Putnam Legislature votes to cut ALS

[Goose 188]

Anybody else sense a lawsuit coming from a death that could've been prevented with ALS?

Mike

ALS services are still being provided, they will not terminate until October. Wether or not the county has a legal obligation to provide the service because of the fact it started a county system 10+ years ago is the thing i am most curious about. I would think that once a standard is adopted at a govt. level that you simply can't roll that back.

[Oswegowind 17]

When I heard this on the radio (WHUD) this morning, I just couldn't believe that they opted to vote down spending money to provide a public safety to their constituents. They have no right to go against what is needed and that is emergency medical care at the highest level in the timeliest manner! They are doing a disservice to the Community as a whole and should be impeached. Instead they should have voted to come up with a plan to fix the problem, cut from other agencies that do not need the money right now, and pushed to continue giving the people what they pay for. This appears to be a panic reaction that has not been thought out properly. Completely ridiculous and completely wrong. BTW there are a good many houses for sale in the Town of Cortlandt and surrounding neighborhoods for those who don't want to risk living in Putnam anymore...

[RWC130 594]

I don't wanna start a rumor but.....

Westchester County Police Aviation unit will be taking over ALS for Putnam County.

Police Officer/Paramedic with ALS gear will go up in the Chopper which will depart WC Airport.

Once the WCPD Chopper is over the scene the Police Officer/Paramedic will be lowered with rope

and onto the scene.

In the event the Ambulance is unable to come to a compete stop for the intercept Chris192 will be trained

by TJ Hooker to jump onto the moving Ambulance.

Now THAT my friends is a "FLY CAR" lol

OK, on a serious note. It's a total DISGRACE that Putnam voted to stop

ADVANCED LIFE SUPPORT!

[PC415 1]

Well I will def. be going to the next legi meeting provided I am not working a "C" line. Just remember 1 thing, the way the legislature works - If Putnam ALS is not on the agenda at the meeting you are attending you are NOT going to be allowed to talk about it. They have a rule that you can only talk about things that are on the agenda for that evening. If you start to deviate they shut off your mic and tell you to stay on agenda items or sit down. Oh - Freedom of speech you say??? Not when your addressing YOUR public officials.

We all need to band together

Edited August 9, 2007 by PC415

[bil14ga 1]

One can only think that if the county gets rid of the ALS program, that the private ambulance companies will again show up. Instead of a having a planned out EMS system, Putnam County can go back to the "Mother, Juggs, and Speed" days of EMS. Only the more populated sections of the county will get coverage. The sections of the county that really need the coverage will be ingnored or get less than adequate coverage. Sorry to see this happen. It really looked like Putnam was headed in the right direction and could be a program that other counties (especially Dutchess) could look at.

[MerlinMedic 5]

I am glad that I live much further north than Putnam, but the issue isn't just in Putnam County, it is all over. EMS costs $$$. Taxpayers are in near revolt now due to unfunded mandates. Some peole have said some good ideas: go to the next meeting, make sure it is on the agenda (at least in my hill billy town if they tried that they would be run out of town.). Sit down with some of your county reps before the meeting & talk to them. This called lobbying. It can be something as informal as a sit down at the local coffee shop, or a meeting in their office with a group of EMS persnal. You should bring some fire also as fire has much more clout than EMS in most areas.

Good Luck.

[WAS967 97]

Police Officer/Paramedic with ALS gear will go up in the Chopper which will depart WC Airport.

Once the WCPD Chopper is over the scene the Police Officer/Paramedic will be lowered with rope

and onto the scene.

Due to further cutbacks, the helo will be left it "auto-hover" mode and equipped with an electric winch. The Pilot (who is also a medic) will lower himself down to the scene, perform "vital vision" while loading the patient into the basket and then be lifted up with the patient to the helicopter all while it magically hovers overhead unmanned. ALS will be performed enroute to the hospital with the medic using his arms for the ALS and his feet to fly. (One can imagine the position required for same). Pictures to come soon.

[Guest]

What my question is that can the DOH allow Putnam County operate with out ALS? Being an officer in my department, if this actually follows through and there is no more ALS as of 10/1, then fire departments and VAC's are going to have to look to contact ALS services. I will definatly be at the meeting with pc420 and let them know that we are not going to rest on this issue. What is Putnam County thinking??? I think its time to move to dutchess or westchester county.

PC303/C92

[helicopper 1,050]

I don't wanna start a rumor but.....

Westchester County Police Aviation unit will be taking over ALS for Putnam County.

Police Officer/Paramedic with ALS gear will go up in the Chopper which will depart WC Airport.

Once the WCPD Chopper is over the scene the Police Officer/Paramedic will be lowered with rope

and onto the scene.

In the event the Ambulance is unable to come to a compete stop for the intercept Chris192 will be trained

by TJ Hooker to jump onto the moving Ambulance.

Now THAT my friends is a "FLY CAR" lol

OK, on a serious note. It's a total DISGRACE that Putnam voted to stop

ADVANCED LIFE SUPPORT!

TJ Hooker? You're dating yourself a little bit here, RWC!!!

We don't even need to use the rope, the new helicopter has a shiny new hoist just itchin' to be used.

Thanks for the laugh!!!

[grantnet10 1]

No one will need ALS support now that they don't serve donuts at the senior centers anymore.

http://www.wnbc.com/news/13856793/detail.html

Doughnut Dispute Angers Seniors In Putnam County

Putnam County has decided to stop handing out free doughnuts at senior centers because of health worries, but the elderly patrons say they're old enough to make their own decisions.

The county north of New York City has decided to stop serving the sweet treats at the county's five nutrition centers. The Office for the Aging has been getting free "day old" doughnuts from local doughnut shops, delis and stores, and then passing them out at the centers.

Nutritionists have questioned if the doughnuts are good for the over-65 set, which is susceptible to high blood pressure, heart disease and diabetes.

The issue has been turned over to the Putnam County Legislature, which will debate in the coming weeks if the free doughnuts should be given out.

Legislator Sam Olivierio, who heads the legislature's Health Committee, said the seniors should be allowed to make their own decisions. They are, after all, adults.

He said one man at the center told him "'senior citizens not senile citizens."'

William Huestis, director of the county's Office for the Aging, said what started as a good idea of having free doughnuts has turned around. His staff is against handing out the free treats, because the elderly have more health problems.

About a thousand seniors total head to the county's five nutrition centers each day for lunch.

[JetPhoto 626]

I think on October 1st I'm gonna drive fast, crash not get ALS treatment that will affect my overall outcome of recovery and I'll be suing the county...if I die I will make sure my family sues for even more! How can you get rid of a service that you already provide that makes the difference between life and death? (I'll make sure I'm in the middle of the county were there is no place to land a medevac....)

Unfortunately the only way to have county wide ALS is for the county to run it and not contract out for it. The southern states have been doing it for years and they seem to do OK with it.

[helicopper 1,050]

No one will need ALS support now that they don't serve donuts at the senior centers anymore.

http://www.wnbc.com/news/13856793/detail.html

You know the sad part? Five thousand people will complain about the donuts and 50 will complain about the loss of ALS so they'll restore the donuts and still not fund the ALS!

Or more typical of this backward county, they won't fund either and there will be no ALS for the unconscious hypoglycemics at the Senior Centers!

Truly pathetic!

[Guest partyrock]

I think on October 1st I'm gonna drive fast, crash not get ALS treatment that will affect my overall outcome of recovery and I'll be suing the county...if I die I will make sure my family sues for even more! How can you get rid of a service that you already provide that makes the difference between life and death? (I'll make sure I'm in the middle of the county were there is no place to land a medevac....)

Unfortunately the only way to have county wide ALS is for the county to run it and not contract out for it. The southern states have been doing it for years and they seem to do OK with it.

Be careful with that one. EMS, let alone ALS is not guaranteed by any level of government.

[fitzjr11 17]

What my question is that can the DOH allow Putnam County operate with out ALS? Being an officer in my department, if this actually follows through and there is no more ALS as of 10/1, then fire departments and VAC's are going to have to look to contact ALS services. I will definatly be at the meeting with pc420 and let them know that we are not going to rest on this issue. What is Putnam County thinking??? I think its time to move to dutchess or westchester county.

PC303/C92

Why wouldn't they let us operate w/o ALS- I'm sure there are departments upstate that don't have ALS, and as far as us caring Epi and all- those are BLS Protocols- shouldn't be an issue. ALS is nice to have, it's convient and helps w/ patient care- but isn't a need in life, it's a want- yes it helped w/ response times and all, but we were providing BLS only till 1994. Unfortunatly instead of going forward we may have to go back.

The county did not say no more ALS, they said no more money towards it- if EMPIRE retracks their increase, or another company come in at same price EMPIRE was at, then ALS will be back. Something will change between now and Oct.

[RescueKujo 130]

posted by fitzjr11 08/10/2007

ALS is nice to have, it's convient and helps w/ patient care- but isn't a need in life, it's a want- yes it helped w/ response times and all, but we were providing BLS only till 1994. Unfortunatly instead of going forward we may have to go back.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you regarding ALS level of service. While it is shown that most calls can be handled by BLS level service, ALS is now the standard of care throughout the country for EMS systems.

Edited August 10, 2007 by RescueKujo

[ckroll 101]

I think on October 1st I'm gonna drive fast, crash not get ALS treatment that will affect my overall outcome of recovery and I'll be suing the county...if I die I will make sure my family sues for even more! How can you get rid of a service that you already provide that makes the difference between life and death? (I'll make sure I'm in the middle of the county were there is no place to land a medevac....)

Unfortunately the only way to have county wide ALS is for the county to run it and not contract out for it. The southern states have been doing it for years and they seem to do OK with it.

Even in jest to put forward the idea of injuring oneself or others to prove a point is irresponsible and something none of us can afford to condone. If the legislature is to be swayed back to reason, we must all be professional in our actions and our words. Thoughtless, emotional behavior on the part of elected officials is no excuse for our own, no matter how good it feels. Someone in this debate needs to keep their focus on community welfare and it apparently is not the 'Magnificent 7'. On all the boards and posts, please, make sure what we say is something we can all be proud of and that reads well even when taken out of context, which we all know it will.

Don't we all have stories [that can be cleansed of identifying details] of lives we've improved by prompt care? Here is not the place, but meetings of the legislature are. We can ask to be put on the agenda and we can speak to legislators privately, we could...gasp...even write letters.

As for county run.... unless or until there is competent management, and we are in this mess for a reason, I think that Putnam has shown itself incapable of managing something as critical as ALS. Contract out to people who know what they are doing.

[RescueKujo 130]

Don't we all have stories [that can be cleansed of identifying details] of lives we've improved by prompt care? Here is not the place, but meetings of the legislature are. We can ask to be put on the agenda and we can speak to legislators privately, we could...gasp...even write letters.

Or, if you still are in contact with those patients, you could ask them to go to the meeting. Nothing sounds better than someone telling their own story of survival.

[ajsbear 11]

How can Putnam COunty drop its ALS service? Just remember this is the same county who thinks it's 1960's radio system is "state of the art!"

[ckroll 101]

Why wouldn't they let us operate w/o ALS- I'm sure there are departments upstate that don't have ALS, and as far as us caring Epi and all- those are BLS Protocols- shouldn't be an issue. ALS is nice to have, it's convient and helps w/ patient care- but isn't a need in life, it's a want- yes it helped w/ response times and all, but we were providing BLS only till 1994. Unfortunatly instead of going forward we may have to go back.

The county did not say no more ALS, they said no more money towards it- if EMPIRE retracks their increase, or another company come in at same price EMPIRE was at, then ALS will be back. Something will change between now and Oct.

This post makes good points, and as there are A LOT of people out there who feel this way, lets address it.

Back in 1994, and it may have been earlier than that... I was a vollie EMT [ still am] with 500 over calls who woke up to the news we were getting bumped off the 'good calls' by Paramedics and said just what this person said, Don't need it, don't want it, almost never makes a difference. And I continued to feel that way right up the time a 45 year old fellow with young children was having a massive heart attack. That was when I recognised that I didn't need a medic and that I didn't want a medic. The patient did. If we are here for ourselves, then ALS gets in the way of the fun, if we are here for the patient, then ALS is a tool we cannot afford to lose.

I was first in with nothing but oxygen and good intentions. That this man was dying in front of his family was as obvious to them as it was to me. For a second we looked at each other and all started to cry. I picked up the house phone and told dispatch to expedite everything. The medic walks in, says Yeah, it's a heart attack, "But I can fix that." He called for orders, pushed meds and by the time the ambulance got there the fellow was pink and out of pain. When you've stood there wanting to help and watching someone slip away, then you are a convert to ALS.

It's going to be maybe $5 more per person in the county, that's $20 bucks a family. That's not lunch at McDonald's. That's certainly not a trip to the movies. Ask any person in this county... 'Will you donate $20 to help a family whose child was struck by a car, to help a family who lost their father to a heart attack, to help an elderly woman who has fallen down the stairs?' and I think they would say yes.

If a person would do that, then a person should understand why ALS is what a compassionate and caring community provides to all its residents.

However you feel on the issue, find your voices and make yourselves heard.

[Guest]

Several people make great points in this thread; I’d like to add my 2 cents. My opinion and my opinion only is the county legislators who unanimously voted against increasing funds for ALS coverage are either, 1.) Severely ignorant of what the capabilities and benefits of ALS care are or, 2.) they are playing a potentially deadly political game.

Point #1 is why residents of Putnam County need to lobby for what they believe in and educate the people that you voted for, and are supposed to have your best interest at hand. You may have to remind them of this and promise not to vote them in again if they don’t look out for your best interest in this matter.

Point # 2 is really scary. If the legislators think they can strong arm commercial companies to operate at a loss, they are wrong. Empire will not be there Oct 1st if they do not get the funds needed to operate. The other commercial services in the area all have similar operating expenses and if Empire is loosing you can be sure they will be to. So with no ALS coverage, and someone dies, you can be sure that Putnam county will be brought to civil court (at the very least) in a wrongful death suit. The have set a standard of care by bringing in ALS and it is negligence on their part for removing it. Guess who pays for that settlement, the Putnam County tax payers and you can be sure it would be cheaper to contract for the ALS coverage.

The McD’s price comparison is great. Also relates to how much EMT’s get paid compared to McD’s. Hmmm!? Maybe McD’s could branch out into health care. Then we would get cheap ambulance coverage, good pay AND a milkshake.

[ckroll 101]

Several people make great points in this thread; I’d like to add my 2 cents. My opinion and my opinion only is the county legislators who unanimously voted against increasing funds for ALS coverage are either, 1.) Severely ignorant of what the capabilities and benefits of ALS care are or, 2.) they are playing a potentially deadly political game.

The legislator from Putnam Valley, Sam Oliverio voted to fund ALS. Putnam Valley also covered almost all of their own calls and I believe 15 mutual aid calls last month. Good EMS has to start with communities pulling together and keeping their legislators informed.

[INIT915 1,119]

A little off the topic, but how did Empire submit their bid so far off from what it actually costs?

Was this an honest mistake, or were they playing games submitting a low-ball bid and now have been caught with their pants down?

And, how was the contract written between Empire and the County that allowed them to pull-out? Did the County have any penalty clauses added in to prevent this from happening?

[jps385 0]

A little off the topic, but how did Empire submit their bid so far off from what it actually costs?

Was this an honest mistake, or were they playing games submitting a low-ball bid and now have been caught with their pants down?

And, how was the contract written between Empire and the County that allowed them to pull-out? Did the County have any penalty clauses added in to prevent this from happening?

The contract was written as 1 year with option to renew. There is a 90 day termination clause which allow either party to terminate the contract with 90 days notice. This is standard just about every contract out there. As far as low balling the bid, thye were only about 50K less than Alamo. At the time everyone was low balling contracts (look around Dutchess-Transcare, Mobile Life, Alamo, and NDP) to get business from one another. These comapnies finally woke up (look at what happened to Pawling) and are no longer able or willing to lose money like this. At the same time if you look at the RFP that Putnam put out it appears that there are alot more call than there really are.

[x635 4,066]

Excellent post ckroll!! Very well said!

[DOC22 1]

Having read a post on a local website, it's pretty bovious that at least some members of the Board of Leslislators in this County do need to be educated, not only of the benefits of ALS but the difference between an EMT and a Paramedic.

[ckroll 101]

The contract was written as 1 year with option to renew. There is a 90 day termination clause which allow either party to terminate the contract with 90 days notice. This is standard just about every contract out there. As far as low balling the bid, thye were only about 50K less than Alamo. At the time everyone was low balling contracts (look around Dutchess-Transcare, Mobile Life, Alamo, and NDP) to get business from one another. These comapnies finally woke up (look at what happened to Pawling) and are no longer able or willing to lose money like this. At the same time if you look at the RFP that Putnam put out it appears that there are alot more call than there really are.

Ahh, if memory serves, year end 2005 is when the PCBES put out its famous [locally] year end report based on its brand new numbers from its brand new CAD system that said there were 48, 437 emergency calls in Putnam County in the year prior. Most agencies were credited with 2 to 3 times the calls they actually answered and it was later explained when the tones were hit, it counted as a call. That said, if an agency were bidding based on call volume and used county numbers at that time, they might have been off by a factor of 2 or 3. Just a hunch.

[Goose 188]

I'm pretty sure the County only has about 5,000 or so EMS calls yearly.

As another note, does anyone know if its now a requirement that a municipality provide ALS services?

Edited August 10, 2007 by Goose

[helicopper 1,050]

Having read a post on a local website, it's pretty bovious that at least some members of the Board of Leslislators in this County do need to be educated, not only of the benefits of ALS but the difference between an EMT and a Paramedic.

Doc, can you provide a link to the post ?

[smwells 7]

I think the PC Legislature is nuts making this decision, but being an election year no one up in carmel wants thier name assoicated with spending any more taxpayer money, than the County Exec alreeady did with his latest tax increase..

Remember the contract ends on 10/1 and we have to decide to vote for many of these legislators on 11/6. And I think the County Exec is up this year also... Make your voice heard, tell your legislator what you really think of thier decision

From PutnamcountyNY.com webpage

Phone: 845-225-8690

E-mail: putcoleg@putnamcountyny.com

Sam Oliverio, Jr. - 914-414-5768

Terry N. Intrary -

Mary F. Conklin - (845)406-1002 - PCDist4@aol.com

Mary Ellen Odell -

Tony Hay - 845-278-6747

Dan Birmingham -

Robert McGuigan, Jr. - Putnamcounty8@RCN.com

Regina Morini

[ckroll 101]

I'm pretty sure the County only has about 5,000 or so EMS calls yearly.

As another note, does anyone know if its now a requirement that a municipality provide ALS services?

PCBES 2006 lists 4,400 dispatches of medics, so that is about right.

As a homeowner in the Adirondacks, I can tell you that there is very little ALS in the north country and what there is is provided by EMT-CCs, not paramedics. There is not the call volume to sustain it and the distances are huge. REMAC protocols tend to be restrictive with some regions not permitting any interventions on a child beyond CPR without contact with medical control. Most will let you clear a spine in the field, however.

For practical purposes many areas don't even have what we would consider useful BLS. And if you have ever been caught in a "Boot Drive", you see ambulances so old that we wouldn't even use them for extrication practice. What we pay for 1 vehicle represents 10 years of total budget for some agencies. Rigs too old for them get sent down South.

[Don't have cable either, or garbage collection, or town parks, or senior centers, or zoning, or planning boards. Got guns and snowmobiles and great roads. Quizzically, the taxes are about the same.]

That said, Saranac Lake has volunteer helicopter service, North Country Life Flight.

YES, you can live without ALS.... You can die without it also.