New Trunked System & Interoperability

[SteveOFD 176]

Now that the new Trunked System will be coming online I still have some concerns about the radio communications in the County.

It is my understanding that the Trunked System will be for the initial response to the incident (i.e. response from Quarters to arrival at the incident), and communications to 60 Control. Thereon communications will be on the assigned Fireground channels.

The above scenario (in my opinion) would if implemented, facilitate interoperability between all Westchester County Fire & EMS agencies.

I am not looking to step on toes or say everyone needs to be on the County System but my concern arises from agencies using their own "private" radio systems. Among Westchester FD's, 7 FD's have had there own systems for quite some time. Within the last 5 years, 6 more FD's have moved to thier own systems. Two more FD's respond on 46.26Mhz, but move to their own freq. when on scene. This totals to 15 FD's using their own frequency at the incident.

The concern I have is that if the crap hits the fan and Mutual Aid is brought in, will the responding MA FD's be able to communicate with the host FD. It is my understanding that the career FD's down county have each other's freq's programmed in each other's radios to facilitate this interoperability.

The scenario that concerns me the most is if one of these "private" freq. FD's needs MA and they need a FASTeam to rescue one of their own. The downed FF('s) would be stuck inside with his/her radio on his/her FD's "private" channel with no means of communicating with the incoming FASTeam. As we all know it is difficult to change channels inside with full gear on. This is not to mention that the rest of the host FD's members would not be listening to or assisting the FAST, if needed, because they would still be on their "private" freq.

My question is what formal/informal policies or procedures does your FD have to facilitate communications of the operation you are working at? Think outside the box. Will you be able to communicate with FD's that will be responding from a distance (i.e. Hackley School fire)?

[bmfd231 3]

Now that the new Trunked System will be coming online I still have some concerns about the radio communications in the County.

It is my understanding that the Trunked System will be for the initial response to the incident (i.e. response from Quarters to arrival at the incident), and communications to 60 Control. Thereon communications will be on the assigned Fireground channels.

The above scenario (in my opinion) would if implemented, facilitate interoperability between all Westchester County Fire & EMS agencies.

I am not looking to step on toes or say everyone needs to be on the County System but my concern arises from agencies using their own "private" radio systems. Among Westchester FD's, 7 FD's have had there own systems for quite some time. Within the last 5 years, 6 more FD's have moved to thier own systems. Two more FD's respond on 46.26Mhz, but move to their own freq. when on scene. This totals to 15 FD's using their own frequency at the incident.

The concern I have is that if the crap hits the fan and Mutual Aid is brought in, will the responding MA FD's be able to communicate with the host FD. It is my understanding that the career FD's down county have each other's freq's programmed in each other's radios to facilitate this interoperability.

The scenario that concerns me the most is if one of these "private" freq. FD's needs MA and they need a FASTeam to rescue one of their own. The downed FF('s) would be stuck inside with his/her radio on his/her FD's "private" channel with no means of communicating with the incoming FASTeam. As we all know it is difficult to change channels inside with full gear on. This is not to mention that the rest of the host FD's members would not be listening to or assisting the FAST, if needed, because they would still be on their "private" freq.

My question is what formal/informal policies or procedures does your FD have to facilitate communications of the operation you are working at? Think outside the box. Will you be able to communicate with FD's that will be responding from a distance (i.e. Hackley School fire)?

Current operations

In Briarcliff, our operations will continue as they do now. As you know, we have our own UHF system. Once dispatched from PD on 46.26, we immediatly move to our operational frequency for the response and communication with PD. All our portables are set for the talk around on that frequency and if we have a job, we will move to one of the Fire ground frequencies. When 60 pages the call, we respond to them on 46.26 but will still use our private frequency to contact PD. In the event we need mutual aid, we use 46.26. This system works great because we are isolated from 46.26 and are not competing for air time.

Trunked Systems

We will continue to operate as I explained above except in mutual aid calls. One of your concerns above would be the inability to communicate (ie trapped firefighter, etc) with the outside world. This would not be the case. All units will continue to use the current fireground frequencies 1 thru 8 which is located on bank C of your mobile unit and your current UHF radios. No firefighters will be carrying the new trucked handheld radio (only three given to each department - go to the chiefs), therefore you will not be able to communicate with 60 from those radios. In a mutual aid situation, a chief or command officer would contact 60 on bank A for fire or bank B for ems. There is a home channel for each bank to make that connection. Once established, 60 can create a talk group for all mutal aid unit going to that operation. If Bedford or Mamaroneck is called to Briarcliff, they will be able to talk to the IC enroute, which is not always possible now. 60 would then monitor that group and respond to requests directly from an IC.

What you need to remember is that all on the scene will continue to use the current uhf radios, using fireground 1 thru 8. All trucks and the chiefs will have the ability to communicate with 60 control

Hope that helps

[SteveOFD 176]

Current operations

In Briarcliff, our operations will continue as they do now. As you know, we have our own UHF system. Once dispatched from PD on 46.26, we immediatly move to our operational frequency for the response and communication with PD. All our portables are set for the talk around on that frequency and if we have a job, we will move to one of the Fire ground frequencies.

Trunked Systems

We will continue to operate as I explained above except in mutual aid calls. One of your concerns above would be the inability to communicate (ie trapped firefighter, etc) with the outside world. This would not be the case. All units will continue to use the current fireground frequencies 1 thru 8 which is located on bank C of your mobile unit and your current UHF radios. No firefighters will be carrying the new trucked handheld radio (only three given to each department - go to the chiefs), therefore you will not be able to communicate with 60 from those radios.

What you need to remember is that all on the scene will continue to use the current uhf radios, using fireground 1 thru 8. All trucks and the chiefs will have the ability to communicate with 60 control

Hope that helps

BMFD231

I understand that the UHF portables will not communicate to 60 Control through the trunked system and the system was not designed for fireground operations.

The point I was trying to make is that if an FD that uses its "private" frequency for any fireground operations, how easy is it operationally to switch the whole Department over to a County Fireground channel. The example I gave in my previous post where a FF arrives on scene to a working fire, when does the FF switch from the FD's "private" frequency to a County FG channel, and who is to give this order. If the FF was trapped inside on his "private" frequency because he did not receive the order to change, or the order was not given, the only contact he would have with the outside world would be on his own FD frequency. Incoming FASTeam(s) would not be able to communicate with him/her unless they borrowed a radio with the "private" frequency on it. It just seems to me to be confusing as to which channel to use. IMO if the County FG's were used 24/7/365 it is just one less thing to have to worry about. The KISS principle.

This is not even mentioning the FD's that have been on, or recently established their own VHF radio systems. This is an even more difficult change not even being in the same frequency band. This is my concern regarding interoperability.

[bmfd231 3]

BMFD231

I understand that the UHF portables will not communicate to 60 Control through the trunked system and the system was not designed for fireground operations.

The point I was trying to make is that if an FD that uses its "private" frequency for any fireground operations, how easy is it operationally to switch the whole Department over to a County Fireground channel. The example I gave in my previous post where a FF arrives on scene to a working fire, when does the FF switch from the FD's "private" frequency to a County FG channel, and who is to give this order. If the FF was trapped inside on his "private" frequency because he did not receive the order to change, or the order was not given, the only contact he would have with the outside world would be on his own FD frequency. Incoming FASTeam(s) would not be able to communicate with him/her unless they borrowed a radio with the "private" frequency on it. It just seems to me to be confusing as to which channel to use. IMO if the County FG's were used 24/7/365 it is just one less thing to have to worry about. The KISS principle.

This is not even mentioning the FD's that have been on, or recently established their own VHF radio systems. This is an even more difficult change not even being in the same frequency band. This is my concern regarding interoperability.

I think I see the point you are concerned with. In our operations, we move to a county fireground frequency (1-8), which all departments have during a major incident. The reason we do this is to keep our private frequency clear for command (chief) use with our PD. Command normally notifies us of the change while we are responding, or shortly after we arrive. We do this early for the exact reason you are concerned, someone may not get the message. Officers normally make sure the change has been completed.

Can it be confusing with your own frequecy, it was in the beginning. Once everyone settled down to the new procedure, they realized the advantage to it. For one and most important, we are not competing for space on 46.26, especially when departments lack consideration for others by not switching off it for there opertions. Secondly, It will also make it easier when 60 starts up the new system, because all will be doing the same as we do now...you will talk to 60 initially on one frequency (not 46.26) and then switch and stay on another for the duration. The biggest complaint people will make is they cannot hear what is going on anymore, and that will be true. We have, in part, solved this by moving to UHF pages with channel D set up as our private frequency, but it will take time to purchase enough for all FF's.

I hope this answered your question

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Steve, great topic.

Some of the things you are bringing up are valid points. Valid agency specific points that many from what I have seen and operate with still have not.

There should be no "order" to switch to a "fireground" channel. That should be a written SOG that all units switch to their appropriate fireground channel upon arrival. No confusion. No "missed orders." This is where the fine Westchester system again causes a bog down. Most other systems where the county has control of the system, directs units to the appropriate working channel when units arrive and are enroute. "All units on the scene or responding to 123 Main St. switch to channel 3 upon arrival."

In addition, I have always stated that I think that the choice of calling them "fireground" channels was a poor choice. Its almost like out of site out of mind type pyschology. I would have used "tactical" or "working" channels. They are for all incidents...not just fires. With calling them "fireground" I have had officers imply that they are for "fireground" operations. Why would you not want to get off the main operating channel immediately? How many have read the NIOSH LODD reports to see that not being on a separate operating channel for operations caused confusion and missed emergency transmissions.