NYS New FF Bailout Rope Law

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Follow the hyperlink for more info. Below is the outline for the law.

This was SIGNED INTO LAW on 8-1-07.

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A07785

A07785 Memo:

BILL NUMBER:A7785

TITLE OF BILL: An act to amend the labor law, in relation to

requiring employers to provide safety ropes and system components to

firefighters

PURPOSE:

This bill would require public employers except those in a city of one

million or more to provide firefighters with safety ropes and system

components that meet standards set forth by the National Fire

Protection Association (NFPA)

Edited August 12, 2007 by xfirefighter484x

[Guest]

Follow the hyperlink for more info. Below is the outline for the law.

This was SIGNED INTO LAW on 8-1-07.

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A07785

I wonder why they exempted NYC (the city with 1 million or more).

Edited August 12, 2007 by JaredHG

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I wonder why they exempted NYC (the city with 1 million or more).

I was kind of curios the same thing. I am wondering if it has to do anything with the fiscal issues.

Just a wild guess, I really have no idea.

[Scottyk107 9]

so departments have 60 days from Aug 1st to get the equipment. Does it mean every member or just for the on duty crew? as in they will keep them in the truck?

[RWC130 594]

Did anyone else catch this?

JUSTIFICATION:

On January 23, 2005, six New York City firefighters were caught on the

fourth floor of a burning building in he Bronx. Due to a department

order dating back to 2000, the firefighters were not equipped with

safety ropes and the accompanying equipment. Sadly, the six

firefighters were forced to jump from the building, falling four

stories to the street below. As a result, four of the firefighters

were seriously injured, and two of the firefighters, Lieutenant Curtis

W. Meyran and Firefighter John G. Bellew, died.

THEN:

PURPOSE:

This bill would require public employers except those in a city of one

million or more to provide firefighters with safety ropes and system

components that meet standards set forth by the National Fire

Protection Association (NFPA)

OK, this Bill was proposed, voted on, and passed but DOES NOT

include the very Fire Department (FDNY) that was the "JUSTIFICATION"

for this Bill?

WOW.... I am at a loss for words here.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

OK, this Bill was proposed, voted on, and passed but DOES NOT

include the very Fire Department (FDNY) that was the "JUSTIFICATION"

for this Bill?

WOW.... I am at a loss for words here.

i don't know if it has anything to do with the fact that FDNY already gave all their guys bail-out kits. At least, I thought I had heard they did shortly after this incident already.

[201/65 94]

They use the words employee and employer, so it again brings to question are volunteers employees?

[bil14ga 1]

Volunteers are considered employees of the department. This is why PESH can come asnd inspect your departments just like any career (paid) department.

[CPAGE 2]

Did anyone else catch this?

THEN:

OK, this Bill was proposed, voted on, and passed but DOES NOT

include the very Fire Department (FDNY) that was the "JUSTIFICATION"

for this Bill?

WOW.... I am at a loss for words here.

I do beleave that the city of NY has passed it's own law about this subject with a bit of a higher standard with the local unions. So this is why it bypassed the city in the state bill. This is for the replacement end and that all members of FDNY have the system. You will see some dept's only buy for the amount of scba seat they have on a rig.

Just my 2 cent's

[ex-commish 490]

They use the words employee and employer, so it again brings to question are volunteers employees?

Because we are entitled to workman comp(VFBL) and also LOSAP we are considered employees.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

If you look at most laws in NY State many of them exempt cities with a population of 1 million or more. Why it generally is that way I'm not sure and hoping someone can shed some more light on it.

Its nice to see some laws that again step up to protect firefighters. Now if we can get them to keep rolling with other significant issues, like staffing, training, position requirements, enforcement of physicals and fit testing that would also be awesome.

[ny10570 745]

NYC has no legislation requiring the issuance of bail out ropes. The department did issue a new system after Black Sunday thanks to the persistence of people like ff Cool and the ff's that designed the system. Even if NYC had tougher legislation its still no reason to exempt them. NYC's higher standard would have stood inspite of the Albany legislation.

[Remember585 815]

I must be missing it in my searches...

Can anyone tell me what the exact equipment and training requirements are, and what time frame we have?

Thanks!

[hudson144 150]

I applaud the bill however, did they forget the other half of it? Is there parts missing such as if you have members who are not interior firefighters etc. maybe it is written elsewhere? another part that i didn't see and this is a quote from a friend involved in BLACK SUNDAY-- "Its one thing if you carry a escape system its another thing if you know how to use it"! Should the survival class be mandatory to go along hand in hand here? what training will be required? Do you just issue the escape system and say "GOOD LUCK"??? Maybe it is posted somewhere else that I might have missed? A step in the right direction!

[exmrvfc 0]

Section 2 adds a new paragraph © to subdivision 4, which provides

that public employers provide firefighters with safety ropes and

system components that meet the standards, codes and recommended

practices established by the most recent edition of the NFPA 1983,

Standard for Fire Service Life Safety Ropes and System Components.

NYS left the training and type of rope system to be used up to the NFPA 1983 standard on Life Safety Rope systems. This way, if the standard changes, NYS does not have to change the law. It is up to the Department to stay current with the standard. They purposely left the technical details to those that know them.

[exmrvfc 0]

October 1st is two weeks away. What are the departments doing to be curernt with the Law?

[jloftus 28]

Local 107 Mt. Vernon has received a grant from Gary Pretlow to gets these systems out to our members, now we have to donate them to the city for liabity reasons, and they have to provide the training. If this system is a intergrated one then what we have is not gonna cut it. Im sure when the training is provided the headline will read Mount Vernon providing a safety system to protect firefighters. If our union leadership did not go out and get us something we would not see this system for years. Example : Tower Ladder with NO escape ladder.

As for costs on this system: NO city should use that excuse, outside bussiness has to deal with standards all the time and comply. Why are the city's always a day late and a dollar short.

[RDUNC67 1]

A couple of things had come to mind on this subject and one was answered about whether or not volunteer FD's were in fact employees and this applied to them... the other concern i have is that how this law, the way that it is written is being interpreted by many FD's in a very broad manner, i have seen devices that cover evry angle of the items that are mentioned and the other side of that is the " 35' of Escape rope and a carabiner will do", it just so happens that i also sell Fire Equipment and we are dealing with this almost half of evry day since it came out, i'm afraid that some FD's are going to buy something for everybody and not even be close to meeting the standard and what would be the point of that. On another note, a major concern has been funding, if 60 days is the date (Oct 1), then depending on the size of the dept. and how they choose to do this (right or wrong) they could be looking at some serious un-budgeted $$$. I did hear a good line from a Chief though when we discussed this. " I'll just send the invoice to Gov. Spitzer" ... ALS can you shed any light on this...

[Remember585 815]

I must be missing it in my searches...

Can anyone tell me what the exact equipment and training requirements are, and what time frame we have?

Thanks!

Bump....never really got a reply nor the info I am looking for, thanks.

[firecapt32 282]

It sounds like there will be a lot of survival training going on this fall. Just be safe doing it.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Let's just say we hope there will be a lot of survival training this fall.

Just cancelled my survival course last week because only 3 students showed up. Very disappointing and frustrating for those 3 brothers who showed up looking to learn.

585...I know your looking for more..but there is no actual answer I can surmise for you other then it should be coordinated, giving by a knowledgable and credible person and cover the use of whatever device, devices or systems you use by anyone using it as well.

[robert benz 344]

if a "new system" is to be put in place, IE: belts, decent devices, etc who is gonna train the trainers??? As an sfi we only teach / train using a body belay, which in my personal opinion, works fine, but i have only used it in training.

[firefighter36 52]

I believe that to be compliant with the law, all a department has to do is be in the process of purchasing these systems. I am not sure of the time frame that exisits to actually purchase, and then implement the system.

As for training, would that be provided by each manufacturer if systems and processes are proprietary to a manufacturer?

[DOC22 1]

Bump....never really got a reply nor the info I am looking for, thanks.

EFFECTIVE DATE:

Sixty days after having become law.Which we know happened on 1 August 2007

[robert benz 344]

important info about the bailout rope law !!!!!

-----Original Message-----

From: Tom LaBelle [mailto:tlabelle@nysfirechiefs.com]

Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 2:09 PM

To: Henry Campbell; Adrian Pilliod; Alfonso Varlaro; Alvon Macauley; Andrew Mancusi; Arthur Lewis; Barry Sens; Bernard Lee; Bonnie Maney; Brian La Flure; Bruce Heberer; Carl Amato; Charles Hungerford; Charles Hajduk; Charles Hammon; Chet Garrison; Christian Delisio; Christopher Morabito; Craig Zitek; Dale Smith; Daniel Lane; Daniel Schwertfeger; David Beaudoin; David Hardman; David Winzig; Debbie Boniface; Donald Chandler; Donald Corkery; Donald Fredericy; Donald Jaquish; Donald Magin; Douglas Staley; Edward Wright; Edward Busch; Edward Di Monda; Edward Kehn; Edward Saunders; Edward Tremblay; Ellwyn Van Vorce; Elton Cappiello; Francis Burns; Frank Mazza; Frank Sylvester; Fred Theadore; G. Michael Godfrey ; Gary Nestle; George Farley; George Maney; George Rivers; Gerald Diskin; Gerard Raab; Glen Miller; Glenn Burton; Gregory Anderson; Gregory Brunelle; Harold Phillips; Harold Harvey; Harold Smith; Henry Campbell; Henry Wehner; Ivan Wager; Jack Henderson; James Hare; James Kavanaugh; James King; James Martin; James Premo; James Staffo; James Wright; John Buchanan; John Cobb; John Haley; John Miller; John Scott; John Sroka; John Steger; John Tighe; John Williams; Joni Ensell; Joseph Battiste; Joseph De Francisco; Joseph Morabito; Judith Schmitz; Julius Leone; Keith McNally; Kelly Donoghue; Kenneth Pienkowski; Kevin Niedermaier; Larry Smith; Lee Shurtleff; Leon Tucholski; Leon VanWie; Lew Darrow; Malcolm Jones; Mark Sheline; Marvin Lemery; Mary Hanlon; Mary Lou Montgomery; Matthew Brisley; Michael Podolec; Michael Volpe; Michael Magin; Michael Murphy; Michael Rankin; Michael Smith; Mike McEvoy; Neil McNeight; Norman Knapp; Owen Magee; Paul Melfi; Paul Schonewolf; Peter Hosey; Primo Biscaro; R. Scott Ewing; Ralph DeBolt; Kiernan, Raymond; Raymond Morgan; Raymond Thatcher; Raymond White; Richard Akey; Richard Armistead; Richard Cary; Richard Giuliani; Richard Messina; Richard Nemier; Robert Doremus; Robert Kloepfer; Robert Burke; Robert Holley; Robert Parese; Robert Welch; Robert Zysk; Ronald Barz; Ronald Garrison; Ronald Dahulich; Ronald Johnson; Roy Althiser; Scott Premo; Stephen Wisely; Steven Myers; Steven Klein; Susan Revoir; Ted Rosko; Terence Hannigan; Thomas Bierds; Thomas Kennedy; Thomas LaBelle; Thomas Wutz; Timothy Boel; Timothy Dahulich; Vincent Kelly; Walter Geidel; Walter Eck; Walter Schoonmaker; Warren Rathke; William Dark; William Kennedy; William Owen; William Palmer; Jim Hannigan; Clinton Soemann; Laurence Vaughan

Subject: New Rope requirements

First of STOP, if you buying equipment to be incompliance with this new regulation don’t, nobody, and I mean nobody knows what it it going to entail as of 9/18/07 and likely will not for at least another week or two. There are several questions that I’ll try and answer in this note and more will follow but please share this with anyone interested.

Question #1 HOW DID THIS EVEN HAPPEN? I certainly can’t speak for other associations but I can tell you what happened with NYSAFC. We had discussed the bill with the sponsors for three years, letting them know our concerns. Up until this year those concerns weren’t addressed but the bill wasn’t becoming law either. Also in the last few years the association has had to cut costs, this has hurt our government affairs program dramatically, this is part of the reason for the recent dues increase, there must be a voice of sanity in Albany, but it costs money to make that voice heard and to keep people informed. The bill was passed but both houses waited until the days right after the NYSAFC conference. NYSAFC staff take all of our computers and files to the show and it takes a few days to bring things back on line, by the time we had everything set up here the bills had already passed. Although many associations wrote letters of opposition to the bill as well as opposition from the Department of State, Department of Labor and the Division of Budget, Governor Spitzer signed the bill anyway. It is also clear that some sponsors believed that this would only apply to career fire personnel. The largest problem is that we now have a LAW that says what kind of equipment to carry. This is a very dangerous precedent as it is much harder to change a law then a regulation. It is also worth pointing out that the Department of Labor had unofficially stated that this type of regulation was going to happen with or without a law sometime in the near future.

Question #2 DOES THIS APPLY TO VOLUNTEERS? Although some of the sponsors didn’t mean for it to, which is a bad policy in general as fire doesn’t care if your drawing a salary, the Department of Labor has no choice but to consider all firefighters “employees” and so yes it does apply to career and volunteer alike.

Question #3 WE ALL KNOW THIS STARTED FROM AN FDNY FIRE, WHY IS THE CITY OF NEW YORK EXEMPT? There are two reasons. Exemption for NYC is standard in virtually all bills in the legislature in Albany. The language used was very common and is often thrown in without any real thought, second there is a belief that since the City had already addressed this issue they didn’t need a regulation. It is worth pointing out however that the City had issued bail rope before and then recalled it without replacing it.

Question #4 ARE THERE SYSTEMS THAT ARE ALREADY APPROVED? Although you can find systems that already meet the NFPA requirements, that does not mean they meet whatever new regulation the state will create. It appears that the new regulation, which can be seen an commented on at the following site: http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotect...DOSH_INDEX.shtm will allow each AHJ to create an assessment of bail out risks and choose an appropriate solution. The solution must be NFPA compliant, but it doesn’t appear that it necessarily needs to be more than safety rope, and compliant carabineers. But again, don’t buy anything until you have an actual final regulation in front of you. Also recognize that the draft will also be reviewed by Governor Spitzer’s office and it is unclear what their desire might be on this matter.

NYSAFC is working on a statewide webcast that we’ll be announcing this week to bring folks up to speed on this issue.

--

Did you know you can get the latest fire service news at <www.nysfirechiefs.com>

Thomas L. LaBelle

Executive Director

NYS Association of Fire Chiefs

1670 Columbia Turnpike

Castleton, NY 12033

Phone: (518) 477-2631

Fax: (518) 477-4430

E-mail: tlabelle@nysfirechiefs.com

[Guest]

Section 1 of the bill amends subdivision 1 by defining "system

components" as life safety harnesses, belts, ascending devices,

carbiners, descent control devices, rope grab devices and snap-links.

So maybe someone can help me out here. Their saying that we are to provide all of the above (a.k.a the systems issued to firefighters in the city on ladder companies) and not a 35 foot piece of rescue rope?? Just curious as it was a little missleading and I thought it was in regards to rescue ropes and carabiners and not all of the above. Thanks

[Monty 35]

important info about the bailout rope law !!!!!

.....

Interesting article, although it took me a couple of times reading through it to get the picture - not the most elegant piece of writing Also, seems like bit of a case of sour grapes that NYSAFC wasn't more involved in the process - and that maybe there had been an end run .....

Also an interesting insight in to the way politics works.

Finally, and not too surprisingly, the impression I get is, just ignore the law.

Wont be the first time that happens (OSHA training, Infectious diseases, Hazmat training etc)

[exmrvfc 0]

if a "new system" is to be put in place, IE: belts, decent devices, etc who is gonna train the trainers??? As an sfi we only teach / train using a body belay, which in my personal opinion, works fine, but i have only used it in training.

Hi Bob,

From my understanding, the bailout rope and carabiner are OK as long as they are NFPA compliant. No system, or harness is favored over another. If anyone wanted to buy the FDNY Petzl EXO system, the buyer is first required to attend a MANDATORY training class before they can get it. The class is currently taught in Rockland County by Fireground Tech which is an independant training company that is run by some FDNY members.

Everyone needs to remember that OSHA (NY follows OSHA through PESH) requires that a department cannot put a firefighter into a situation that they are not trained for. So if you are a Chief and are handing out ropes to your members, you better make sure they are trained on the proper use to avoid liability. I find it hard to believe that so few people signed up for the Survival class in light of the current requirement to fit everyone with ropes.