Fire Station on fire... could this be one of us?

[mikeinet 37]

http://www.thebravestonline.com/news.html?view=1&id=1587

The first few minutes are... well, rather interesting - seems like a circus show to me. I especially like it with the guy that runs with the hose starts getting overcome with smoke. Kind of makes VF's look REALLY bad?!?

It really starts cooking towards the end... imagine this 3am call??

[Guest pentax02839]

they said it was arson.do they have suspect for this?

[ny10570 745]

More than 10 minutes after discovery and More than 5 minutes after the first responding apperatus got on scene and the best they could do was an 1 3/4 for about 3 minutes. Thats f-ing embarrassing. Apparently they run with the 10x the height of the building collapse zone.

[CTFF 65]

Wow is there alot wrong in that video.

[e92l44 0]

They must go by the old adage..........When in doubt...Do Nothing!!!

[PATROL224 0]

I wonder how long it took for them to finally get water on the FIRE?

[ex-commish 490]

More than 10 minutes after discovery and More than 5 minutes after the first responding apperatus got on scene and the best they could do was an 1 3/4 for about 3 minutes. Thats f-ing embarrassing. Apparently they run with the 10x the height of the building collapse zone.

Embarassing or perhaps suspicious....

[Guest feraldan]

I saw this awhile ago on the fire helmet camera website. I immediately proceeded to show every other firefighter I know. Its absolutely amazing and a complete embarrassment to that department.

Everything from guys running around with no PPE to the chief pulling his car right up to the building and hobbling around with his SCBA like he's never thrown a pack on before. There's that one guy who pulls a hose line like its a streamer and runs into the heaviest part of the smoke with no protection. When it pans back he's keeled over coughing his a** off.

Wow.

Edited August 13, 2007 by feraldan

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

Do they use water on fire there? It appears their tactic is to wait till it burns to the ground then stomp it out with their feet.

[Scottyk107 9]

the best is when the guy yelled "Cover me! im going in for the truck" like it was a shoot out and he needed cover fire....haha

[jloftus 28]

the best is when the guy yelled "Cover me! im going in for the truck" like it was a shoot out and he needed cover fire....haha

Scotty, that could be station 1 anyday now, no rig should suffer such a death.

[Guest]

Y Couldnt they just push it out soon they got there

[grumpyff 1,159]

Y Couldnt they just push it out soon they got there

Kind of hard to push several tons...Truck itself is most likely 20,000+pounds+500 Gallons of water (8.3 pounds per gallon)+tools/equipment+hose. I did hear one member calling for a tow truck, but at that point I think it was too late.

I was also wondering why the first due engine was so far away, posssibly to leave room in case they did get the engine in the house started, but watching the video a second time, there was plenty of room to get in closer. I understand an alarm in your own house will cause emotions to run high, but It looks like all sense went out the window here.

Edited August 14, 2007 by grumpyff

[Guest]

Thanks for clearing that up, Dint know they were that heavy

[IzzyEng4 427]

Hey guys not for nothing, I do agree that there was a lot done wrong in the video but come on, think for a minute and put yourself in their shoes. One, their firehouse is on fire, their second home and their emotions are running high. Of course they are not going to think straight because they have to get the apparatus out of the bays, many member's gear is still in the firehouse, let alone all the company's personal effects. Not lets take this a different step, what if this was your firehouse or even worse, your own home. What then, do you think that you would do everything "by the book" or would you try to do something that you would do under normal circumstances?

Now, the first due engine (the one from mutual aid or the second station) could have been far out because the size of this department's district right? Since the fire wasn't discovered for 10 minutes, then it it took off and by the time dispatch was notified of it and the members rushing to the scene and finding the whole place going up, are you going to think with a level head or are you gonna s### a brick?? Me, I'll be doing the second, cause I know me and emotions, thought it should, will take over and I bet anyone they would do the same if they came across this scene as it was their own firehouse. We can't actually predict who we might act but what are you going to do with out any equipment and apparatus? Stand there and watch? I don't think so.

I'm playing devils' advocate here and want all to really think of the worst case scenario if the was your firehouse. Obviously I don't think any of us here would put ourselves in a dangerous situation but I do believe that our mind-set would be in a more rushed state where anyone of us might not be processing our thoughts right.

Now having that said, take a step back and think, don't analyze, what would you might do if you were running on pure emotions at first before you got your bearings.

I know I would be going ape-s@@@ at first.

[e92l44 0]

Although I mainly agree with you Izzy, I gotta say, that is a piss-poor argument.

You say, you're gonna do #2, and "**** a brick". Come on now, IT'S A BUILDING! A GARAGE! Loss of life in the structure is on the very low, to nil side. Sure, maybe they have spent many good times in there, and it's sad, but why not get pumped and start going to work trying to save the place?!?!

No Gear?

Set up those 4 Engines and start pumping 1000s of gallons of water thru those deckpipes into the building. 2 1/2" lines from the exterior. No gear needed. Pre-connects and interior FF'ing are out.

What do you do when you pull up and people are jumping out of a fully occupied building and holding their kids out the window? Start stretching without equipment, fumble with your mask, don't give any orders? It's your job/duty to get your emotions in check, and get to work. That's what makes good firemen and just fireman/spectators. (By no means am I implying your not a good fireman either, please don't take it that way.)

That is what these guys should've done. Look how long there are 4 Engines on the scene and not one has a handline, a LARGE CALIBER handline on this fire. At one point, you can hear someone say something about, "Deckpipe". How about it? I mean, just do something. That fire DOES NOT take off until after the arrival of those companies on the scene. You can see it in the video.

Get those emotions in check, and get to work. That's my 2-cents.

Sorry if offending anyone, in advance.

[Monty 35]

Hey guys not for nothing, I do agree that there was a lot done wrong in the video but come on, think for a minute and put yourself in their shoes. One, their firehouse is on fire, their second home and their emotions are running high. Of course they are not going to think straight because they have to get the apparatus out of the bays, many member's gear is still in the firehouse, let alone all the company's personal effects. Not lets take this a different step, what if this was your firehouse or even worse, your own home. What then, do you think that you would do everything "by the book" or would you try to do something that you would do under normal circumstances?

Now, the first due engine (the one from mutual aid or the second station) could have been far out because the size of this department's district right? Since the fire wasn't discovered for 10 minutes, then it it took off and by the time dispatch was notified of it and the members rushing to the scene and finding the whole place going up, are you going to think with a level head or are you gonna s### a brick?? Me, I'll be doing the second, cause I know me and emotions, thought it should, will take over and I bet anyone they would do the same if they came across this scene as it was their own firehouse. We can't actually predict who we might act but what are you going to do with out any equipment and apparatus? Stand there and watch? I don't think so.

I'm playing devils' advocate here and want all to really think of the worst case scenario if the was your firehouse. Obviously I don't think any of us here would put ourselves in a dangerous situation but I do believe that our mind-set would be in a more rushed state where anyone of us might not be processing our thoughts right.

Now having that said, take a step back and think, don't analyze, what would you might do if you were running on pure emotions at first before you got your bearings.

I know I would be going ape-s@@@ at first.

I'm inclined to agree with a lot of what Izzy said here. My first emotions watching this, was sadness for those guys. Yes, they don't look the most professional, but this doesn't look like a multi million firehouse. I couldn't find too much on the web about these guys, but there are many areas where the mutual aid could be 10 miles or more away. If all your gear is in the firehouse then there's not too much you can do, especially if you've got mutal aid and they don't have gear on the truck. Maybe this is an un-hydranted area with water supply problems - maybe they were drafting.

Yeah, there were a few questionable actions. In the end I didn't notice the guy in gear actually getting inside the firehouse. As for the guy inhaling the smoke - I've certainly seen departments in Westchester without turnouts being too close to the action (Admittedly not that close - not yet anyway). Hopefully they were well insured, and can get back in business soon - and maybe learn something from this (good alarm system and sprinklered building?).

[Guest seanc]

im not really going to straight up agree with anyone on this topic, but kinda go my own way and if leans one way fine. my thought is we aren't trained for a fire in our own firehouse, a lot of things need to be taken into account like all of their gear is inside, so if you see someone without gear give them a break. and yes their are rule on how to fight a garage fire, but when was the last time u parked the rig in the garage that was on fire? and last, it was their second home, I'm sure none of them wanted to just sit by as it burnt to the ground, of course they wanted to help they wanted to do what they where trained for. Last but not least, this is an excellent reason to train more, and to possibly train differently, maybe take one drill out of the year to possibly make a scenario where your department is on fire.

[Guest feraldan]

The whole thing still seriously reeks of panic to me. Everything from pulling your personal vehicle right up to the building to the only guy without PPE on running an uncharged line into a burning building.

I thought we were supposed to be trained to not do those sorts of things.

[Guest]

any other sites where i can see that video? my computer wont load it

[Guest feraldan]

Try here:

http://firehelmetcam.net/index.cfm?Section...15&titles=0

[robert benz 344]

ok i'll bite, my rig with my gear is inside the building I am sh*t out of luck there, every apparatus that did show up should have dumped his booster tank via a master stream at the interior of the building. If there are hydrants, no reason not to have large amounts of h2o in a short period of time, no hydrants, even more reason for each rig to blitz it, and give it there best shot, figuring a tanker shuttle takes time to set up.

Firehouses like anybody elses house can and will catch fire. The basics dont change.

[OnTheWheel 43]

Everyone, either Volly or Paid, has hailed themselves as "professionals" on this site at one time or another (and yes us cops too). I think the LT is right, you need to get your emotions in check and do what you have to do to get the fire out. Running around a scene in panic or driving your car to the front of the building isnt going to help anyone, THEN, we can all watch the video on here and say how stupid it all looked! I think we should be able to keep our emotions in check and get the job done, your family, house etc may rely on it and thats when your training should kick in and it should all be second nature, and maintain that "professional" image we all want. Thats why taking training seriously is important, showing up to a drill and watching from the bumper of a rig isnt training. Even heroes need to train! You fight how you train and I have seen it a million times over applied, both fire and pd, the guys who half a** train get there asses kicked one way or another (not literally all the time, but you get the point). So train like your life (and house) depend on it! And I too am not directing this at anyone, its a general statement.

[huzzie59 75]

The area of this fire is basically abandoned.

Info from some websites:

"The "Saint Louis National Stock Yards" opened in 1873 and incorporated as "National City, Illinois" in 1907. The National Stock Yards closed in 1997 after a devastating fire. As part of the closing, the estimated 50 residents of National City were evicted and the village was dissolved."

"St. Clair County Board v. Village of National City, 292 Ill. App. 3d 428, 685 N.E.2d 668, 226 Ill. Dec. 413 (5th Dist. 1997). The County Board filed a petition seeking to dissolve the village. Upon request of the Board, the United States Census Bureau conducted a special census of the village which found the village had zero inhabitants. The circuit court granted the Board's petition. The village appealed, arguing that Section 7-6-7 of the Municipal Code was misinterpreted. The village claimed that a special census could not be the basis for dissolution of a municipality when the population was determined by a preceding annual census. According to the last preceding census, National City had 57 inhabitants. Section 7-6-7 provides that any municipality with less than 50 inhabitants can be ordered to dissolve. This court found that the existence of a population of fewer than 50 could be discovered either in the last preceding federal census or through a special census. Furthermore, due to the difficulties of providing police and fire protection in small municipalities, this court found it was unreasonable to force a county to wait until the next decennial census to determine whether the population has fallen. The dissolution of National City was affirmed."

The trucks, or truck, probably didn't run. With no residents, there probably are no members to that dept.

Sad!

[grumpyff 1,159]

Izzy ,

Just to clear something up, I was not commenting on the mutual aid engines. Early on in the video an engine is shown, the one the guy with no turnout gear stretched a line from. It looked like it was set back real far from the building, farther the needed, even if the structure collapsed. Noy sure if a master stream would have done much, as most of the fire appearred to be in the rear of the structure. From the video it is unclear what was behind their house, if any apparatus could be placed there. At least mutual aid departments were called quickly.

When I was in Pleasantville, we did have an alarm in one of our buildings, D.P. Hayes Hose, up in the old Village around 1999/2000. The was some confusion at first as to which house it was, even though it was called in by one of our members who found the thermostat had melted and was smoking, if I remember correctly. Sure it was not anywhere near what this department went through, but we handled it like any other job....profesionally.

How many of us have sprinklers in our firehouses? They might have contained the fire in this case to a more manageable size, and/or protected the apparatus, but that might be best left to a discussion in another thread.

Edited August 15, 2007 by grumpyff

[Guest partyrock]

Every few years a house somewhere in the 5 boroughs lights up, and while it is stressful its still just another fire. Besides there are alot worse things to discover in the course of our duties than some lost trophies and photos. What if on a job you lost a brother, found a child, etc. We react accordingly and continue the job.

[jd783 64]

Today is the first time I watched this video NO WAY are these guys with 4-5 rigs putting this fire out If I were to pull up on this at 3am with 4eng 2trks and a rescue I would still call for additional alarms and I still see this one burning down. 1st min of the video you can see the smoke churnning and then they pan to the roof about 5-6 min in and thats roaring to, best they could have done is save the truck