. As for the "Minor" issue, orur policy is also to transport anyone under the age of 18, unless the officer signs the PCR with his name, badge number, etc. Then its not our problem anymore. if something happens to the minor, it falls on the officer. Thats why 99% of the time, they will just let them be transported and follow the ambulance to the hospital.

[grumpyff 1,159]

As for removing the barbs - the cops put 'em in, the cops should be trained to take 'em out. No big deal at all and since EMS protocols prohibit the removal of an "impaled object" (even one such as this), why put EMS in the middle of it?! It is a superficial soft tissue injury, unless as ALS pointed out it strikes a more sensitive location, why are we making a big deal of it? If the suspect displays any other signs or symptoms of another medical condition - then treat that medical condition accordingly.

That the media is sensationalizing the whole thing shouldn't come as a shock (pun intended) to anyone!

If EMS protocol prohibits the removal of "impaled object", why would we let an untrained Police Officer remove them? I agree that a minor should definitely go to the ER. Is the PD there that short handed that one officer could not ride in the ambulance with SHAC to the hospital? Or was PD afraid that this might escalate at a hospital where it could be difficult to control the situation. If that was the case, then call on mutual aid, either County PD, The State, or neighboring towns, I'm sure they would have no problem coming to back up another officer in need. . SHAC got stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one. They were in no position to argue with PD, the patient is PD's responsibility, even if they(PD, not SHAC) disregard the EMS policies of the state. The best thing the EMT could do is write it all in the PCR, that PD decided that a trip to the ER was necessary. Document everything, names, times, shield numbers if needed, and have the officer, or in this case, the Chief sign the paperwork. Then after the call advise your chain of command, and have them contact your attorney and keep them in loop. Later on, after thing have cooled down, the headsd of both agencies could have a meeting to discuss what happened that night, and ways to prevent it from happening again.. Why is the public going after SHAC, I really don't know? Do they honestly think that EMS providers have some magical control over PD? While they do have concerns in this case, it makes their argument seem foolish to protest SHAC.

Honestly, it would only take the officer a minute or two to get the perp's info, and then go back to the stationhouse, and prepare any forms that are needed. The only thing that would be delayed by having the perp/patient at the hospital would be fingerprints. I don't know how fingerprints are done up here in Westchester, but the NYPD uses Livescan, a computerized fingerprint system. No ink is used, it is all done on optical readers, and electronically sent to Albany, and the city database. I have had fingerprints approved anywhere from 4 minutes to an hour ( In Manhattan, fingerprints must be approved by Albany before you can lodge your prisoner).

Edited September 7, 2007 by grumpyff

[helicopper 1,050]

If EMS protocol prohibits the removal of "impaled object", why would we let an untrained Police Officer remove them?

I would argue that the tazer barbs are not impaled objects as considered in EMS protocols - they don't want you to remove something when you don't know how long it is or where the damage has been done. With a tazer we know the length of the barb and they don't penetrate deeper than the dermis. IF the barb is elsewhere (head/groin for example) then it would be appropriate to transport for eval/removal. ALSfirefighter probably has more info on this from the tactical medic perspective too.

If training is provided to the police who are using tasers they won't be untrained will they?

[JJB531 652]

Part of the taser training involves removing the barbs. It's so ridiculous that we cannot remove them in the field from "non-sensitive" locations (i.e. trunk, back, legs, arms). All you do is flatten out the skin around the barb and give it a little tug and they pop right out. It's not rocket science.

[Oswegowind 17]

Well, EMS is in charge, once the person becomes a "patient". And that is the way it is supposed to be. All too many times I remember police officers simply telling me how to do my job. And as Scooby (Kittel-spelling?) once put it to a YPD Detective, "I don't remember ever telling you how to arrest someone". In NYC the NYPD usually listens too EMS and tries to help if they are asked by the EMS crew (note-usually). I recall stories from OLM'ers about the difference in respect EMS was given by the police in NYC and those in Yonkers (just as an example). Although some EMT's may need direction now and again, suggestions are different than orders! Sometimes it is all in the way of how you speak to someone. If the EMS in this particular case thought that the police were over-stepping their bounds than it should have been documented, and addressed internally through a department liason. I still don't think that EMS needs to be called to every taser job, but that the police can transport a tased subject to the hospital in a police car. I also don't feel that EMS BLS crews should sit there and wait for ALS to show up to decide a course of action. If BLS gets there and there is no need for ALS, they should be put back in service. To me, the PD policy of a medic seeing the patient, sounds as though they don't trust all EMS providers who receive the same basic training. If they want the "victim" to be seen by a medic, than transport him to the precinct/jail and have the medic meet the unit there...no emergency! Don't dispatch the EMS as a job...just have the medic come over and give some advice. If something goes wrong on scene than call in the calvary. Otherwise take the mope by radio car to the hospital to get the barbs removed if you can't do it yourself. But I think if you are trained to "taze" then you should also be trained to remove the barbs...remember, they can always seek medical attention later for the "lacerations" caused by the barbs!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Huzzie, I'm not sure what your point is with the 2 links and the part of the policy from the Ohio department you posted. But again I'm going to point out that TASER International gives a video on barb removal to department training personnel when they take the train the trainer for their departments. A very high percentage of PD's remove their own barbs.

Also any police officer who would remove a barb wouldn't be "untrained." You make the skin taught, you give a good pull, look at the dart to ensure the barb and all is there, you put a little bacitracin on it with a band aid. Its not that hard. As with anything else its called training and education. Again by NYS DOJ the subject was not a minor and had no medical issues. He had 2 small probes sticking out of him that I could teach my 5 year old how to remove and say have a nice day. And not for nothing but being a tactical medic and seeing this deployed by the officers I work with, I've seen just as many perps pull them out on their own as well before we could say not too.

Define "patient." Just because a person had been Tasered doesn't mean they are a patient.

Chris excellent points and info on the barbs.

If some of you really have issues about them being removed...there is always the "oops they fell out."

[helicopper 1,050]

Well, EMS is in charge, once the person becomes a "patient". And that is the way it is supposed to be. All too many times I remember police officers simply telling me how to do my job. And as Scooby (Kittel-spelling?) once put it to a YPD Detective, "I don't remember ever telling you how to arrest someone". In NYC the NYPD usually listens too EMS and tries to help if they are asked by the EMS crew (note-usually). I recall stories from OLM'ers about the difference in respect EMS was given by the police in NYC and those in Yonkers (just as an example). Although some EMT's may need direction now and again, suggestions are different than orders! Sometimes it is all in the way of how you speak to someone. If the EMS in this particular case thought that the police were over-stepping their bounds than it should have been documented, and addressed internally through a department liason. I still don't think that EMS needs to be called to every taser job, but that the police can transport a tased subject to the hospital in a police car. I also don't feel that EMS BLS crews should sit there and wait for ALS to show up to decide a course of action. If BLS gets there and there is no need for ALS, they should be put back in service. To me, the PD policy of a medic seeing the patient, sounds as though they don't trust all EMS providers who receive the same basic training. If they want the "victim" to be seen by a medic, than transport him to the precinct/jail and have the medic meet the unit there...no emergency! Don't dispatch the EMS as a job...just have the medic come over and give some advice. If something goes wrong on scene than call in the calvary. Otherwise take the mope by radio car to the hospital to get the barbs removed if you can't do it yourself. But I think if you are trained to "taze" then you should also be trained to remove the barbs...remember, they can always seek medical attention later for the "lacerations" caused by the barbs!

Good grief, are you really suggesting that a mope with a tazer barb in his butt should go to a HOSPITAL? Talk about misallocation of resources! One moment you argue that calling ALS isn't really necessary (I agree wholeheartedly) and next you say take the mope to a HOSPITAL? EMS (both BLS and ALS) and HOSPITALS have enough to deal with without babysitting a whiny perp who's gonna say whatever he thinks will keep him in the hospital longer.

If you issue a cop a tazer (and OC/mace/pepper spray for that matter), train them how to treat those tazed or sprayed. As ALS said, put a tube of antibiotic ointment and a few bandaids with the spare batteries/probes and call it a day. Call EMS when EMS is necessary - injury, diff breathing, complications from their pharmacological experimentation - but don't tie up critical resources for nothing.

And medics don't "give advice" - they treat people - calling the medic to the precinct is a waste of time. If the cops need to be babysat by a medic to pull out the barbs, they should be tazed themselves! For heaven's sake, it isn't that complicated!

Thanks ALS and JJB for the clarification on barb removal.

Go Joba and the Yanks!

[Guest partyrock]

Just because EMS can't remove the barb there is absolutely no reason why officers can't be trained to do it. In NYC EMT's cannot provide any treatment (even a bandaid) and RMA without contacting telemetry. Now you take a place like the Orchard Beach first aid station, where you have 2 EMT's sitting next to the first aid attendant. She can handle all the little BS, treat and send the people on their way. Anyone that wants to or needs to go to the hospital gets seen by the EMT's. Its complete horse excrement that EMT's cannot treat and release such minor injuries, but apparently more training makes you less capable of handling boo-boos.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Hopefully this thread won't just die out. This is good discussion on both sides and there is more to be learned.

Plus I'm very interested in one aspect of the conversation that I'd like to see some more input and thought process on:

For those of you who feel that anyone who has had a TASER deployment should be transported to the hospital, I just am curious as to why you feel that way? Please take some time and lets discuss why.

[calhobs 110]

The ambulance corps' policy is to transport anyone under 18 to the hospital because minors cannot refuse medical attention on their own.

According to a report prepared by the ambulance corps, Mota complained of back and neck pain but had no serious symptoms. He was alert, his breathing and pulse were listed as regular, his pupils were "normal" and his skin was "unremarkable."

This is what I mean about where are some of you getting your information from, This patent was not going to the hosptial for the barbs to be removed, he was going to the hosptial for back and neck pain.

As far as is a medic needed for this call. I would think maybe if the person was tazed in the neck or close to the heart maybe you need one (my knowledge of tazers is nil) but otherwise no, Keep in mind though it is SHPD procudure to call for a medic for all tazered persons

[5slow 9]

I've been involved in plenty of taser incidents and have never seen anyone other than the police remove the barbs. In the city, they have to be vouchered after use. So, why would the sergeant, or fortunate cop who grabbed the sergeants taser, let anyone else remove them?!

I also agree with a previous thread which said most of the info we're commenting on is from the newspaper. That's a very one-sided opinion. I feel pretty bad for the SHAC Captain who has been quoted personally by a lot of different people in this thread. I hope they're being careful...

[grumpyff 1,159]

NYPD tends to overreact in the name of saftey.. thats why perp goes to hospital, even though the majority of Sgts out there could handle the barb removal. Having the doctor remove them does nothing to affect the chain of custody, just like having a doctor prepare a rape kit, the PO does not have to been the room when the kit is prepared.. Just make sure to document doctor name, title, etc. NYPD only Sgt or above can carry Taser, except ESU, which is supposed to get clearance from ESU supervisor, if posssible, before using. During the training, the taser is used on volunteers, however the barbs are disengaged from the unit, and only stun-gun (cattle prod) part is used. The person who volunteers to be the test dummy gets caught by two others so they do not fall to the floor.

[JJB531 652]

Hopefully this thread won't just die out. This is good discussion on both sides and there is more to be learned.

Plus I'm very interested in one aspect of the conversation that I'd like to see some more input and thought process on:

For those of you who feel that anyone who has had a TASER deployment should be transported to the hospital, I just am curious as to why you feel that way? Please take some time and lets discuss why.

In regards to Taser use and medical intervention... just a couple quick points....

#1 - Calhobs, it doesn't matter how close the taser barb is to the heart. The current delivered by the Taser is 50,000 volts, but at a very low amperage. Studies conducted by cardiologists around the world have indicated that the Taser current DOES NOT penetrate the body's tissue deep enough to have an effect on cardiac muscle tissue.

#2 - One of the most important things to look for when dealing with a tased patient is how they were acting before the deployment of the Taser. An individual who is acting erratic, violent, delusional (all indications of drug use) should be transported to a medical facility for evaluation. These individuals are at a higher risk for excited delerium syndrome... they push their bodies beyond it's normal capabilities which leads to rhabdomyolysis (the breakdown of muscle fibers). These broken down fibers get released into the bloodstream. One chemical that is released is potassium. Increased levels of potassium in the bloodstream (hyperkalemia) leads to cardiac electrical dysrhythmias and then death.

#3 - Taser Int'l still recommends that individuals with cardiac/respiratory medical histories be transported to a medical facility for evaluation. Basically to CYA.

[helicopper 1,050]

The ambulance corps' policy is to transport anyone under 18 to the hospital because minors cannot refuse medical attention on their own.

According to a report prepared by the ambulance corps, Mota complained of back and neck pain but had no serious symptoms. He was alert, his breathing and pulse were listed as regular, his pupils were "normal" and his skin was "unremarkable."

This is what I mean about where are some of you getting your information from, This patent was not going to the hosptial for the barbs to be removed, he was going to the hosptial for back and neck pain.

As far as is a medic needed for this call. I would think maybe if the person was tazed in the neck or close to the heart maybe you need one (my knowledge of tazers is nil) but otherwise no, Keep in mind though it is SHPD procudure to call for a medic for all tazered persons

What is the policy for a person under 18 who has a guardian acting in loco parentis? Such as the school nurse or a school administrator or a police officer. If the parents of a person under 18 are present, they are allowed to RMA for the minor right?

As for the tazer and medic evaluation policy, that sounds like overkill to me. An EMT can assess a tazed subject just as well as a medic and if no significant signs and symptoms of something else are going on, there's no need to tie up a medic - especially in systems where they are in such short supply.

Neck and back pain after violently resisting arrest and being tazed - big surprise!

I don't think the discussion about transport to the hospital for barb removal relates to the Sleepy Hollow case but rather discussions about policies elsewhere.

ALS, you're right - this is one of the more interesting discussions of late!

[Guest]

As far as is a medic needed for this call. I would think maybe if the person was tazed in the neck or close to the heart maybe you need one (my knowledge of tazers is nil) but otherwise no, Keep in mind though it is SHPD procudure to call for a medic for all tazered persons

This is where things are not so clear to me. you said SHPD calls the medic for tazed perps, right? but you were called for complaints for other than the tazer's infliction or maybe secondary to the tazer...i don't know.

but the policy for mt pleasant police is anytime the medic gets called a BLS bus gets called and anytime you call for a BLS bus the medic gets called, unless another medic says otherwise.

so the newspapers say the medic was never called for the TAZER incident, but was the medic called once SHVAC was dispatched for the "irrelevant" concerns of the kid??

by the two pd's policies, i would assume that SHVAC AND the MEDIC would have been called no matter what the situation was.

if you don't mind, could you clarify this. thanks in advance.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

For those of you who feel that anyone who has had a TASER deployment should be transported to the hospital, I just am curious as to why you feel that way? Please take some time and lets discuss why.

Was hoping someone would chime in by now.

JJB summed it up very well, great post brother..but no real surprise there being I know you.

TASER's are deployed on a daily basis in this country and have better injury/in custody death statistics then those of chemical/physical restraint.

I'm not bashing anyone who has posted here but I have to be honest that I think some of the comments that all persons who have had a TASER deployed on them should be taken to the hospital is based on lack of information and knowledge on how the device is operated and its mechanism of action.

TASER recommends that person who have had a TASER used on them to be transported to the hospital when their has been any probe pentration to the head, neck and groin. Some departments based on policies I have read in my quest for knowledge when the department I work with carried them added the spinal column as well.

Additionally, they also as JJB pointed out strongly urge that the policy include the questioning of the subject on past medical history, including drug ingestion, and what their behavior was prior to the use of the TASER. Drug intoxicated subjects and those exhibiting "excited delirium" are at high risk for in custody sudden death syndrome. Theory is that those who were in an excited state become more excited and agitated upon arrival of uniformed personnel (this can include fire/ems) resist, requiring chemical and physical restraint or use of a TASER further increasing anxiety and flight or fight syndrome. Why exactly some go into sudden cardiac arrest is a topic of many opinions but the phenomenon is very well documented and interesting to read about. Particulary if you are a tactical medic.

Cardiac history and such it doesn't hurt to get them evaluated, however the energy level for TASER is well below the cardiac fibrillation threshold and it will not override any inplanted ECD's. (pacemakers, defibs).

Chris you again have excellent input and thanks for the back up on trying to keep the post going. I think some providers get too hung up on things that unfortunately get left in a lot of gray area in the EMS business. And if I really would have that issue with the PD I work with a lot, I would have documented what happened and that I recommended that the PD have the subject transported to the hospital for further evaluation at their earliest convenience and had them sign. End of case. Just because a person had a TASER incident does not make them a patient.

Just to point out again, there is information out there about TASER's and other less lethal devices/weapons. If interested PM me and I will give you the particulars.

[RWC130 594]

First, and most important I mean no disrespect to ANY

- Sleepy Hollow Police Department member,

- Sleepy Hollow Fire Department member,

- Sleepy Hollow Ambulance Corps member.

If ANY of you ever needed me I'd have your back in a second.

Now, with that being said is it me or do we have a SERIOUS issue in Sleepy Hollow?

An incident happened a few years ago with a Sleepy Hollow FD Assistant Fire Chief who was a Sleepy Hollow

Police Officer. Then the Westchester County DA got involved in a incident with Sleepy Hollow FD and Sleepy Hollow PD.

Some of the same people involved. Now the Sleepy Hollow VAC is going against the Police? Once again some

familiar names in the incident.

Is someone stirring the pot? Someone have an agenda?

I won't judge and I won't Monday morning quarterback ANY of the incidents but I have never seen

a local Fire, Police, and EMS in the press at war with each other so much.

WHY?

What does this accomplish?

BATTLE OF THE BADGES? NO!

We ALL suffer in the end!

It takes a long time for an agency to build up a good working relationship with each other and

just one incident to destroy it. Sleepy Hollow seems to be one after another.

WORK TOGETHER, WIN TOGETHER!

Let's put this whole thing to rest.

[gpdexplorer 46]

Well said, Rob! Think you have made an excellent point!

[20Truck 7]

Now, with that being said is it me or do we have a SERIOUS issue in Sleepy Hollow?

An incident happened a few years ago with a Sleepy Hollow FD Assistant Fire Chief who was a Sleepy Hollow

Police Officer. Then the Westchester County DA got involved in a incident with Sleepy Hollow FD and Sleepy Hollow PD.

Some of the same people involved. Now the Sleepy Hollow VAC is going against the Police? Once again some

familiar names in the incident.

Is someone stirring the pot? Someone have an agenda?

Pardon me if I seem a little "touchy" on this subject. It seems to me like you may have something agains't your "familiar names" down in SH. Maybe something personal agains't 2 particular people? In the past you claimed to have inside information on cases regarding SHFD members. The same members that were found "not guilty" by a jury of their peers? I guess what Im trying to say is in all cases; I am sure that all the facts have not be made public, especially to you. So, as you said, lets put this issue to rest. Im sure the truth will come out, quite soon.

Rob, I mean no disrespect to you... but I think there are misconceptions about what has gone on down there.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

The TASER and a STUN GUN are two diffrent things. The TASER shoots darts that require the removal at a hospital. The Stun Gun does not. I don't know what model stun device that SHPD has. But if it is like the new units the NYPD has. They have both of these options in the same gun. I thought the news reported that the kid was shocked with the stun device ad opposed to shot with the quils. They use the term TASER to describe either option, because they either don't know the diffrence, or they just want to use the more catchy phrase.

Either way.. the kid got what he deserved!! Much RESPECT.. !!!

[RWC130 594]

20Truck,

No disrespect taken and thanks for that remark.

I know some members of SHVAC and SHFD.

I happen to like everyone and no issues with anyone at all.

For the record, I was a big supporter for someone in one of the incidents

as were other members of this site.

Feel free to PM me, we'll chat more.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The TASER shoots darts that require the removal at a hospital.

CommandChief. I'm not pointing this at you directly, just at the sentence in your quote being it is not entirely accurate. The TASER does shoot darts or can be utilized in the "drive stun" mode (no probes, is more pain compliance like a stun gun when the user is too close for probe deployment). However, just because a person has been struck by the probes and they are imbedded does not require them to be taken to the hospital to be removed. A very high percentage of law enforcement agencies remove the probes themselves, which is also acceptable by TASER International in their training program. It is recommended by TASER International and is a requirement for just about every policy I've read, that if the probes strike a "sensitive area" being the face, neck, groin and again some have added spinal column that they then be transported to the hospital. There are also recommendations that most follow that if the subject displayed "agitated delerium," any other mental issues, admits to substance abuse or has a cardiac history that its highly advisable that they be observed.

The transportation to the hospital is agency specific by policy. I've also written and submitted a policy to my medical director to have our medics trained in its removal at the police station. It addresses much of what I mentioned above, has very specific assessment requirements, training on dart removal and such. Hopefully it will get moved along in the upper tier of EMS oversight and be approved.

[Guest TOYBUFF911]

Train more cops to be Emt's and enlarge ESU units countywide

[MoFire390 118]

I'm just wondering is there anyway that people can be trained when a call like this comes in, in the future?