Extrication Tool: Your thoughts?

[Fex404 0]

My department is currently purchasing a new tool (full compliment) and replacing a full system on another truck. I am asking for everyones thoughts and experiences with different companies. Good and Bad.

Some companies considering are: Hurst, Amkus, Halmotro, TNT, Genesis....etc...

Thank you in advance....

[ryefd192 2]

I've had experience with both the Hurst and Holmatro tools. Personally I prefer the Holmatro as I find it easier to use. The tools are lighter and I find the grip style control to be easier to use. That said, the Hurst tools I have used are the slightly older and I believe Hurst has some newer stuff that is lighter weight and has more ease of operation that I have not had the opportunity to use, but I'm sure someone else will have.

[fireman2138 0]

Ive only really experienced Hurst and I am satisfied with them as such.. I know they are planning to release or have released a new core system on the tools with one twist lock adapter which can retrofit to the old tools with two hoses as well as the newer single hose system.

[DOC22 1]

We currently use Amkus, and have no problems at all The tools are a little heavy, but not too much for 1 or 2 guys to operate.

[firemoose827 324]

We currently use the TNT system, its a lot easier for one firefighter to set up and use, the tools are light, the hydraulic hose system is easy to engage/disengage, there are a variety of attachments, the power unit is small, lightweight, and easy to use, and everything fits nicely into our compartments. We recently purchased this unit a year ago, but we still have the old Kinman on our rescue as well for a backup.

Kinmans are the electric tools you hook up to a car-sized battery via cables, they still pack a punch and do their job, but its bulky, heavy, and cumbersome, usually takes two guys to work safely.

I have only worked with the old Kinman (Both my old dept and this one) and the TNT. I feel TNT are an excellent tool system, not the top of the line, but a good, affordable powerful system.

Good Luck

Moose

[Guest partyrock]

The strongest, most powerful and durable extrication tools are Hurst. The new centurion MOC Ultra cutter has over 200,000 lbs of cutting force at the notch and nearly as much power throughout the blade. Most cutters are significantly weaker the closer you get to the tips. Between hursts materials and blade geometry almost all of the force can be handled throughout the blade. The MOC cutter is also very fast with a rather large bite.

In a spreader I personally like Hursts older spreaders. They were big and heavy at over 75lbs, but they were unbeatable. However the new Sen S32 is an excellent tool. Not only is it one of the largest spreads available but its the strongest.

Hursts draw back is they're expensive and heavy. The thumb trigger isn't always the most popular with people either. If you have the manpower and you're covering an area with a lot of serious wrecks Hurst is the tool I would go with.

If you want the best combination of technology, quality, and ease of use then Holmatro is tops. Their tools are cutting edge, extremely light, and top quality.

I'm not a fan of TNT and Lucas is just a cheap Hurst tool (Lucas and Hurst are both part of the same company since the mid 90's) Side by side neither can hold up to Holmatro or Hurst. Bottom line is get a few cars and the tools your dept is considering purchasing and go to work with them. Use them side by side and let the members get in on it. They're the ones who are going to have to use it in the end.

A couple of side notes, save some money and dump the rams. These days a 32" and even a 26" spreader can easily do most of the jobs performed by rams. Stay away from combi tools. They don't do either job particularly well. The cutter suffers the most on the combi tube and on todays cars the cutter is most effective tool.

[ny10570 745]

Recently got a chance to put our Hurst up against a Holmatro and TNT (I think). The Hurst spanked them. All though, I have to admit for ease of use I'd rather Pleasantville had Holmatro. I just think for the small amount of extrication we do and the inconsistent manpower Holmatro would be a better choice.

[Monty 35]

I worked with Holmatro, and now occasionally with Hurst (very old toolset). I've also done classes with TNT and Lucas. Personally I much prefer the Holmatro. Admittedly my experience with Hurst is biased as the tools I've used are antiques, so maybe the newer ones are much different.

The only problem with the Holmatro, although I think probably with others, is that it could be a real pig to get the pressure out of the lines to change them (connecting/disconnecting couplings).

I do prefer the cutters, but I think the combi tool has its place. We used to run with those two preconnected. For an 'average' car, the combi tool was enough for any spreading and light enough to maneuver easily enough. If needed, it could also do some cutting. If you can only get two, get cutters and spreaders, but try and get all three. I agree that for pure vehicle extrication, lose the rams.

The other tool I very much like to have on hand is a sawzall with a good demolition blade.

[fyrlt17 13]

First: I would like to ask “What type of tool are you replacing”.

Second: “Why”?

Third: Can your department justify the cost of replacing the whole unit and all its components?

Replacing the whole unit or switching manufacturers just because you think you need to may not be the best use of Tax payer’s dollars.

Switching manufacturers creates training issues within the department that have to be addressed before the new unit can be put in service, and don’t forget to include the cost of training on the new tool in your budget. Speaking of training who is going to train you on this new tool?

I would have to say that pound for pound Holmatro is the best in our industry today its light and more maneuverable than Hurst. Hurst is absolutely the strongest in the industry and has tools that are light but not as light as Holmatro. Hurst is the standard that all other tools are measured by though.

One other thought Hurst Fluid (Phosphate Easter) vs. Mineral oil

My department has four front line Hurst Tools and one spare unit

3- 32A spreaders

1- 32B Spreader

1- ML-28 Spreader

4- O-Cutters

1- Extractor Cutter

1- JL-Moc II Cutter

3- Onboard DC Power units

4- 4 Stroke Portable power units

And all the assorted equipment that goes with them.

I teach AVET for Westchester County and NY State and have the opportunity to use every ones tools and I say with experience that right now POUND for POUND that Holmatro Is a great tool.

[Guest]

We did a side by side with our Hurst and a Holmatro demo. I found the Hurst more powerful and faster. The Holmatro was a little easier to use with the hand controll. The Hurst was more durable. We have some tools that are still working well after twenty nine years (32"jaws). Over the years we have worked these tools hard. Our older cutters (20 years old) had some trouble cutting the specialty metals used in todays automobiles. The new cutters works just fine. With upgrades to current tools and new tools that meet the challenges of todays autos. I'm happy with the Hurst equipment we have.

[Guest partyrock]

Monty mentioned the Sawzall, just a word to the wise DO NOT CUT GLASS WITH A SAWZALL. Even with a very course tooth blade you are still getting alot of fine glass particulate into the air that you and your patient is going to breath in. For the patient its probably no big deal, but for us who train with this stuff and use countless times over our career you are going to kill yourself. In studies concerning the damage different particulate can cause to the respiratory system glass is much worse then silica, fiberglass, and even asbestos. Use your glass master or an axe.

[fireman3484 1]

my volly department runs a full set of hurst tools. ive done classes with holmatro and amkus, my feeling is the hurst beats them hands down. they are a little bit pricey and im not a fan of the thumb control, but we have never had a problem with these tools. the technology out there these days is incredible so do your homework and get whats best for your men and your budget.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Monty mentioned the Sawzall, just a word to the wise DO NOT CUT GLASS WITH A SAWZALL. Even with a very course tooth blade you are still getting alot of fine glass particulate into the air that you and your patient is going to breath in. For the patient its probably no big deal, but for us who train with this stuff and use countless times over our career you are going to kill yourself. In studies concerning the damage different particulate can cause to the respiratory system glass is much worse then silica, fiberglass, and even asbestos. Use your glass master or an axe.

We found the Glassmaster also puts out plenty of small particles. One idea that we've heard and tried is using a line of shaving cream to cut through with the Sawzall. The cream holds most of the dust. But in the end, a firefighter who has used the Glassmaster just a few times can be nearly as fast.

As for the tools: We put Hurst, Holamtro and Amkus to the test before deciding what to replace our 70's vintage stuff. Holmatro (with CORE hose) came out on top overall.

[RescueKujo 130]

I have used both the Hurst and Amkus, both with good results. I didn't have a preference, as it was more the ability of the tool man that determined how it went. I think antiquefirelt said it best. Get with your local dealers, they have demos to try, and use them in a training environment. Get your best tool man and your least experienced person and let them have at it. Base your decisions on needs and ability to train your people. You don't want something so intricate that your least experienced people can't learn.

[Fex404 0]

I thank everyone for their imput. Has anyone every used Genisus?

Also we have chiefs and commisioners who are taking care of the why and how much. I am strictly asking about your experience with the tools and what little tidbits you may have that would help out.

[Guest partyrock]

The glass master does still create a lot of glass dust, but its the fine particulate that the high speed sawzall blade is great at creating. The shaving cream makes sense. All though I'm sure you get a few looks the first time someone see's you throwing that on the glass.

[Guest firediver55]

I'll take my chance of someone looking at me funny for using shaving cream than the look I'd get from somone swinging a freakin' axe at the windshield!!!

[ny10570 745]

Come on now, be real. No one is swinging the axe like a madman to take out a window. I think the cutter and jaws are a lot scarier than someone removing the window with an axe.

[Guest firediver55]

You're right, I'm unrealistic. NO ONE would ever swing an axe like a madman. Guess your Dept. has the cream of the crop.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I've had the privilidge to operate pretty much every major brand out there and I'm preferential to Holmatro. They are progressive, their tools operate well and with the ones I've been around have required little to no maintenance. As far as strength vs. hurst most of their literature boasts that for some models its the same or even better. In addition their units are a lot smaller then hurst also for the same strength. Fast isn't an issue to me, as long as it is not like your using a hand pump I'm ok. I want safe, consistant speed. You also cannot beat Holmatro's Core Technology hose. The choices of ram sizes and their operation I also enjoy over the others. They have a 50" 2 stage ram that was available for me to use during an AVET course I was teaching and bent the car in half when we displaced the dashboard. The front bumper was on the ground. At that time, the 1st stage of that ram was the strongest on the market.

As far as glassmasters, sawzalls, shaving cream etc. I have a few points on this:

1. I prefer doing reverse roof flaps. Quick tap across the bottom of the windshield with a axe or hand axe and put the roof on the engine hood. No worry about particles. Otherwise it is what it is. The glassmaster does make the glass into fine particulate, but if your patient is covered properly (seperate issue from stabilization which is mentioned below) it isn't that much of a huge issue. Whatever you choose, make sure you train often, understand the risk vs. benefit, make a decisions and know the risks.

2. Shaving cream? In many departments I operate around the talk and training preaches stabilization with cribbing and when the real deal occurs its the first thing that is bypassed. Who's gonna remember to spray shaving cream? I have toyed with during training evolutions of spraying tempered glass with spray adhesive and that works well most of the time.

[antiquefirelt 994]

2. Shaving cream? In many departments I operate around the talk and training preaches stabilization with cribbing and when the real deal occurs its the first thing that is bypassed. Who's gonna remember to spray shaving cream? I have toyed with during training evolutions of spraying tempered glass with spray adhesive and that works well most of the time.

I have to admit we've tried the shaving cream in training with decent success but have yet to use it in the field as we also tend to do a forward flap. I'm interested in the spray adhesive though, I would think the flying particles would need the mas of the shaving cream type substance to catch the majority. In training the particles on the outside are nearly zero, but what minimal particles are not caught all seem to be on the inside. This means you still must cover the patient and protect personnel operating inside the vehicle. Generally the victim would by on NRB anyway reducing the chance of them inhaling the dust. Dust masks for other rescuers? Like ALS said, it works great in the parking lot. We keep the Barbosol with the Glassmaster and Sawzall along with some other materials to make edges and cut ends safe.