Hackley Fire In Retrospect

[calhobs 110]

This post was removed due to the fact it turned into paid vs volly issue, which is a problem but i feel it should not be discussed on this thread, i do not see how this turned in to the following. Just remember this started as a thank you from Hackley School to the departments that were at the fire. (Seth has reposted the article futher down)

Edited August 17, 2007 by calhobs

[RescueKujo 130]

Hackley School to send notes, checks of thanks to firefighters

Elmsford Fire Chief Mike Eannazzo said a donation was the last thing he would have expected from the private school, considering its tremendous and costly loss.

I agree. But a nice gesture none the less. Way to go Hackley School.

[Guest Chip025]

Thats very nice but could someone please tell me why career departments, besides Fairview which isn't on the thank you list,

weren't called? White Plains, Hartsdale, Greenville are all closer then most of the Depts called. This isn't the only time. It seems that when a fire occurs in a Vol Dept only vol depts are called in no matter how far away. That leads to a lot of delayed response. For the Hackley fire you heard depts being toned out more then once because they didn't have manpower to go. Hartsdale which is a combination department is even in Tarrytown's Battalion. So much for Training and working together.

[Monty 35]

Thats very nice but could someone please tell me why career departments, besides Fairview which isn't on the thank you list,

weren't called? White Plains, Hartsdale, Greenville are all closer then most of the Depts called. This isn't the only time. It seems that when a fire occurs in a Vol Dept only vol depts are called in no matter how far away. That leads to a lot of delayed response. For the Hackley fire you heard depts being toned out more then once because they didn't have manpower to go. Hartsdale which is a combination department is even in Tarrytown's Battalion. So much for Training and working together.

I agree with the sentiment expressed here - but as discussed in one of the posting on the Putnam County ALS topic it should be mutual. I don't even know if there are mutual aid agreements in place - I suspect there are but I don't think they get exercised very often around here.

As firefighters, I'm sure almost all of us are happy to get involved in these big ones - whether career or volunteer, but there are definitely some, especially the monday morning quarterbacks that do bring up the politics of career vs. volunteer.

[x635 4,066]

Thats very nice but could someone please tell me why career departments, besides Fairview which isn't on the thank you list,

weren't called? White Plains, Hartsdale, Greenville are all closer then most of the Depts called. This isn't the only time. It seems that when a fire occurs in a Vol Dept only vol depts are called in no matter how far away. That leads to a lot of delayed response. For the Hackley fire you heard depts being toned out more then once because they didn't have manpower to go. Hartsdale which is a combination department is even in Tarrytown's Battalion. So much for Training and working together.

One word. Egos. My following comments are from my observations 14 years in both the volunteer and career firefighting service, and fire service dispatch. Not a knock on Tarrytown, but the Hackley incident illustrates BOTH what's right AND what's wrong here in Late 2007 Westchester County, where not much has changed-ever.

Career department's don't usually call volunteer departments because they are not assured of what they're getting. There's no standard for volunteer firefighters or departments, nor a minimum staffing requirment. Not a knock on the volunteers at all, there are some excellent ones out there. However, when you call for career firefighters, you know what you are getting because they have to adhere to certain, stricter standards.

Volunteer departments don't call career department's because the career departments don't call them, and egos on BOTH sides prevent all of us from meeting one standard, therefore being able to work together. Until we can all come to some sort of agreement, and put egos aside, there will be two fire services in this county. It's really, really sad. Also, it's been said to me that volunteers don't want to be bossed around or intimidated by "paid guys", which I feel is a ridulous notion.

There is absolutely NO REASOn why they county can't set standards for staffing, training, and responses, and set up a system where the nonsense and behavior that occurs in this county would not be tolerated.

I know I'm in this because I enjoy helping people. However, the more and more I see, a lot of firefighters are in this to help themselves.

I do however feel that some departments were called from distances so they didn't strip Westchester of fire protection.

[NYMedic37 22]

EMS was there too. Why not thank them too?

[ajsbear 11]

Some of those departments that are further away than Fairview, Hartsdale and WP were called for TANKERS. The career departments do not have any. How many and who's Tankers were there? I know Croton, Continental Village, Millwood all had then there,

[huzzie59 75]

Once again, a positive thread gets turned around to vollies vs career.

[RescueKujo 130]

Once again, a positive thread gets turned around to vollies vs career.

While it may not belong in this thread, it is a very legitimate question. On any working fire, why are the closest available units being leapfrogged? Get the most appropriate units to the fire ASAP! And this isn't just back east. Look at the thread regarding the Contra Costa County FD LODD in California. There's a question about this very topic being investigated regarding 2 CAREER departments.

Here's the article regarding the CCCFD LODD's..

Contra Costa County LODD Article

Edited August 17, 2007 by RescueKujo

[mfc442 3]

Some of those departments that are further away than Fairview, Hartsdale and WP were called for TANKERS. The career departments do not have any. How many and who's Tankers were there? I know Croton, Continental Village, Millwood all had then there,

ajsbear, just to update your information, Millwood was not called there with tanker 15 or anything else. for that matter Basically Yorktown and Millwood were the only ones in the northern Westchester area that I know of not dispatched. Assuming that they (60 control) wanted to keep something free in case of a 2nd call requiring tankers

[x635 4,066]

So lets all take a deep breath and get off the paid vs volly bullshit.

So, you're suggesting that we all pretend like this problem doesn't exist, and not use this incident as a learning tool?

I disagree, a major fire such as this should be closely scrutinized, no matter how good of a job that was done, so that we can find things to improve on so next time the operations are that much better.

And, it's not PAID vs. VOLLY, it's about something called FIREFIGHTING! Those people who want to make it into a Paid vs. Volunteer issue are the ones causing the divide, the ones talking about how we can work out ways to work together better are true firefighters who are actually in it to help people, not their egos.

If all a department wants is a pat on the back and a puff of the egotistical line "we did a great job", and to be lauded by the public, then they should also be open to critisism. In this business, if you expect to fight a major fire and then strut your stuff and be superstars, and don't pick apart and learn from the incidents- part of that is listenting to your peers- then you should quit, because one of our strengths is being able to learn and improve with each incident.

[x635 4,066]

this thread should not be tanited by what ifs, its a palin simple thank you.

This thread isn't tainted at all. If firefighters want to accept thank you's and donations from the community, then they deserve to know that they are getting the best service possible. Hackley is a school, and what better way to reflect on this incident then to learn from it?

I know this thread was to note the "Thank Yous", but personally I could care less- that's not what I'm here for. I want to do the best I can for people, and I HATE people who are afraid of discussing the problems, because they can't do anything but stand by their prejudices, bias, and egos. We are NEVER going to get anywhere sweeping this issue under the rug, and I would (unrealistically) hope that the Hackley School fire would be a turning point and use the leverage of the incident to change things. But I guess all people want is pats on the back.

And by the way, although I think the departments should return the donations to Hackley and tell them to apply it to a sprinkler system for the new building, I hope the departments recieving the donations put the money to good use- training, equipment or donating to one of the under-equipped departments in the battered Hurricane Katrina/Rita areas. As fortunate as we are financially in this area, we should pass on the wealth.

To clarify again, I'm not saying the department's didn't do a kick-ass job, I'm saying we all need to use these incidents for more leverage to change things (SUCH AS TO PROMOTE THE IMPORTANCE OF SPRINKLER LAWS, LIGHTENTING PROTECTION AND FIRE ALARM SYSTEMS, ETC!!!!).

[Guest]

EMS was there too. Why not thank them too?

cuz no one cares.... did u really not know the answer to that question?!? lol

[Guest partyrock]

Would a career dept even go to a volunteer incident where they would be working side by side with the volleys? I'm not talking about collapse rescue, hazmat, or any other specialty service, I'm talking about a structure fire. It seems the reasons for not calling them to your district would also be reasons not to go to their district. If they aren't trained well enough or can't get enough guys out then it seems you'd be putting your members at risk. The average paid dept in Westchester, what are they sending on a mutual aid truck (I hope its more than a chauffeur and ff) or engine? Why don't paid depts reach out to the volleys that are known to turn out? I'll bet the volleys are willing to call the paid but aren't going to call someone who isn't going to call them. I worked several tours with volleys after Sept 11, and they were completely professional and appeared to be more than capable firefighters.

[x635 4,066]

cuz no one cares.... did u really not know the answer to that question?!? lol

That's seriously another issue. Someone should write a letter to the editor, reconizing that trained emergency medical personel were on scene. During these large incidents, the Fire Department always gets the glory and EMS, there to support the firefighters and the victims, is always left in the shadows. Again, this incident should be studied to see how the EMS response was, and how it could be better in the future. Who cares about EMS- obviously not the politicians or the press- how can we change that?

There's a lesson from this incident.

[Guest]

Hackley is a school, and what better way to reflect on this incident then to learn from it?

I want to do the best I can for people, and I HATE people who are afraid of discussing the problems, because they can't do anything but stand by their prejudices, bias, and egos. We are NEVER going to get anywhere sweeping this issue under the rug, and I would (unrealistically) hope that the Hackley School fire would be a turning point and use the leverage of the incident to change things. But I guess all people want is pats on the back.

And by the way, although I think the departments should return the donations to Hackley and tell them to apply it to a sprinkler system for the new building, I hope the departments recieving the donations put the money to good use- training, equipment or donating to one of the under-equipped departments in the battered Hurricane Katrina/Rita areas. As fortunate as we are financially in this area, we should pass on the wealth.

...Seth for President!! ...or County Executive!

[Guest]

That's seriously another issue. Someone should write a letter to the editor, reconizing that trained emergency medical personel were on scene. During these large incidents, the Fire Department always gets the glory and EMS, there to support the firefighters and the victims, is always left in the shadows. Again, this incident should be studied to see how the EMS response was, and how it could be better in the future. Who cares about EMS- obviously not the politicians or the press- how can we change that?

There's a lesson from this incident.

does anyone even know the ems agencies that were there???

[x635 4,066]

Here's the article that was the start of this thread.

Hackley School to send notes, checks of thanks to firefighters

By REBECCA BAKER

THE JOURNAL NEWS

(Original publication: August 17, 2007)

TARRYTOWN - The Hackley School will be sending thank-you notes and donations to nearly two dozen fire departments that battled an inferno at the private prep school earlier this month.

Hundreds of firefighters from central and northern Westchester and even a unit from Rockland County spent more than 10 hours battling the Aug. 4 blaze on the Benedict Avenue campus. Their quick response and exhaustive efforts to contain the raging fire saved the rest of the school from further damage.

Hackley Headmaster Walter Johnson said he will mail formal thank-you letters to each of the departments who responded to the fire, which gutted the 33,000-volume Kaskel Library and the school's technology center. A bolt of lightning is believed to have sparked the blaze at the 104-year-old library building, which did not have sprinklers.

Johnson said each thank-you letter will contain a financial contribution but would not say for how much. No amount, he said, could appropriately reimburse the firefighters for their hard work and courage.

"It's a symbolic contribution," he said.

Elmsford Fire Chief Mike Eannazzo said a donation was the last thing he would have expected from the private school, considering its tremendous and costly loss.

"It's humbling and unexpected," he said. "We were just there to do a job. Like every other department, we're there to save lives and protect property. It's an extremely generous gesture."

Hackley also will send copies of the thank-you notes to each village mayor or town supervisor whose department responded to the fire, Johnson said.

Meanwhile, Johnson said, crews are working double shifts to get the campus ready for classes, which resume Sept. 4.

Crews are now starting to remove the pile of rubble that once was Goodhue Memorial Hall. The stone shell of the 104-year-old building survived, but its roof, wall and all of its contents were destroyed.

Crews also are working to replace broken windows, repair damaged ceilings and walls, and install new carpeting in Raymond Hall, an adjacent classroom building that suffered smoke and water damage.

Alumni, parents and other Hackley supporters already have donated tens of thousands of dollars to the school's rebuilding efforts.

The day of the fire, Hackley sent an e-mail to its supporters, including former students and parents about the fire and a restoration fund, but Johnson said the school has not actively solicited contributions.

Johnson said insurance should cover much of the reconstruction costs, estimated to be well over $1 million.

The school, on a 285-acre campus, started out as a boys Unitarian school and is now nonsectarian and co-educational, with 800 students in grades K-12.

Hackley's heroesList of area fire departments that responded to or assisted with the Aug. 4 fire of Goodhue Memorial Hall at the Hackley School:

Archville, Ardsley, Armonk, Briarcliff Manor, Continental Village, Croton-on-Hudson, Dobbs Ferry, Elmsford, Hastings-on-Hudson, Hawthorne, Irvington, Mamaroneck Village, Mount Kisco, Ossining, Pleasantville, Pocantico Hills, Sleepy Hollow, Tarrytown, Thornwood, Valhalla, Yorktown, Nyack

Source: The Hackley School

[Future Fireman 4]

Egos, that's Bull$%^&! People need to learn to put ASIDE Their egos and make the descision, what's the closer dept that can respond for mutual aid. Thereby reducing response time, even if the dept right next to yours is volly and you're career.

Also, action needs to be taken on this issue, does anyone else feel that all the Depts. should sit down and get over their egos. Just talking on this forum will really not solve anything unless somebody reads from here and LEARNS to put aside their ego. Actions speak louder than words.

Thank you, I will now go back into my corner and off my stepstool.

Mike

[Guest Chip025]

Would a career dept even go to a volunteer incident where they would be working side by side with the volleys? I'm not talking about collapse rescue, hazmat, or any other specialty service, I'm talking about a structure fire. It seems the reasons for not calling them to your district would also be reasons not to go to their district. If they aren't trained well enough or can't get enough guys out then it seems you'd be putting your members at risk. The average paid dept in Westchester, what are they sending on a mutual aid truck (I hope its more than a chauffeur and ff) or engine? Why don't paid depts reach out to the volleys that are known to turn out? I'll bet the volleys are willing to call the paid but aren't going to call someone who isn't going to call them. I worked several tours with volleys after Sept 11, and they were completely professional and appeared to be more than capable firefighters.

This wasn't a paid vol thing it was a statement about how certain departments were skipped and it is NOT only this incident. It also has nothing to do with hurt feelings. Its about would the public be thanking the fire departments if they knew that the closest resources weren't called? This incident the departments did a great job. But the mutual aid excluded resources for no conceivable reason. It wasn't about skipping over for coverage. We all know that there is a problem with some vol companies calling in career Firefighters. Now I remind you that Greenville, Hartsdale, Fairview and Scarsdale are all Combination Depts. I also mentioned the Battalian system, these same combo departments train with the all volunteer departments, and paid and career attend the drills.

In answer to your question yes paid men will respond to any call. Do these departments call volunteer companies for mutual aid yes they do some are automatic 2nd alarm coverage assignments and 3rd alarm to the scene.

Now does it make sense to anyone that if there is a fire in Dobbs Ferry or Ardsley , Elmsford, Hawthorne and Valhalla are called when they have to drive past Fairview and Hartsdale the answer is NO and its about time its addressed.

[ajsbear 11]

I look at the list of who was there,

Archville, Ardsley, Armonk, Briarcliff Manor, Continental Village, Croton-on-Hudson, Dobbs Ferry, Elmsford, Hastings-on-Hudson, Hawthorne, Irvington, Mamaroneck Village, Mount Kisco, Ossining, Pleasantville, Pocantico Hills, Sleepy Hollow, Tarrytown, Thornwood, Valhalla, Yorktown, Nyack

And i know some were farther away but I will stand on the fact it was tankers, Continental Village is a good 20 plus minutes but as called in for a tanker. Croton w/Tanker 10, Pleasantvills, T57 and Pocantico Hills Tanker 12, I also saw Eng 175 from Fairview (career) so that shoots holes in the Career vs. Vollie issue at the Hackly fire.

Edited August 17, 2007 by ajsbear

[Truck4 48]

Two objective points to remember in this thread:

-There are career departments in this county that do not provide mutual aid to other career departments.

-There are volunteer departments that skip the closest neighboring companies in thier mutual aid plans.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

You can't go any further east then Port Chester who sent a volly eng and a utillty to hackley or you will be taken on water.

[firecapt32 282]

I may be mistaken and correct me if I am wrong but the Fairview eng was there because they requested the Foam unit and I do believe that a eng goes along with the county foam unit.

Is it time to look into the "mutual aid " system again.? I have to say I think the Hackley fire was a little over kill on the mutual aid. but I wasn't there. So I am monday morning quarterbacking a week or 2 later.

No one was hurt seriously--its only a building--the fire is out

[Guest]

I look at the list of who was there,

Archville, Ardsley, Armonk, Briarcliff Manor, Continental Village, Croton-on-Hudson, Dobbs Ferry, Elmsford, Hastings-on-Hudson, Hawthorne, Irvington, Mamaroneck Village, Mount Kisco, Ossining, Pleasantville, Pocantico Hills, Sleepy Hollow, Tarrytown, Thornwood, Valhalla, Yorktown, Nyack

And i know some were farther away but I will stand on the fact it was tankers, Continental Village is a good 20 plus minutes but as called in for a tanker. Croton w/Tanker 10, Pleasantvills, T57 and Pocantico Hills Tanker 12, I also saw Eng 175 from Fairview (career) so that shoots holes in the Career vs. Vollie issue at the Hackly fire.

but which agencies were ems??

[Guest Chip025]

Two objective points to remember in this thread:

-There are career departments in this county that do not provide mutual aid to other career departments.

-There are volunteer departments that skip the closest neighboring companies in thier mutual aid plans.

As far as the career not going to career is because the Dept that they refuse to go to abuses the Mutual aid sysytem. They would not call back any firefighters on overtime when they had a fire. They would also release their members if it was the end of their shift while a fire was going on and rely on the mutual aid companies. So there is a reason.

Now NOBODY sees a problem with calling Portchester Are we kidding.

And I'm sure the public would fully accept the reason " Well They Don't call us" said in a whiney voice of course

[HFD201 0]

I may be mistaken and correct me if I am wrong but the Fairview eng was there because they requested the Foam unit and I do believe that a eng goes along with the county foam unit.

Just to clarify E-175 was there prior to the request for the foam trailer.

This isn't a paid vs. vollie dispute, this situation does call into the question of why have a Battalion system if dept's in the same Battalion are being skipped and for example if I heard right on the radio a ladder from Mohegan was requested to stand by in someones quarters and it took nearly 45 minutes to arrive at such location. Why skip Hartsdale for example who is in the same Battalion as Tarrytown or Greenville, or Scarsdale (different battalion) but also who are less than 5-10 minutes away.

[calhobs 110]

Lets not forget a few years ago when a certian fire department at the southern tip of westchester bypassed 3-5 Volly Departments along the sawmill to call white plains to a fire and ended up losing almost a whole block. So it works both ways folks. So now we all bitched about this, now where is the learning from this, as Seth said before lets learn from this so lets hear some solutions now no more bitching, because that is what all this is now. We can sit here and complain about why wasnt this dept. called and that one was called. Lets talk about how we can fix this and all play nicely

Edited August 17, 2007 by calhobs

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I am not sure was PD on scene? If so are they going to get a donation? PROB not because LE never gets anything. BOO HOO for us. I know you all prob did a great job but do you think that you should except the donations considering you were just "DOING WHAT YOU TRAINED FOR?

[lad12derff 283]

Thats very nice but could someone please tell me why career departments, besides Fairview which isn't on the thank you list,

weren't called? White Plains, Hartsdale, Greenville are all closer then most of the Depts called. This isn't the only time. It seems that when a fire occurs in a Vol Dept only vol depts are called in no matter how far away. That leads to a lot of delayed response. For the Hackley fire you heard depts being toned out more then once because they didn't have manpower to go. Hartsdale which is a combination department is even in Tarrytown's Battalion. So much for Training and working together.

Please don't take this the wrong way on this forum but I don't want to see vollies responding to my city no matter how big the fire. Maybe they feel the same way. We have assigned members to specific rigs ( IE truckies and engine guys) not whoever jumps on the rig. We have a set IC system with accountability. Guys showing up in their cars does not help unless they come to the board and check in for assignments. This is not a vollie vs career debate it is how I feel. The 2 organizations have different outlooks on one another and will never work together.Let me go on record as saying I don't have a problem with vollies but when I go to a job I want a brother who gets paid to be watching my back not someone who just shows up when they want.