Sleepy Hollow EMTs at odds with police chief over stun-gun case

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Sleepy Hollow EMTs at odds with police chief over stun-gun case

By JONATHAN BANDLER

THE JOURNAL NEWS

(Original publication: September 5, 2007)

SLEEPY HOLLOW - Police Chief Jimmy Warren did not wait for a paramedic to evaluate a 16-year-old who was shocked with a stun gun before deciding the boy did not require further medical treatment.

Emergency medical technicians from the Sleepy Hollow Volunteer Ambulance Corps were prepared to take Duanny Lara Mota to the hospital Aug. 27 when Warren intervened and ordered the boy be taken into police headquarters.

The department's "Taser" policy does not require hospitalization in similar circumstances, but does require that a paramedic evaluate the patient to determine if further medical treatment is needed.

Mota had been stopped by Detective Jose Quinoy and Officer Paul Nelson for riding his bicycle on the sidewalk. When the officers said they would have to take the bike to police headquarters to check if it had been stolen, Mota began cursing and yelling at them. Mota then shoved Quinoy and ran off, police said. He was caught and struggled again with Quinoy, who directed Nelson to shoot the teenager with the stun gun.

Once he was handcuffed, Mota was taken from the scene in the ambulance. Police said it was to get him away from the large crowd that had gathered.

Warren claimed he thought one of the people on the ambulance that night was a paramedic, but that would have required his officers to call Mount Pleasant police to dispatch TransCare, the agency that sends paramedics to Sleepy Hollow. Warren said yesterday that he thought his desk officer had called for TransCare and figured that the paramedic had met up with the ambulance and was riding along.

But the president of the Sleepy Hollow Volunteer Ambulance Corps, James Hayes, has accused Warren of misrepresenting his interaction with the ambulance crew. Hayes said Warren "absolutely" knew the three-member crew were emergency medical technicians. "There's no way he could have confused us in civilian clothes with paramedics in their uniforms," Hayes said.

While Warren claims the ambulance crew never insisted on taking the boy to the hospital, Hayes said they did. "They said he had to go. (Warren) said: 'No, he doesn't. He needs to go into my cell.'"

The ambulance corps' policy is to transport anyone under 18 to the hospital because minors cannot refuse medical attention on their own.

According to a report prepared by the ambulance corps, Mota complained of back and neck pain but had no serious symptoms. He was alert, his breathing and pulse were listed as regular, his pupils were "normal" and his skin was "unremarkable."

The report indicated that the ambulance crew was unable to remove the stun-gun barbs from the boy's back and was proceeding to the hospital. The crew was redirected to police headquarters, where Quinoy removed the barbs and Warren determined it was unnecessary for Mota to go to the hospital. The report concludes that the patient was released to police custody "against medical advice" after Warren signed that he was taking custody.

Hayes said state law prohibits emergency medical technicians from removing the barbs.

Several EMTs were on hand at a village board work session last night to publicly discuss their role the night of the incident and as a show of support for the crew that was at the scene, they said.

However, after a lengthy executive session of the counsel, Mayor Philip Zegarelli told the EMTs that they could not address the counsel.

"Under the Westchester County Police Act," Zegarelli told The Journal News after speaking with the EMTs, "when there is a formal charge or complaint lodged, the mayor and board stand as judge and jury over the matter. That means that the board can't talk to people individually." He told the EMTs they would have to direct complaints to the village attorney.

Several EMTs, including the three who were on the ambulance that night - Pete Dreesen, Ryan Murray and Miguel Valle - said they are afraid to go out on calls for fear of retribution from Mota supporters. They allege that on Thursday and Friday night, more than 40 people stood in front of the village ambulance building in support of Mota.

Dreesen said he was disappointed that the group didn't get to address the meeting. "We're not looking to point the finger at anybody," he said. "We just want our side, what our involvement actually was, to get out there."

Mota was charged with resisting arrest and obstructing governmental administration, misdemeanors, and disorderly conduct, a violation. He is due back in village court on Monday.

What is everybody elses policy? I think in most cases the Patient will be an RMA once the barbs are removed. Of course if there is a more serious underlying medical problem the PERP should be checked out.

[grumpyff 1,159]

For the NYPD, if the Taser is used, the perp goes to the hospital. The barbs are removed there, and then vouchered as evidence. I do not understand why you would not want to take a prisoner to the hospital. God forbid something happens to that person while they are in your custody...you are responsible. Even if you had a paramedic remove the barbs in the field, and later on it gets infected, you know that the perp, and his lawyer are going to make a point of being denied access to a medical care...the doctor.

Edited September 5, 2007 by grumpyff

[mikeinet 37]

wow... I was stunned when I read this article. Not to say who's at fault or what my opinion is (though it's obvious) - I can totally see this playing out as I've personally seen similar things happen between law enforcement and EMS.

I think the bigger issue here is that everyone needs to remember we "play on the same team" and one cannot stand taller than the other because they took them to a cell or they took them to a hospital...

You can very easily handcuff someone at a hospital and put them under arrest

[x635 4,066]

Absolutely should be a transport to the hospital. I fully support tazers, and think they are an awesome tool to effectively and efficiently end a situation that could cause serious injury to the officer and the perp. The Tazer can have, in rare circumstances, negative effects just like Mace or a Nightstick.

However, when used, the perp should be transported to the hospital for evaluation, especially when he/she is a minor. This not only transfers liability, it ensures that if anything goes wrong, you took the proper steps.

It's a very grey area when the police don't want you to transport. If they called you, and you are the higher medical authority, is the person in your custody or the PD's???? The best bet is to call a supervisor and to document the situation as best as you can, including contacting medical control to see if they can persuade the Police Officers and requesting Paramedics yourselves.

BUT, a situation like this should be addressed in the PD department policy so that situations like the above don't occur.

[MoFire390 118]

I just dont get it, it sounds to me like the Police Chief did the wrong thing and is trying to blame the ambulace corp stating that they didnt do the right thing. First off, the problem I see here is most of the local PD's know who is on the ambulace when they get there and some know weather one is an emt/paramedic/driver/attendent (am I right so far). Second, You can't miss Trans-Care's Paramedic truck it says "TRANS-CARE" right on the side of it. (weird) I find it hard to believe that all the officers didnt see that white truck with those big green letters on it. Its kinda hard to miss. Not only that but where does it say that an officer can remove the barbs of a taser? And finally, I support the emt's that where on that shift it all comes back to them when NYS DOH is looking at the PCR. ITS NOT YOUR FAULT GUYS STAY STRONG YOU DID THE RIGHT THING!!!!!!!!! DON'T WORRIE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE YOU KNOW THAT YOU DID THE RIGHT THING DON'T LET ANYONE TELL YOU DIFFERENT!!!!!!

[PATROL224 0]

Transport the person under arrest to the hospital first with a police officer so they remain in custody. Then have them medically treated and cleared by a doctor. Finally when they are cleared by a doctor its OFF TO JAIL!!

[firemoose827 324]

This is an interesting subject that I know little about. We dont get very many "Perps" up here, except for cow tippers, now THEY are dangerous....

Any more police officers out there that can share some more on this topic? I have never thought of this before and would have went to remove the barbs myself, than transport the subject for evaluation with an officer on board or following. Any more thoughts?

[GAW6 66]

What is everybody elses policy? I think in most cases the Patient will be an RMA once the barbs are removed. Of course if there is a more serious underlying medical problem the PERP should be checked out.

A 16-year old cannot RMA. The crew either has to transport the patient or wait for the parent/guardian to arrive at the scene and sign the RMA. Unless he is an emancipated minor.

Edited September 5, 2007 by GAW6

[smwells 7]

PD blew it!!

The EMT's should not have accepted an RMA signed by the PD.. Pt was under age and if the crew felt it was not in the best interest of the patient, then he should have gone to the hospital.. So PD's paperwork would have been delayed by an hour while the PT was being evaluated.. BIG DEAL..

PD protocol seems to be the issue, Something seems a miss if the Chief of the PD is signing the RMA??

[ex-commish 490]

"Mota had been stopped by Detective Jose Quinoy and Officer Paul Nelson for riding his bicycle on the sidewalk. When the officers said they would have to take the bike to police headquarters to check if it had been stolen, Mota began cursing and yelling at them. Mota then shoved Quinoy and ran off, police said. He was caught and struggled again with Quinoy, who directed Nelson to shoot the teenager with the stun gun".

I am not defending the police but based on what I have read could it be the person in custody was deemed a threat to both the crew and the police? Wasn't he accused by the police of pushing a detective? Unless you were part of the EMS crew I feel you cannot pass judgement based on what is put in the media especially lately there seems to be a magnifying glass on law enforcement. I fully understand the EMS crews frustration but I think untill all facts are put out we should refrain from passing judgement.

[JJB531 652]

I am not defending the police but based on what I have read could it be the person in custody was deemed a threat to both the crew and the police? Wasn't he accused by the police of pushing a detective? Unless you were part of the EMS crew I feel you cannot pass judgement based on what is put in the media especially lately there seems to be a magnifying glass on law enforcement. I fully understand the EMS crews frustration but I think untill all facts are put out we should refrain from passing judgement.

He's really not much of a threat after he's been tasered and rear handcuffed....

[LTNRFD 266]

According to a report prepared by the ambulance corps, Mota complained of back and neck pain but had no serious symptoms. He was alert, his breathing and pulse were listed as regular, his pupils were "normal" and his skin was "unremarkable."

The report indicated that the ambulance crew was unable to remove the stun-gun barbs from the boy's back and was proceeding to the hospital. The crew was redirected to police headquarters, where Quinoy removed the barbs and Warren determined it was unnecessary for Mota to go to the hospital. The report concludes that the patient was released to police custody "against medical advice" after Warren signed that he was taking custody.

Is it just me or does it look like the Journal News got a look at the PCR or an incident report with the patient's medical info on it. One word.....HIPAA.

[x635 4,066]

Is it just me or does it look like the Journal News got a look at the PCR or an incident report with the patient's medical info on it. One word.....HIPAA.

Absolutelty, there's something wrong with that unless the patient released it to the Journal News with his permission.

It's sad, it seems like every time you hear about Sleepy Hollow Emergency Services in the news, it's bad. I hope for all the members that some sort of solution to better their working relationships and improve their public image is worked on after this latest incident settles down.

[GAW6 66]

Is it just me or does it look like the Journal News got a look at the PCR or an incident report with the patient's medical info on it. One word.....HIPAA.

Believe me, reporters have their ways of getting their hands on things. I was the Crew Chief on the ambulance for the infamous "Nanny Fire" in Thornwood back in 1991. The defense had subpoened my PCR, it was then given out to all the media; CBS showed the PCR on TV and a reporter for the then Reporter Dispatch walked into our HQ with the PCR in her hand! Attorneys take them and just give them out - so don't blame the ambulance crew for giving out the info.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

First...the majority of law enforcement agencies that carry TASER in the U.S. do not take the arrestee to the hospital. Unless there is a probe strike to the head, neck, face, groin or spinal column or other medical history or they are under the influence of drugs. The barbs are very simple to pull out, you check to ensure that the barb is complete, wipe it with anitseptic, put a little triple antibiotic ointment on it and a band aid, give the barb to the officer for evidence. I for one with the exposure to TASER and the training I sat through honestly believe that just because a person had a TASER used on them does not mean they have to be transported to the hospital. The recovery time from the cycle delivery is remarkable fast. If this was the case I would have to have every officer who took a delivery during training to the hospital.

The fact that he is 16 has some different issues, but lets face it he wasn't 12 and he was in police custody whether you think it was warranted or not.

Just as an FYI...a TASER is not a "stun gun." A stun gun generally is a pain compliance tool where a TASER is an electrical control device. It causes both pain and incapacitation. They are accepted by most to be extremely safe, except those who are concerned about criminals rights and such, and there has not been a single death attributed to the use of a TASER and very few where a ME labeled it as a "possible contributor." If you look up the numbers, the TASER was deployed on persons who died in police custody fewer times then the use of actual physical restraint. And those whom died later after a TASER was used on them often were under the influence of street drugs.

I have and present a less lethal weapons for EMS presentation and it covers things from blunt impact weapons, to ECD's (electrical control devices), chemical and physical restraint. Its all about knowing what it is, what it does and doing the right thing.

Also TASER I believe and from what stats I've read is and will be a huge impact tool that law enforcement officers have to further ensure their safety and to protect them from injuries during arrests. I have several friends whose careers were cut short due to debilitating back, elbow and shoulder injuries from arrests. If they had a TASER perhaps it wouldn't have every happened.

Again, if the agency released the info that is a violation of privacy rights, not HiPAA. HiPAA covers the transfer of patient information electronically.

Edited September 5, 2007 by alsfirefighter

[LTNRFD 266]

Believe me, reporters have their ways of getting their hands on things. I was the Crew Chief on the ambulance for the infamous "Nanny Fire" in Thornwood back in 1991. The defense had subpoened my PCR, it was then given out to all the media; CBS showed the PCR on TV and a reporter for the then Reporter Dispatch walked into our HQ with the PCR in her hand! Attorneys take them and just give them out - so don't blame the ambulance crew for giving out the info.

Laws have changed since 1991. Back then we all offered patient info to anyone who asked. Now you need a subpoena and that does not give you the right to share the info with John Q. Public. This of couse can be shared if the patient allows it.

I'm not blaming the the crew, but it seems that someone in the ambulance corps, police or village administration let this info go public. Everyone has to abide by the HIPAA rules, not just EMS.

[Guest feraldan]

A 16-year old cannot RMA. The crew either has to transport the patient or wait for the parent/guardian to arrive at the scene and sign the RMA. Unless he is an emancipated minor.

I think that is pretty much the bottom line right there.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

QUOTE

A 16-year old cannot RMA. The crew either has to transport the patient or wait for the parent/guardian to arrive at the scene and sign the RMA. Unless he is an emancipated minor.

I think that is pretty much the bottom line right there.

OK. Again, yes this person was 16 but again he was in police custody. If you are on the scene of a motor vehicle accident or a kid who sprained his ankle playing football, the police officer can sign for the minor there and they also can sign for a person in their custody and all responsibility and legality falls on them.

[ex-commish 490]

He's really not much of a threat after he's been tasered and rear handcuffed....

He may be not much of a threat but he is still a threat in general. I deem any prisoner in my custody a threat.

[firemoose827 324]

First...the majority of law enforcement agencies that carry TASER in the U.S. do not take the arrestee to the hospital. Unless there is a probe strike to the head, neck, face, groin or spinal column or other medical history or they are under the influence of drugs. The barbs are very simple to pull out, you check to ensure that the barb is complete, wipe it with anitseptic, put a little triple antibiotic ointment on it and a band aid, give the barb to the officer for evidence. I for one with the exposure to TASER and the training I sat through honestly believe that just because a person had a TASER used on them does not mean they have to be transported to the hospital. The recovery time from the cycle delivery is remarkable fast. If this was the case I would have to have every officer who took a delivery during training to the hospital.

The fact that he is 16 has some different issues, but lets face it he wasn't 12 and he was in police custody whether you think it was warranted or not.

Just as an FYI...a TASER is not a "stun gun." A stun gun generally is a pain compliance tool where a TASER is an electrical control device. It causes both pain and incapacitation. They are accepted by most to be extremely safe, except those who are concerned about criminals rights and such, and there has not been a single death attributed to the use of a TASER and very few where a ME labeled it as a "possible contributor." If you look up the numbers, the TASER was deployed on persons who died in police custody fewer times then the use of actual physical restraint. And those whom died later after a TASER was used on them often were under the influence of street drugs.

I have and present a less lethal weapons for EMS presentation and it covers things from blunt impact weapons, to ECD's (electrical control devices), chemical and physical restraint. Its all about knowing what it is, what it does and doing the right thing.

Also TASER I believe and from what stats I've read is and will be a huge impact tool that law enforcement officers have to further ensure their safety and to protect them from injuries during arrests. I have several friends whose careers were cut short due to debilitating back, elbow and shoulder injuries from arrests. If they had a TASER perhaps it wouldn't have every happened.

Again, if the agency released the info that is a violation of privacy rights, not HiPAA. HiPAA covers the transfer of patient information electronically.

Thanks for the info ALS, I dont have much experience with "Tazers" and that was very helpful. Another question for you or any other member who might know...being its an Electrical Control Device, does it cause any interference with pace makers? I would imagine it doesnt pack enough power to interupt one but I thought I would ask just to clarify.

Also, I believe everyone is correct in the belief that the minor was in the custody of the PD as soon as he was arrested and that a parents "signature" was not needed. If he was arrested than he was the responsibility of the PD.

[Guest feraldan]

OK. Again, yes this person was 16 but again he was in police custody. If you are on the scene of a motor vehicle accident or a kid who sprained his ankle playing football, the police officer can sign for the minor there and they also can sign for a person in their custody and all responsibility and legality falls on them.

I was at an MVA the other day involving a 16 y/o. We waited until his father arrived to sign the RMA.

I've never had an officer RMA for a minor, only sign as a witness to the RMA in addition to a parental signature. I've never had one of our officers demand an RMA either. I think they respect our opinions a bit more than that.

[Guest]

Transport the person under arrest to the hospital first with a police officer so they remain in custody. Then have them medically treated and cleared by a doctor. Finally when they are cleared by a doctor its OFF TO JAIL!!

hit the nail on the head.

[Guest]

Absolutelty, there's something wrong with that unless the patient released it to the Journal News with his permission.

It's sad, it seems like every time you hear about Sleepy Hollow Emergency Services in the news, it's bad. I hope for all the members that some sort of solution to better their working relationships and improve their public image is worked on after this latest incident settles down.

he's 16, he cannot sign a Health Info release, just like he cannot sign an RMA. either a parent/gardian gave it the ok to be released or it simply leaked out

[RescueKujo 130]

With the increase of cases where prisoners go into cardiac arrest after being placed in custody due to "Excited delirium", every department using tasers should look at their policies. If the patient is so out of control that they must be tased, for liability sake I would get them to an ER for eval. Egg on one's face after the person in custody codes isn't pretty.

[Guest]

hey, oneeyed...does the town PD have a policy?? i know vvac doesn't, but we will now...

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

hey, oneeyed...does the town PD have a policy?? i know vvac doesn't, but we will now...

I am sure we do. Do I know it, NO. I am not taser trained yet hopefully soon. There have been some calls when I wanted it used. Prob the same as everyone else. I guess you have to see how the Pt presents after being Tased. The ODDS are very low that a person dies from being Tased. Usually an under lying medical conditon or DRUGS that causes the problem. I would have the MEDIC come to HQ and pull out the barbs, put some antiseptic on the LITTLE WOUNDS that is causes and complete my paperwork.

Did anyone think that you have to be TASED to be CERTEFIED? Do those people have to go to the ER to get them removed? NO

BTW, I know that you can't RMA a 16yo. They should have just gone to the ER and dealt with PD after that.

Just remember what you are reading isn't always the TRUTH. I know that you may be shocked by that but I am sure there is more to this. In fact I know there is more to this.

[Guest]

I am sure we do. Do I know it, NO. I am not taser trained yet hopefully soon. There have been some calls when I wanted it used. Prob the same as everyone else. I guess you have to see how the Pt presents after being Tased. The ODDS are very low that a person dies from being Tased. Usually an under lying medical conditon or DRUGS that causes the problem. I would have the MEDIC come to HQ and pull out the barbs, put some antiseptic on the LITTLE WOUNDS that is causes and complete my paperwork.

Did anyone think that you have to be TASED to be CERTEFIED? Do those people have to go to the ER to get them removed? NO

BTW, I know that you can't RMA a 16yo. They should have just gone to the ER and dealt with PD after that.

Just remember what you are reading isn't always the TRUTH. I know that you may be shocked by that but I am sure there is more to this. In fact I know there is more to this.

THANKS. you're right, not all of the info may be true. but the truth is the kid is 16 and he cannot RMA w/o parent or gardian concent...the PD really has no say. the SHVAC members and/or M1 to cover themselves, (in my opinion) they should have overridden the PD.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

THANKS. you're right, not all of the info may be true. but the truth is the kid is 16 and he cannot RMA w/o parent or gardian concent...the PD really has no say. the SHVAC members and/or M1 to cover themselves, (in my opinion) they should have overridden the PD.

I agree but you have to think of it in other ways. MOST LEO's don't know that you can't RMA if your 16. It is IMPLIED in and accident and the 16yo has to go to the ER and NO a parent or guarding can be reached. We don't know what the crew was thinking. If they go against the PD then they might feel they will be BLACKBALLED. Can I say that or not? It seems like your darned if you do and darned if you don't in this situation. DARN I said DARN again. Not sure if MEDIC 1 was even there. I will find out though. Most of the time they might get cancelled enroute either by SHPD calling MPPD or inderectly by NEXTEL or by some other means. Not too sure in this case.

[Guest]

I agree but you have to think of it in other ways. MOST LEO's don't know that you can't RMA if your 16. It is IMPLIED in and accident and the 16yo has to go to the ER and NO a parent or guarding can be reached. We don't know what the crew was thinking. If they go against the PD then they might feel they will be BLACKBALLED. Can I say that or not? It seems like your darned if you do and darned if you don't in this situation. DARN I said DARN again. Not sure if MEDIC 1 was even there. I will find out though. Most of the time they might get cancelled enroute either by SHPD calling MPPD or inderectly by NEXTEL or by some other means. Not too sure in this case.

GOTCHA, so the question is why didn't SHVAC inform SHPD of this? anyways, i feel very sorry for all parties involed, including this kid because he will end up in the middle of PD and VAC politics...which we all know can be VERY brutal

[irishfire2491 24]

Warren claimed he thought one of the people on the ambulance that night was a paramedic, but that would have required his officers to call Mount Pleasant police to dispatch TransCare, the agency that sends paramedics to Sleepy Hollow. Warren said yesterday that he thought his desk officer had called for TransCare and figured that the paramedic had met up with the ambulance and was riding along

That is why we need a CENTRAL DISPACTH!!!!!