Hawthorne FD Quint

[SteveOFD 176]

From The Journal News legal section 7/06/07 - "...sealed bids will be received by the Board of Fire Commissioners of the Hawthorne Fire District...on July 19, 2007 for the purchase of a 75' Single Axle Quint Aerial Ladder Fire Truck".

[mfc2257 464]

I applaude that move.... Getting out of the saturated mid-Westchester/Mt. Pleasant tower ladder market

Good for them... So what's it going to be... Meanstick, HME/Smeal, KME?????????????????

[Guest voeltz 234]

were almost 100% sure were going with ALF.

[Guest partyrock]

open bid or guided bid?

[SteveOFD 176]

With New Rochelle having Ladder 12 and Hawthorne having Tower Ladder 12, I wonder if Hawthorne will opt for a new number for this Ladder?

According to the current Westchester County Apparatus List, Ladder 54 is still available. Maybe bring back the "54" number with memories of the old Engine 154?

[Guest voeltz 234]

The new quint will be called LADDER 56, since its replacing engine 156.

[stephen morea 1]

so its replacing an engine, not the tower?

[DCurtis 1]

I dont know, Im not too experienced, but replacing an engine with a quint is fundamentally flawed. Yes you can pump with it and use it as an attack engine, and yes you can use it as a ladder. But you have to choose between one or the other. First issue I could see is manpower, it takes a lot of people to run it as both, you need a full crew to carry out ladder ops, or a full crew to carry out an interior attack (full crew being, 3-4 people). The second thing I see, is positioning. To properly position as an engine you need to pull past, and to be a ladder, you need to be in front, you cant really be in two places at once. Granted rig positioning isnt always a standard thing, but just on the theoretical level. I may be wrong about these, and Im sure there are ways around these issues, but still, it doesnt seem right. Either way, good luck with your purchase!

[Guest partyrock]

Its nice to see some of the younger guys admitting they don't know everything. There's alot more here that would be better cleared up by someone who knows Hawthorns SOP's, but here are some basics. Truth be told a line can be handled with two guys when you have to. 3 would be preferred and 4 ideal, but 2 good ff's can get the initial attack going. As for truck work, what jobs is the dept expecting to get accomplished at the start. Most of Mt. Pleasant is 1 to 2 story wood frame residential. OV can be started by one ff with a roof ladder and 6' hook. Entry isn't gonna face a lot of high security doors. Probably mostly wooden doors with a deadbolt. Figure 2 ff's for entry and search. You could roll that rig with 4 ff's, officer, and chauffeur.

The only reason for pulling the engine past the structure is to leave room for the ladder. When they're the same truck you can finally line the cross lays up with the front door.

Keep in mind you aren't going to be able to run the whole incident like this, this is just an example of what could be done with a first due quint.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Partyrock pretty much hit the nail on the head, one apparatus in front to handle what is needed most. One driver, an officer and two to three FFs can do a heck of a lot of knockdown/ initial ventilation at a fire. Maybe some of the Hawthorne guys could answer this a little better, but are they looking at having a quint that could theoretically handle and incident by itself, with the limited manpower during daytime hours.

[Guest]

an interesting twist to this topic, I have heard that during the fire in tarrytown the other day, Hawthorne's E156 caught fire. Any truth to this?

[Guest voeltz 234]

Our engine did not catch fire we had a prob with the radiator.

[ex-commish 490]

Its nice to see some of the younger guys admitting they don't know everything. There's alot more here that would be better cleared up by someone who knows Hawthorns SOP's, but here are some basics. Truth be told a line can be handled with two guys when you have to. 3 would be preferred and 4 ideal, but 2 good ff's can get the initial attack going. As for truck work, what jobs is the dept expecting to get accomplished at the start. Most of Mt. Pleasant is 1 to 2 story wood frame residential. OV can be started by one ff with a roof ladder and 6' hook. Entry isn't gonna face a lot of high security doors. Probably mostly wooden doors with a deadbolt. Figure 2 ff's for entry and search. You could roll that rig with 4 ff's, officer, and chauffeur.

The only reason for pulling the engine past the structure is to leave room for the ladder. When they're the same truck you can finally line the cross lays up with the front door.

Keep in mind you aren't going to be able to run the whole incident like this, this is just an example of what could be done with a first due quint.

That was the intent of buying the quint. Like most depts we at times are short on manpower so with a rig like this you can accomplish several tasks with 6 people which our avarage response daytime will bring 6-10 plus with our dual response policy will bring a few more.

I am not totally sold on the quint concept as I feel an engine is an engine and a truck is a truck but I guess times are dictating the quint.

[x635 4,066]

A quint can effectively be used if the incident commanders are fluid with their thinking, and preplanning and SOP's are created. Also, if operators are trained properly, a quint can effectievly deploy it's stick and stretch lines. I've seen it done succesfully in a number of diverse municipalities.

A pump on a ladder, although it does take up space, allows the truck to establish it's own water supply, something that can be beneficial, especially at large scale incidents.

However, a Quint should NEVER be used as a fix-it for staffing issues. You need an engine and truck for manpower, no matter how much apparatus of whatever types you have on scene, it's never a replacement for the labor-intensive firefighting effort.

[Guest]

Other than it being cheaper and being titled "ladder company," can someone tell me why you wouldn't get a ladder truck or tower ladder without a pump?? Because those two excuses i mentioned really don't seem to be to adequate to me...

[Guest]

departments that are properly manned do not need to rely on truck companies to establish water supplies as they rely on their engine companies to accomplish that task. A very good example of this would be new york city, where they know they have several engine companies en route. This allows the truck company to have more space on their truck for other equipment, and to concentrate on their duties.

[Guest]

departments that are properly manned do not need to rely on truck companies to establish water supplies as they rely on their engine companies to accomplish that task. A very good example of this would be new york city, where they know they have several engine companies en route. This allows the truck company to have more space on their truck for other equipment, and to concentrate on their duties.

ah..."properly manned" not every vollie company can consider themselves "properly manned" every time, not just the calls that get dispatched as "good calls."

i don't believe running w/ a driver, brand new interior "officer," 1 or 2 brand new interior crew members and a junior corps constitutes as "properly manned," but you see it all the time. (and this is in no way an attack on hawthorne, it happens everywhere)

[ny10570 745]

Other than it being cheaper and being titled "ladder company," can someone tell me why you wouldn't get a ladder truck or tower ladder without a pump?? Because those two excuses i mentioned really don't seem to be to adequate to me...

huh? I think you're asking why not put a pump on every truck. Cost is a very adequate excuse. The cost of the pump training and maintenance of it. If you have good water supplies and plenty of engines responding then spend that extra money on new equipment, a tic in every rig, radios for every member, PSS devices for every member, the list goes on. There is a finite amount of money available.

Then there is space considerations. A pump takes up a lot of space on a truck and I have yet to meet a truckie who had extra space on his rig with nothing he wanted to put in there.

[mfc2257 464]

Sounds like some people are only thinking inside the box when it comes to Quints... By nature, Quint operations require an outside the box thought process. Departments that operate Quint's may do so for a wide varity of reasons that include cost, lack of station space, staffing concerns, or just the overall demographics of their district. In a box area with lots houses set back from the road with narrow driveways, a Quint isn't a bad choice because you have most (not everything) you need for initial truck operations and initial engine operations fitting in one small area in the driveway. Some departments name thier Quints as engines because that is what their focus is... others name them trucks because that is the focus. When Millwood takes delivery of their new 75ft Sutphen Quint I believe it should be badged as an engine as their main focus has never been truck op's. Katonah may consider the same.

I fully believe that departments that operate Quints need to train not only on engine op's and truck op's, but also Quint op's....

What I mean by this, is that you need to add certain thought processes (especially if you are a first arriving officer) as to how to utilize your Quint. What do the fire conditions dictate? What is the layout of the fire property like? What room do I have for additional resources? Do I want to commit the crew riding on the Quint to truck op's or engine op's....

The last point I believe is the most important one. Having an OIC commit between truck or engine op's for the initial crew is vital. THIS is what eliminates many of the problems that people have with using Quints... i.e. "they don't really do one or the other"... If the OIC commits the initial crew to engine op's, then that's ALL they do. When the next due unit arrives (especially if it is driveway operations) they can take up the role of the truck company (most likely the pump operator will be required to switch and take the turntable and the second due engine operator will take over the Quint's pump panel. It is safer to have the most familiar person working the turntable). When ever possible it is important to ensure that the ladder pipe is supplied seperately from the handlines on the Quint. With modern apparatus design and the more effecient use of space, you truly can equip a Quint with all the equipment of an engine, and most (not all) of the equipment from a truck.

Individual departments have their reasons for what they do. Truck, Engine, or Quint. So long as the reasons why they purchase equipment are in line with the needs of the community, then the old though of "truck is truck", "engine is engine" can be blended together to better serve the community.

Now... In full disclosure, I prefer truck work, Soooo... I'd prefer to ride a dedicated truck any day of the week.

Edited August 14, 2007 by mfc2257